Servicing your own regs

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Mattleycrue76
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Servicing your own regs

Post by Mattleycrue76 »

I'm curious. Where do you learn to service regs? How long does it take and how much does it cost? And when doing your own service work how much do the parts run for a typical anual overhaul on one first stage and two second stages?
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by fmerkel »

I took a diver class UWS gave that actually lasted 2 days and covered equip maintenance at a much greater depth than most non-shop folks ever get. With a background in machining (a whole year) and bike mechanic (many years) I have the aptitude and attitude to jump in. The tech at the time was open to me coming in on days when one of the benches was available and I'd over haul my reg, they'd supply parts at cost, and I'd have him for a backup. The management put a stop to that (liability) after a couple years.

The BIG (really big) problem is getting parts. No one will sell them. The actual value of the replaceable parts is likely a few $$ since it's mostly O-rings. That's why many regs have a lifetime supply of parts if serviced annually. The cost of parts is completely overwhelmed by the cost of service.

I've done some internet scrounging/searching, found most of the manuals, found some parts for some regs, and managed to do a score on some stuff on a shop going out of business, but when I run out of parts I guess I'll have to let the shop do it again.

It's not terribly hard if you have a decent mechanical ability and gather a few specialized tools. BUT, I make SURE to NOT do my own and my wife's reg at the SAME time and MAKE SURE we are really good buddies on that first dive after service.

Time-likely 2-4 hours/reg. Frankly I do a more thorough job servicing EVERY part in the entire reg. How often do you think the O-rings on your LP quick connects or the spool to your gauges get serviced? Those are some of the hardest working parts of the entire system with a lot of environmental exposure. They usually fail with minor leaks quite often.

One of the major advantages of really knowing how a reg works is being able to trouble shoot a reg in the field, sometimes fix it, occasionally say with confidence that the problem is minor and the dive can continue with servicing later, or tell someone that they have a real issue and should not dive until the problem is fixed.

BTW-I find one of the most over looked parts to fail just before a dive is the BC inflator. Those things seen to never get serviced.
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loanwolf
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by loanwolf »

I service all my own gear and have for 30yrs. I will not let anyone but a few people I know very well touch my regs, they are my life support. you paid money for a class then they will not sell you the parts that is BS.

You can get the tools you need here.

http://www.scubatools.com/t-store.aspx

Pick up a ultrasonic cleaner at Harbor Fright for about $30.00 for the smaller one.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... umber=3305

PM me about the rest. Here in the states they have made agreements with the distributors that they will only sell parts to official shops. But overseas it is different you want the parts you just buy them.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by fmerkel »

ScubaTools - that used to be Peter Built. Haven't looked a that site in a long while. Good stuff.

Appreciate the link for the sonic cleaner. Is it decent? Some of the HF stuff is just crap but there are occasional gems.
I've been using plain old white vinegar for a long time.

The class I took went into depth on recreational maintenance and though we opened up our regs it was not a reg service class. They were clear that it was for information only. That part I've mostly learned on my own. Take 'em apart, clean, put back together. Digital cameras help a LOT.

For other folks reading this let me be clear-this is not something to take up casually unless you have some decent mechanical ability and want to stick with it. I service my stuff 1-2x/year, not 8-15 regs/day like a technician. I need to drag out the manuals, camera, and pay really close attention every time I do this.

A good way to play around is get a dead/dud reg and have at. Try to make it work again. My first effort is ONLY for filling tires but that's because I couldn't get 1st stage seals. Some stuff just becomes obsolete (can you say Dacor?).
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loanwolf
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by loanwolf »

The best thing to do is actually take a servicing class if you want to service your gear. I was under the impression that is what you were talking about. They are usually 1 maybe 2 day classes. not much too it. but it is nice to have a digital camera handy when doing it.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by BDub »

fmerkel wrote:Appreciate the link for the sonic cleaner. Is it decent? Some of the HF stuff is just crap but there are occasional gems.
I've been using plain old white vinegar for a long time.
I have the HF ultrasonic cleaner (not the $30 one, the $60) and it's work solid for at least 2 or 3 years now. I don't really use it for anything other valves and reg parts, but I use it quite a bit and it still works great.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by camerone »

loanwolf wrote:The best thing to do is actually take a servicing class if you want to service your gear. I was under the impression that is what you were talking about. They are usually 1 maybe 2 day classes. not much too it. but it is nice to have a digital camera handy when doing it.
Or just buy the Airspeed Press book online at http://www.airspeedpress.com. It'll take you through everything you need to be reasonable at what you're doing. Frankly, the PeterBuilt (scubatools) book was better, but either will suffice.

Manuals are online for most of the common regs: see http://www.frogkick.dk They're all more or less alike, anyway, within the categories of regs (piston, diaphram, unbalanced, balanced, etc.)

For tools, Magnehelic gauges (-3 - 0 - +3) are about $30 on eBay and are helpful, but not necessary, when doing second stages. A sink or bucket of water works almost as well, but is less interesting. Also, you WILL need to buy a Scuba IP gauge while you're shopping there. There are a few other minor tools that are helpful. If you have a decent toolbox already, then you need about $100-$200 in supplies, depending on what regs you have and what you already have. Things like pin-spanners for Apeks first stages, thin wrenches for Poseidons, etc... minor specific stuff.

The only chemicals you really need are vinegar, Simple Green, and christolube, plus good ole' water. The ultrasonic bath is more or less essential to doing a good job. Harbor Freight or FleaBay are fine, but a little larger one is helpful if you're doing more than one reg at a time.

Finally, parts kits - eithe buy regs like DiveRite or Salvo that simply openly sell parts (yea for the good guys!), or find yourself a source. Most of us with sources for the mainline brands guard them pretty well; I have a few suppliers when the stupid manufacturers start to get pissy with one or another. Phil Ellis of DiveSports.com is a real stand-up guy, though, and publicly just sells Apeks, Aqualung, and Dive Rite through his site directly: http://www.divesports.com/Regulator-Reb ... -s/180.htm. I dive Apeks, so I'm covered, although before he publicly pushed them out, I had a few other places to get parts. ScubaPro is notoriously difficult to get for some reason, which is one more reason I dive Apeks...

FWIW, I have some old Beuchats lying around that are phenominal regulators, too, but don't have kits any more. I found a dive shop on the East Coast going out of business and cleaned out their entire Beuchat parts inventory, so I'm good for the next decade or so. If by chance you need older Beuchat parts kits, I've got enough to spare that I'm willing to sell.

Ooh...to the time question: a TX 50 second stage takes 15-20 minutes start to finish to completely overhaul and retune, but I've done more than I can count on them. The first stages, if they're going smoothly take about a half an hour to forty-five minutes, mostly because they need some cycling time to let the seat set up and get the IP to lock good. So, about an hour for a first/second stage start to finish is what I factor. It's actually faster to batch them all up, because I can run multiple sets through the ultrasonic cleaner at the same time.
Last edited by camerone on Tue May 19, 2009 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rcontrera
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by rcontrera »

Oh boy ...this is going to be a good one!

I will start off by answering your questions first without comment.

There are formal schools around the world that can teach regulator repair. Costs for those range from $500 to $4500 depending on how thorough. Additionally, most dive shops have their own people learn by hands on training in the repair shop with manufacturer's additional training either in the shop or at clinics. A fully qualified regulator tech will take around 50 hours of instruction and will have worked on at least 150 different regulators.

A typical regulator overhaul for an experienced tech will run anywhere from 1/2 hour for the basic (any monkey can work on these) regulators to over an hour for the more advanced stuff. Costs for the repair parts are all over the board. Assuming retail, you can expect anywhere from about $25 (remember those monkey regulators) to well over $100.



Now the commentary-


I think that answers it. But the big question that you didn't ask was ... "Should I consider servicing my own stuff?"

This has been a long running conversation within the dive industry. Most think that there is money to be made by packaging parts and selling to anyone that wants to buy them. However, since international scuba policy seems to be made by US companies, we are genuinely scared of our customers ... and rightfully so. IF ABC Divers sells Joe Squat the rag salesman parts for their fine regulator via Billy bob's Dive shop and Joe screws things up, his family is surely going to sue ABC Divers and Billy Bob's Dive Shop. In the US, it seems that common sense does not apply in the court room.

Quite a few years ago Dacor lost a big lawsuit for labeling a box "Diving Mask". Seems Joe's son put on a mask and jumped face first into a swimming pool, shattering the glass and embedding one of the fragments deeply into his eye. The tempered glass did what it was supposed to by not allowing large shards, but a small glass "BB" is sharp on all sides and just as dangerous in the eye. while I am sorry that the kid was blinded in one eye, that one little lawsuit took the price of masks from about $10 to well over $20 and forced them as well as most other manufacturers to put lots of silly warnings into all the mask boxes. So this scares the bejeebers out of the manufacturers.

Now all that said, diving equipment service is not rocket science. Anyone that is technically inclined and has the proper schematics should have very few problems working on their own stuff. But keeping one's skills up to a level of "expert" requires keeping his/her hand in by doing a service every week or so. I have trained dive shops in regulator repair in the past for one manufacturer or another as well as my own Scuba Tech 101. But, since I don't do regular service anymore, I have someone else do my personal stuff.

Now if you are just looking at trying to save a few bucks a year, them maybe marbles or kites might be a more affordable hobby. If you want to get intimate with the insides of your scuba gear, try offering to work for a dive shop for free in exchange for service bench training/experience.

(Stepping down from soapbox)

Just my $.02
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by Aquanautchuck »

Good Post Ray. I took a two night class on dive equipment maintenance many years ago. It was handy to have the knowledge to do basic repair on a dive trip. But the main thing I got from it was to have the pro's service my reg's. I have had the same guy do my reg's every year now for 10 years. For me it is worth the bucks.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by Grateful Diver »

During the past few months I've serviced pretty much all my own regs, with help from friends who knew what they were doing. Did the ScubaPro regs with one friend, and the Apeks regs with another. If the experience taught me anything, it's probably that I am not one of those people with the natural aptitude to overhaul regs. While I was able to do it, without their assistance I think the likelihood of screwing something up was pretty high.

For ScubaPro regs, there are a couple specialized tools you need to put the first stages back together properly. For Apeks it's simpler, but you still need a spanner and a torque wrench. Good brass picks are essential for getting o-rings out of tight places without scratching surfaces that you really don't want to scratch.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're a person who's not particularly careful with your gear (I am famous for breaking things that other folks would consider unbreakable), then perhaps servicing your own regs isn't such a neat idea.

That said, parts kits are readily available. I ordered my Apeks kits from Phil Ellis's store (don't recall the name off the top of my head, but I can look up the link later today). I ordered my ScubaPro kits from ScubaToys ... apparently although they are no longer a SP dealer, they are still able to buy and sell those.

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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by LCF »

It's not the expense that makes me keep considering doing my own regs (although doing the twelve first/second stages we now own once a year is not an insignificant expense). It's letting regs out of my hands for WEEKS to get them serviced.

I may be wrong, but my impression from watching a couple done is that the key component you need is meticulous attention to detail.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by Raydar »

I service my own Apeks regs. I think that I'm a bit more conscientious about servicing my life support equipment than some random shop monkey making $10 an hour. (Insert story about working with a former regulator tech who had piss-poor attention to detail.)

As was mentioned, it's not rocket science. Get the tools. Read the literature. Ask the questions. Take your time.

But it all comes down to your level of personal responsibility.

Me? I'm willing to accept responsibility for my own safety. Many people are not. *shrug*
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by Mattleycrue76 »

Hm, Thanks for the link Camerone. It does appear after looking at the price of rebuild kits that there is no financial advantage to doing your own. Most of the rebuild kits are $25-$30. My LDS charges $25 per stage (free parts) and can get my regs in and out in a couple of days so that leaves the area of trust and I think I'm ok in that department also (so far). It was just a question that I've had floating around in my head. As usual this has proven a great place to get some answers.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

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Mattleycrue76 wrote:Hm, Thanks for the link Camerone. It does appear after looking at the price of rebuild kits that there is no financial advantage to doing your own. Most of the rebuild kits are $25-$30. My LDS charges $25 per stage (free parts) and can get my regs in and out in a couple of days so that leaves the area of trust and I think I'm ok in that department also (so far). It was just a question that I've had floating around in my head. As usual this has proven a great place to get some answers.
What LDS is that I am sure most folks on this board what to know as they pay a lot more than that. Becuse parts are usally $30-$70.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by Nwbrewer »

loanwolf wrote:
Mattleycrue76 wrote:Hm, Thanks for the link Camerone. It does appear after looking at the price of rebuild kits that there is no financial advantage to doing your own. Most of the rebuild kits are $25-$30. My LDS charges $25 per stage (free parts) and can get my regs in and out in a couple of days so that leaves the area of trust and I think I'm ok in that department also (so far). It was just a question that I've had floating around in my head. As usual this has proven a great place to get some answers.
What LDS is that I am sure most folks on this board what to know as they pay a lot more than that. Becuse parts are usally $30-$70.

I think Matt is saying he bought the regs with warranty. If he has the LDS do them, he gets free parts from the manufacturer, but has to pay the cost of the service. If he does them himself he saves the cost of the service, but no longer gets the free parts. Since the parts are about the same as the service fee, there is no financial incentive to service them himself. If you are paying for parts AND service, (no warranty) doing the work yourself will save you $$.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by Mattleycrue76 »

Nwbrewer wrote:
loanwolf wrote:
Mattleycrue76 wrote:Hm, Thanks for the link Camerone. It does appear after looking at the price of rebuild kits that there is no financial advantage to doing your own. Most of the rebuild kits are $25-$30. My LDS charges $25 per stage (free parts) and can get my regs in and out in a couple of days so that leaves the area of trust and I think I'm ok in that department also (so far). It was just a question that I've had floating around in my head. As usual this has proven a great place to get some answers.
What LDS is that I am sure most folks on this board what to know as they pay a lot more than that. Becuse parts are usally $30-$70.

I think Matt is saying he bought the regs with warranty. If he has the LDS do them, he gets free parts from the manufacturer, but has to pay the cost of the service. If he does them himself he saves the cost of the service, but no longer gets the free parts. Since the parts are about the same as the service fee, there is no financial incentive to service them himself. If you are paying for parts AND service, (no warranty) doing the work yourself will save you $$.

Yes Thank you that's exactly what I meant. I get free parts from Aqualung/Apeks and the LDS (Smokey Point Diving) charges $25 per stage for labor
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by camerone »

Mattleycrue76 wrote:Yes Thank you that's exactly what I meant. I get free parts from Aqualung/Apeks and the LDS (Smokey Point Diving) charges $25 per stage for labor
Yup, if you're under warranty, it usually doesn't make a lot of sense to DIY the regs, as long as you're getting free parts and your shop has a reasonable turnaround time.

On the other hand, if you picked up used regs, like to shop eBay, Craigslist, or LesurePro, or otherwise are not covered by a warranty, it usually makes a lot of sense to do your own, as the cost savings on the regs initially is huge, often more than 50% than MSRP. The fact that kit price is about at par with service price means that other than time spent, you will come out ahead doing your own.

The other thing is that most manufacturers' warranties are picky about when and how often you have to service to maintain free parts for life... missing your interval can kick you out of the program, and not all warranties will let you back in after a year of paying your own.

I like the control over the process, the parts, and the schedule that doing my own allows me. It's a time suck, but I always know I can trust what I'm breathing, and if something does fail, I know how to correct it myself.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by Nwbrewer »

camerone wrote:... and if something does fail, I know how to correct it myself.
This would be my biggest motivation to do it myself. In second place is waiting weeks while the regs are in to be serviced.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by fmerkel »

I think anyone waiting weeks for reg service should indicate to that shop the wait is unacceptable and find another service.
A number of shops do not do their own service, they send them out. So you have transit time, wasted time, and service time all ganging up on you. Find out where they go and take/mail them there yourself.
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by rcontrera »

This waiting for weeks thing has me baffled! When my wife had her dive shop she had a one week guarantee. If it wasn't done in that time you got free rentals or half off the service ticket. And it wasn't because she didn't do a lot of service. At one point, her shop was the Western regional "Factory" repair center for a major manufacturer. When you sent your regulator to the "factory" for service, it got sent to Tacoma. She had six to eight regulators a week minimum with sometimes that much every day during the season. In one instance, the UPS guy (a diver) brought in three regulators from shops in Oregon and the guys got on them right away. They were ready to go out before the UPS guy was done looking around at stuff!

It always amazes me to see stuff sitting in the incoming service bins and employees sitting on a couch BSing, drinking coffee or reading comic books (yeah ... I actually saw that once while the store owner was cleaning).
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Re: Servicing your own regs

Post by camerone »

Found this vid on YouTube which is kind of helpful if you've never done the servicing before:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X885wEShGkE[/youtube]

While I'm sure there are better vids for training, if you've never seen the inside bits of how a reg goes together (or is manufactured) it's kind of neat and worth a watch.

One question, though, is how they hell they do all that stuff without breaking a fingernail :)
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