How common is deep air? NHZ

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kdupreez
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by kdupreez »

I heard a Narcosis Management® Level 7 card gets you out of a DUI.. you should go try it..

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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Greeves0844 »

spatman wrote:
Greeves0844 wrote:I'm sure you fine gentlemen know way more about deep diving on air then I, but I also think of the part in the book Shadow Divers were they are talking about the effects of deep air, they acknowledge they were slightly impaired and still continued their dives knowing they were not 100% in control of their facilities
...and there's a high body count %age of divers in that book, so maybe not the best material to support deep air.
I by no means am supporting deep air, my original post made was about a course I know that is offered by one of the instructors i know out here on the east coast. Though I do agree deep air is something I myself would never dive and there is a high body count, does that mean anything dangerous should never be attempted?
I only say this not to stir anything up or cause any sorts of issues with this board, but as an active duty Marine who joined after 9/11, while two wars were going on I knew joining was going to be dangerous and there was a high body count but it didn’t scare me away. I just ensured i had the proper training and gear, and also learned from those senior and more experienced before I attempted any such dangerous endeavors.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Greeves0844 »

Having read many posts on scuba board, NetDoc has made many valuable points on this as well as many others about Narcosis and how easily it can happen to anyone, for any reason or any depth.

We all know that there are so many variables that will cause this, so being able to acknowledge yes i am impaired and need to remedy the situation is important. This is how I look at the course i first mentioned, to be able to actually be able to feel the effects and know how to battle them and survive the impairment with no adverse effects, and most importantly make it to the surface not bent or dead
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by thefeve »

Greeves0844 wrote:Though I do agree deep air is something I myself would never dive and there is a high body count, does that mean anything dangerous should never be attempted?
I think the comparison here is maybe a bit different. There has been so much work done by those pioneers before us, that "attempting" deep air still is like going to battle with a muzzle loader. Sure, you can be trained with it, but why would you want to do something like that when there is such a better tool available that is safer, and gives you less handicaps?

I agree its good to be able to spot for yourself when you're feeling impaired/narc'd. Especially diving rec profiles and just knowing you're own personal limits as it effects everyone differently. But I don't think anyone that's had experience diving deep air(maybe has the time in the sport prior to trimix being widely accepted) and that is now trimix trained, could ever agree to anyone willingly doing deep air dives. There's nothing to be gained by it other than saving some $ on gas... simply not worth the risks, no?
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Greeves0844 »

thefeve wrote:
Greeves0844 wrote:Though I do agree deep air is something I myself would never dive and there is a high body count, does that mean anything dangerous should never be attempted?
I think the comparison here is maybe a bit different. There has been so much work done by those pioneers before us, that "attempting" deep air still is like going to battle with a muzzle loader. Sure, you can be trained with it, but why would you want to do something like that when there is such a better tool available that is safer, and gives you less handicaps?

I agree its good to be able to spot for yourself when you're feeling impaired/narc'd. Especially diving rec profiles and just knowing you're own personal limits as it effects everyone differently. But I don't think anyone that's had experience diving deep air(maybe has the time in the sport prior to trimix being widely accepted) and that is now trimix trained, could ever agree to anyone willingly doing deep air dives. There's nothing to be gained by it other than saving some $ on gas... simply not worth the risks, no?
I fully agree, as I have said I am by no means supporting deep air diving any more, my deepest dive at this point in my career is 165 ft. though yes it was on air, I by no means have any plans to go deeper on air, or dive to that depth again on air.

I think the way i originally posted is where ever seems to think i would be diving to that point, the class i mentioned and the instructor i mentioned are what i have observed in my short diving career. The individual who teaches this class has gone to 200 ft. on air, though how often or if he continues to do so i do not know, i just know he offers a course in how to effectively manage Narcosis

As for the military equivalent training, I am an Artillery Marine, and all of my training in manual gunnery applies which most of the manual artillery dates back to WW2, yes there have been updates and we have digital systems that change how we shoot, but at any time i can still accurately engage without the use of a computer. Many marines of the older generations still would rather use this method instead of the digital systems, i look at this the same as deep air, can you still dive deep air? yes you can, nothing stops you from doing this other than evolution of diving which has changed this to no longer be the practice, and is even ridiculed, is there more risk yes, can it be managed if you understand why there is more risk, yes I believe you can.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by pensacoladiver »

Any mope can strap on a tank or two and dive air to 200 plus feet.

A good percentage of those mopes might just be able to get away with this their entire diving life.

Some of those mopes will run into a problem at depth and the narcosis will be their undoing. They will more than likely end up on the surface bent at best.

Since you are in the Marines, you certainly understand Operational Risk Management.

If you ORM deep diving on air (for recreation), it will be a no go every time if you are honest with yourself about the objectives..... The reward simply does not outweigh the risk.... If you are honest with yourself.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Greeves0844 »

Once again everyone is assuming I will be diving deep air, as I said previously, I have no intentions of ever diving deep air, but if another diver chooses that’s how he wants to dive and plans his dive as such, I have no reason to stop the individual, I would hope they are intelligent enough to actually know the risks of diving deep air. More often than not every keeps saying recreational diving, i do believe we are in the technical diving forum so recreational arguments don’t apply, the divers that would be making deep air dives should be technical divers and should know all of the risks they are about to assume. I do fully agree if I am going to be diving deep, I will get the proper training as a technical diver, which I would like to do as soon as I have the available time too.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by thefeve »

I don't think people are assuming wrong, but you're arguing back and forth - you're analogy above about using manual artillery states that many times you would, or prefer, to use that method. I think you comparing the two might be misleading to your own opinion on the topic. I have zero experience with artillery - but if you're trained in that skillset, and a manual method will get you the "hit" or get your shot on target - that's great. However - does it cause you to be impaired? Potentially to a point that you may kill yourself? Maybe you miss, cause civilian causalities, I really don't know - but comparing it to deep air isn't the same.

See Pensacola's argument - many will get away with it, but if you're really looking at it from teh risk management standpoint - it simply won't win.

So, while I'm not arguing that YOU would ever dive deep air, you're arguments seem to fully support anyone who thinks they should as you believe someone is capable of training to deal with narcosis. There's a reason people are joking about comparing it to drunk driving - just because someone can drive impaired clearly doesn't mean anyone ever SHOULD.

I think its also prudent to listen to those posting here - who have had the experiences that we, as non-tech dive don't have. Just based on the stories I've heard and the reasoning behind why they dive how to they do is enough for me to know there really isn't any reason for anyone to dive deep air. None of us really have the "right" to stop someone from doing so, but would I avoid diving with someone doing that? Certainly. If I was a dive op, I'd likely have the same sentiment.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Greeves0844 »

You are fully right, thats what i get for trying to argue when im still waking up in the morning lol. I have always tried to look to those that have been around longer and know way more then I, and the last few post I have been putting my foot in my mouth with my argument, and for that I do apologize.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by John Rawlings »

Unlike (I'm pretty sure) everyone participating in this discussion, I am old enough to remember when "Deep Air" was it. When I was younger Nitrox and Trimix were simply not available, and if they had even been thought up at all they were somewhere stored in the back of someone's mind. We had compressed air....period. You used it or you didn't dive, deep or shallow. Many of the major deep wrecks along both US coasts were first dived by divers on compressed air.

Did I do deep dives on air? Damn right I did. Was I impaired? Damn right I was. Was I aware of that impairment? In most cases, very much so, but it crept up on me. I recall one particular dive to 200 FSW in which I suddenly became aware that my vision resembled looking through a paper towel tube....I had no side vision left to speak of. It sucked, but if we wanted to do a deep dive it was what we had...nothing else.

Once Trimix became available, I switched to it as an obvious better alternative. It was clearly superior in every way that mattered. Why this is even being discussed, except as a history lesson, is beyond me. I could see the issue if we were in a part of the world where helium is simply not available, or even obscenely expensive....but we're not.

Diving deep air CAN indeed be done, but you need to ask yourself "why?" when something so very much better and far safer is available.

If you are going to dive deep air around here, or anywhere in the US for that matter, good luck finding someone as your dive buddy. You're going to be looking for someone to whom acute risk is part of the fun.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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John Rawlings wrote: If you are going to dive deep air around here, or anywhere in the US for that matter, good luck finding someone as your dive buddy. You're going to be looking for someone to whom acute risk is part of the fun.
Those people are out there, they just generally aren't so eloquent about their enjoyment of "living on the edge".

E.g. the guys in Tacoma doing bounce dives to 200ft on al80s of air as some sort of manhood test a few years ago come to mind. Until one of them didn't come back and even his body wasn't found for 2yrs.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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... and the guy who found him ... another deep air diver ... suffered a debilitating accident less than a year after that ...

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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by pensacoladiver »

Greeves0844 wrote:More often than not every keeps saying recreational diving, i do believe we are in the technical diving forum so recreational arguments don’t apply.
And there you are wrong. I routinely do dives to 300 plus feet, am fully trimix trained on both OC and CCR.... And I am a "recreational" diver. I do not get paid for what I do. I do it for recreation... No matter what the depth.

In a professional environment, such as military divers, there may come a time when the mission timing requirements cause the reward of diving deep air to outweigh the risks.... However, you will be hard pressed to find professional or military divers to discuss this on here.... A recreational scuba board... Regardless of depth.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by pensacoladiver »

CaptnJack wrote:
John Rawlings wrote: If you are going to dive deep air around here, or anywhere in the US for that matter, good luck finding someone as your dive buddy. You're going to be looking for someone to whom acute risk is part of the fun.
Those people are out there, they just generally aren't so eloquent about their enjoyment of "living on the edge".

E.g. the guys in Tacoma doing bounce dives to 200ft on al80s of air as some sort of manhood test a few years ago come to mind. Until one of them didn't come back and even his body wasn't found for 2yrs.
Good example of a mope that didn't make it. I wonder if he had a narcosis management class. :-)
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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No ... the dude who died was a friend of mine, and he was no mope. Rather, he was a modestly experienced diver who had an excess of enthusiasm for diving and an unwarranted sense of trust in a dive instructor with thousands more dives than he had who assured him what they were doing was "OK".

The magnitude of the risks they took were staggering, considering that this occurred during an AOW class that involved four other divers ... one of whom had only about 15 dives. The "plan" was to swim out over Lobster Shop Wall and do a bounce dive to 200+ feet ... at night. The total dive time was supposed to be about 10 minutes, and the "instructor" would then check off both the deep and night dives for the AOW students. Three teams, each team had one pony bottle to share. The divers were on single HP100's ... filled with air.

What could possibly go wrong?

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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by loanwolf »

Grateful Diver wrote:... and the guy who found him ... another deep air diver ... suffered a debilitating accident less than a year after that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob were he screwed up was he put on a additional 80cf deco bottle and forgot to add weight for it. So he was screwed before he even got into the water. Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by ljjames »

Sorry, I may have missed something in a followup incident report but if we are talking about Kirby, I came away with the impression (and supported by his post here on NWDC) that it happened because he was narc'd and lost track of time and gas at depth and 'woke up' low on back gas and needing to do urgent ascent, and was underweighted due to the near empty dubs even before deco came into play.
loanwolf wrote:
Bob were he screwed up was he put on a additional 80cf deco bottle and forgot to add weight for it. So he was screwed before he even got into the water. Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by loanwolf »

ljjames wrote:Sorry, I may have missed something in a followup incident report but if we are talking about Kirby, I came away with the impression (and supported by his post here on NWDC) that it happened because he was narc'd and lost track of time and gas at depth and 'woke up' low on back gas and needing to do urgent ascent, and was underweighted due to the near empty dubs even before deco came into play.
loanwolf wrote:
Bob were he screwed up was he put on a additional 80cf deco bottle and forgot to add weight for it. So he was screwed before he even got into the water. Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
Yes he did stay longer than planned but if he would have put the additional weight on for the extra deco bottle he would have been able to stay down for all his deco instead of yoyo'ing to exhaustion trying to stay down. until finally not being able too and popping to the surface. He had more than enough deco gas but it does you no good if you cannot stay down due to being under weight in the first place.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by pensacoladiver »

loanwolf wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:... and the guy who found him ... another deep air diver ... suffered a debilitating accident less than a year after that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob were he screwed up was he put on a additional 80cf deco bottle and forgot to add weight for it. So he was screwed before he even got into the water. Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but on a tech dive, there is no way in hell I'm cutting my weighting so razor thin that a single empty AL80 is going to cause me to surface if I don't want to

Especially in a place where I'm wearing a drysuit with ample buoyancy.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Tom Nic »

loanwolf wrote: Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
And the clock would still be ticking, and it would be a matter of time until the piper was paid. It was reckless, (in my opinion, of course - do I even need to say that?!) and the law of averages was WAY weighted toward a future accident for himself or one of the people he offered to take with him.

To imply that this was simply a weighting issue and that otherwise everything would be hunkydory ignores a pattern of diving that just about anyone who knew about was just waiting for the accident report. Sadly, they were right.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by loanwolf »

pensacoladiver wrote:
loanwolf wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:... and the guy who found him ... another deep air diver ... suffered a debilitating accident less than a year after that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob were he screwed up was he put on a additional 80cf deco bottle and forgot to add weight for it. So he was screwed before he even got into the water. Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but on a tech dive, there is no way in hell I'm cutting my weighting so razor thin that a single empty AL80 is going to cause me to surface if I don't want to

Especially in a place where I'm wearing a drysuit with ample buoyancy.
Yep basic fundamentals, never enter the water unless you have enough weight on to suck everything you have dry. Always plan for worst case scenario.

But when doing multiple dives with different profiles it can be overlooked easily.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by ljjames »

Kirby's own account doesn't mention having changed any tanks or forgotten weight. This was a straight up narcosis issue, not a matter of forgetting something. Indeed I always recommend people to weight themselves for 'worst case scenario AKA near empty tanks' but I don't think very many people had thought about that seriously until they read his story and started dissecting the incident.

My heart goes out to Kirby and his friends and loved ones for the life long issues he will now be dealing with.

The positive that I see is that we as a community were able to learn from the incident and for sure I saw a lot more people going out and doing real weight checks at Cove 2. Tanks can get empty in other ways, none of us are so good that we can avoid with 100% certainty a blown hose or a randomly free flowing reg.

The best thing I can say is if you are going to tempt fate and the narcosis/CO2 monster, stack the deck in your favor as much as humanly possible and hope Murphy takes the day off. The reminder that getting narc'd changes on a day to day basis and can hose even the most experience deep air diver is key here. To rewrite that bit of history and say it was just a tank change error would be unfortunate from an educational standpoint.

from http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php ... kirby#wrap
Kirby wrote:Well, where do I start. Thank you all for the prayers and thoughts for me and my family. To end all speculation, this is what really happened on that day. I failed to clearly set in my mind, a maximum depth for the dive. I was looking for the barge in front of Salty's and came under the effects of nitrogen narcosis and was swimming on "autopilot". I had no intention to go past 190 ft that day. When I swam back to 190ft and came back to my senses I realized to my great dismay, that I was breathing the last of the air from my dual 100's. I had 53% in 1 40cf and 100% in my other 40cf and knew that I couldnt breathe it at that depth, so I had to make a rapid ascent to 80 ft but, I did so in a controlled manner, did not suffer an expansion injury. I was able to make my switches and even made the switches on my computer but I had a hard time with bouyancy due to my empty tanks and air expansion in my suit and bc from the rapid ascent. I did not have enough weight to compensate for the empty tanks. I have never had an empty tank... always come up with at least 1000psi... when I was forced to the surface I knew that I only had minutes before DCS symptoms took over. By the grace of God the Water Taxi was there when I came up. I was able to flag them down and yell what was happening to me and swam to the back of the boat before I passed out. The next thing I remember was two weeks later and I was being wheeled out of the critical care unit headed to ICU. I am going to have a permanent vision disability due to hypoxia in the optic nerve. But otherwise I'm making a full physical recovery. Thanks again for all the prayers and support!
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by pensacoladiver »

loanwolf wrote:
pensacoladiver wrote:
loanwolf wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:... and the guy who found him ... another deep air diver ... suffered a debilitating accident less than a year after that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob were he screwed up was he put on a additional 80cf deco bottle and forgot to add weight for it. So he was screwed before he even got into the water. Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but on a tech dive, there is no way in hell I'm cutting my weighting so razor thin that a single empty AL80 is going to cause me to surface if I don't want to

Especially in a place where I'm wearing a drysuit with ample buoyancy.
Yep basic fundamentals, never enter the water unless you have enough weight on to suck everything you have dry. Always plan for worst case scenario.

But when doing multiple dives with different profiles it can be overlooked easily.
I'm still not following. A load out for a deco dive in the 200 foot range is a pretty standard thing. Once again, adding a single al80 to the plan should not make you so light that you can't control buoyancy... Even if you forget to add any weights.

IMO, it sounds like he was diving too close to the thin line in normal configuration, regarding weighting.

Sounds like others think he might have been a little too close to or over other lines as well.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by kdupreez »

loanwolf wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:... and the guy who found him ... another deep air diver ... suffered a debilitating accident less than a year after that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob were he screwed up was he put on a additional 80cf deco bottle and forgot to add weight for it. So he was screwed before he even got into the water. Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
And then he would never have "woken up" at shallower depths..would have been stuck at at the bottom.. running out of gas..

in my opinion, the error in judgement not to take enough weight is the only reason he is alive..
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by loanwolf »

kdupreez wrote:
loanwolf wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:... and the guy who found him ... another deep air diver ... suffered a debilitating accident less than a year after that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob were he screwed up was he put on a additional 80cf deco bottle and forgot to add weight for it. So he was screwed before he even got into the water. Otherwise he would be fine today and still doing the same dive profiles.

Something I have seen a lot of people do and have done myself as well.
And then he would never have "woken up" at shallower depths..would have been stuck at at the bottom.. running out of gas..

in my opinion, the error in judgement not to take enough weight is the only reason he is alive..
He swam back to 190 on the bottom came up to 80 did his transition even took the time to switch his computer. Problem was he did not have enough weight on him to stay down. He was on deco for some time and as he explained to me at one point he was head down swimming trying to stay down. And if you look at the profile on his computer he was yoyo'ing for quite some time before finally popping.

It comes down to if he had the weight on to stay down he would have been fine.
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