How common is deep air? NHZ

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Nwbrewer
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Nwbrewer »

I try to limit my dives to 110 in the sound and 100 in the lake without He. Post dive video review has shown that I'm not 100% at those depths without it.

FWIW you don't have to spend 2k+ to get He experience. UTD Rec3 can be done for less than 1K, even when you include the cost of an inflation system.

As for why Paulicarp should no longer do deep air, I present the following post dive comment - "I know I'm narc'd when I start thinking the Shrimp are staring at me. I know it's time to turn around when they start talking to me..."
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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"Nwbrewer"As for why Paulicarp should no longer do deep air, I present the following post dive comment - "I know I'm narc'd when I start thinking the Shrimp are staring at me. I know it's time to turn around when they start talking to me..."
The topic really wasn't meant to be a thread to "out" people like me who've made unpopular diving decisions. Almost everyone who has done any diving at or near the limits of traditional recreational diving has experienced some perceptible level of narcotic impairment, myself included. Until I set up my compressor and started mixing my own gas, I saw air as my only reasonable gas option, and the dives some of my buddies and I like to do are considered deep. Now that I have the option of using Helium, I find that I prefer to use it when the planned depth gets down to or below about 80 feet.

The original intent of my question was not about merits of helium or the risks of air or the likely flame war that can erupt between people of different convictions on the subject. My question about how common deep air is today came from this observation:

I have noticed a handful of folks who are all new to tech diving- but not all the same group and not just from the same instructor, and they all *almost* never use helium. Maybe it's just a choice that new tech divers are making more often than not, now that helium has increased so much in cost? Or maybe it has to do with the recent integration of tech classes into agencies that have traditionally been recreational only?

I asked the question because I was hoping to get some input from our favorite tech instructors as to what they see as the choices and preferences of new tech divers. Wondering if it's just my small world, or if there's a trend (for better or for worse) here...
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by CaptnJack »

Paulicarp wrote:
I have noticed a handful of folks who are all new to tech diving- but not all the same group and not just from the same instructor, and they all *almost* never use helium. Maybe it's just a choice that new tech divers are making more often than not, now that helium has increased so much in cost? Or maybe it has to do with the recent integration of tech classes into agencies that have traditionally been recreational only?
There are several agencies who still have deepish air classes like AN/DP without helium. While there are options to use helium in these classes now, some instructors might skip it. I can imagine people who did 150ft in class on air continuing to dive those depths after class on air. Especially given the costs of helium and that trimix might be an additional class in that curriculum. And we have also definitely had people in the past (regionally) who actually enjoyed narcosis. So combined, those two groups are not insignificant. They just might not post about it much.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by ljjames »

Some of it may have to do with the introduction of the concept of "tech" earlier. While true "deep air" is probably still a closet offshoot that as Richard mentions is probably not posted about much, helium is common knowledge (at least as an option) and with the inclusion of 'rec triox' 'heliair' 'rec 3' etc.. as middle ground classes somewhere between rec and tech (techreational?) is in a way becoming more accepted as a shallower diving mix to help deal with the narcosis exacerbated by dark water and extra work from pushing around all the cold water exposure gear (compared to a pair of swim trunks in 100' vis in the tropics).

I think (hope) divers are getting 'smarter' in some ways, and there are more choices out there, you don't have to choose to go all bad-ass tech to squirt a wee bit of helium in your mix if you know you are more susceptible to narcosis or have a dive coming up where you know you want all your wits about you, even if just in the 100-130 range.

Something that hasn't been really mentioned is that it seems like a lot are discussing the 100-150' range as 'deep air'. This in itself is a big shift from the past, where 'deep air' was probably more in the 170-180 and beyond range, the points where you start bumping up against recommended O2 limits etc.. So if there has been a change of note, its that 'deep air' is no longer the crazy ass 250+ idiocy that was practiced (even out here) back in the day, which is a change for the better I think. Back then 130-150ish was just that area between 'recreational limits' and 'deep shit', totally 'do-able' with proper gear, training, etc.. albeit narc'd. There was pushback on the depth limit for nothing other than the feeling that 130' was an arbitrary number placed upon divers as a 'rule' with no real basis in reality, and how as we well know, impairment from narcosis varies, both day to day, dive to dive, environmental conditions, workload, etc...

If they were going to set limits for 'recreational divers' why not set the limit at a 'safer' depth where a standard single al80 lasts a bit longer, say 100'? or 80? Some kids would still want their 'triple digit' hero dive - so if the 'limit' is 80, then would those wanting to be the badass go to 102' as their form of rebellion and rule breaking? In this thread, it seems folks mention the 140-150' range as their max depth... Why that number? Is 140-150 your breakin' the law dive depth? I'm not saying anything negative about that, just honestly curious :) I remember my first dives inching past the 130', and so much of what i felt was curiosity, internal conflict, etc... OMG! My depth gauge says 132'! I'm a revolutionary! Long live Che! <grin> followed by "My instructors gonna kill me if he finds out", etc..
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by H20doctor »

I would also say that the more consecutive dives you do, on a weekly basis past 100 feet, the more your body is going to get used to being at that depth, I've noticed when I do multiple Dives during the week, the less and less nark I feel... and I usually don't feel my nark till about 110 115, range
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by spatman »

Great post, Laura. My 140-150' range comes from my tolerance and acceptance of certain levels of narcosis. And even then, I won't do those depths on straight air, though I admit 25% o2 is pretty damn close. :)
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Jeremy »

I always thought "tolerance" to narcosis was a common myth.

"Contrary to popular belief, tolerance to nitrogen narcosis does not develop in sports divers. The suggestion is that narcosis is akin to alcohol intoxication – the more often you drink, the less drunk you become. However, this is because the more alcohol you drink, the harder your liver works to break down the alcohol by producing extra enzymes to do the job. Nitrogen is not broken down in the body, so there are no enzymes to destroy it and remove it from your bloodstream. There is no evidence to suggest that tolerance can occur in sports divers, but work done on saturation divers suggests the possibility of tolerance if their storage depth is about 40m. There is some question, however, as to whether this is accurate because researchers were potentially biased in favour of finding tolerance. So, if saturation divers don’t develop tolerance to narcosis, you as an occasional diver will certainly not develop it. However, a diver carrying out the same tasks regularly will find them easier, and this will lead them to think they have developed tolerance. The problem is that they are still narked."

http://www.divemagazine.co.uk/articles/ ... n-narcosis
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by spatman »

In this case I think it means "how well you handle your shit under the influence".
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Desert Diver »

There certainly were a bunch of deep air divers who would have disagreed. I've read that they worked down to the depths and seemed to think that when they didn't dive deep for awhile they needed to get accustomed to the depths again. Of course this is coming from me and I have limited personal experience.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by ljjames »

We worked down to the depths as well. It wasn't so much about 'acclimatization' in the sense that we were any less narc'd, it was that we knew what to expect and in theory how to compensate (compensate said with sarcasm)

I am quite sure, for me at least, that there is no real building up a tolerance because after diving the Al several times on air, every time I approached 170 (diving the wreck or diving at mukilteo or dropping off a wall) I could tell, often to the exact foot, without looking at my depth gauge, independent of visibility or ambient light that "the side of the wreck would be coming into view any second", because it felt - and for me tasted, i taste narcosis - exactly the same every single time from a narc'd standpoint. If building up tolerance were real, I shouldn't have been able to do that.

I can tell when i hit 70' as well... my gear feels more comfortable and I'm a bit warmer... gentle fuzzy rose colored glasses with only a touch of 'i just looked at my pressure gauge and forget what I read so should look again'.

at 80-90 I start to worry about my dive buddy, and start to compensate a bit with heightened watchfulness... i'm aware that i'm impaired.

At 110, i've been known to plug my two light heads in together and wonder why the switch doesn't work. but only for like 2 flips of the switch before figuring it out.

this list goes on... there is a point where it has comfortably warm, numb lips, nearly immobile fingers, comfortably numb whole body, twitching cheek, auditory (bubbles sounded REALLY LOUD) and finally tunnel vision with blue spots (like when you press on your eyeballs too long). Thats when I said "uncle" and got helium certified and haven't gone there since (April 29, 1993)

Maybe i'm weird and really hyper tuned in to what i'm 'feeling' underwater. Have done similar list for helium, which mostly consists of "feel really alert" "240 feels like 60" "feel a bit hyper sensitized, brain working faster than i'm used to at this depth, or the best is how much more I remember and how much brighter the EXACT Same dive feels on a nice helium mix.. "oh look, pilings, oh look, a boat.. oh look at all those black rock fish, i never noticed them before...." (said on a 130' dive)

It is possible to feel this stuff if you pay attention to the subtleties. this is what we did in our 'acclimation' dives. We tried to tune in and then we'd discuss each dive, and what 10' deeper felt like to the team members to try to get a good understanding of how they were impaired beyond what we could actually 'see' but how their brains were working. This watchfulness and also open discussion is part of what trained me to noticed 'differences' in my buddy's actions. Generally speaking I can tell by how they are using their light underwater and body language what stage comfort level they are experiencing (and narcosis if they happen to be on air/nitrox)

and no.. i guess diving has never been just about diving for me...

<disclaimer> this is all out the window with a rebereather... a best mix gas mixing machine on your back really confuses the taste buds ;)
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by It's DUE! »

Billy Snook of Seven Seas Scuba in Vancouver Washington teaches deep air and dives deep air.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by AdrianSmith »

It's DUE! wrote:Billy Snook of Seven Seas Scuba in Vancouver Washington teaches deep air and dives deep air.
Billy just finished his normoxic trimix class on his Hollis Prism2 rebreather with Tom Mount of IANTD. He's not really doing deep air any more.

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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Greeves0844 »

I have never dove deep air, I am currently working on my instructor before i move over to tec. I do have an instructor though that teaches Narcosis Managment, and he also dive deep air often to the depths of 214" and hasnt run into any issues. Part of his Narcosis Managment course is going down to depth were you start feeling narc'd and learn to deal with it
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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Greeves0844 wrote:I have never dove deep air, I am currently working on my instructor before i move over to tec. I do have an instructor though that teaches Narcosis Managment, and he also dive deep air often to the depths of 214" and hasnt run into any issues. Part of his Narcosis Managment course is going down to depth were you start feeling narc'd and learn to deal with it
Let us know how that works out for you.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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Greeves0844 wrote:I have never dove deep air, I am currently working on my instructor before i move over to tec. I do have an instructor though that teaches Narcosis Managment, and he also dive deep air often to the depths of 214" and hasnt run into any issues. Part of his Narcosis Managment course is going down to depth were you start feeling narc'd and learn to deal with it
Thats what we used to do "back in the day" and there was no trimix. Only problem was, even after significant conditioning yourself to it, every once and awhile rather than get narc'd, you'd just plain pass out. No one ever seemed to be able to explain what caused it, we just knew to expect it. I think thats what happened to Kirby as well, even with all his deep air dives. Possibly even a couple of recent deep air dive facilities on Snake Island Wall.

If you are diving deep air to save money, you might reconsider where your money is being spent as well as the risk/reward.

If you are diving deep air to be manly, well.. thats your choice too, but perhaps a less respected one.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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Greeves0844 wrote:I have never dove deep air, I am currently working on my instructor before i move over to tec. I do have an instructor though that teaches Narcosis Managment, and he also dive deep air often to the depths of 214" and hasnt run into any issues. Part of his Narcosis Managment course is going down to depth were you start feeling narc'd and learn to deal with it

This is like saying you can do "Alcohol Management" by drinking until you start to feel drunk and then going driving on the freeway.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Dashrynn »

Nwbrewer wrote:
Greeves0844 wrote:I have never dove deep air, I am currently working on my instructor before i move over to tec. I do have an instructor though that teaches Narcosis Managment, and he also dive deep air often to the depths of 214" and hasnt run into any issues. Part of his Narcosis Managment course is going down to depth were you start feeling narc'd and learn to deal with it

This is like saying you can do "Alcohol Management" by drinking until you start to feel drunk and then going driving on the freeway.
In his defense, I have increased my ability to react effectively while under the effects of nitrogen narcosis by drinking copious amounts of alcohol. It's like running on a treadmill, so when I need to run from a bear, I can do so faster than my friends.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Paulicarp »

Nwbrewer wrote: This is like saying you can do "Alcohol Management" by drinking until you start to feel drunk and then going driving on the freeway.

Uh...duh. How the hell else would you learn to drink and drive? :stir:
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by spatman »

I want a Narcosis Management c-card.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Nwbrewer »

spatman wrote:I want a Narcosis Management c-card.
Do you need to already have your super lemon wedge trimix instructor card to teach that class?
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Greeves0844 »

This is like saying you can do "Alcohol Management" by drinking until you start to feel drunk and then going driving on the freeway.
You have obviously never done a safety stand down with the military, they have the drunken goggles and let you drive the golf cart to show you what it’s like to drive drunk
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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Greeves0844 wrote:
This is like saying you can do "Alcohol Management" by drinking until you start to feel drunk and then going driving on the freeway.
You have obviously never done a safety stand down with the military, they have the drunken goggles and let you drive the golf cart to show you what it’s like to drive drunk
Once you are done practicing with the golf cart, does that certify you as a licensed drunk? :luv:
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

Post by Greeves0844 »

CaptnJack wrote:
Greeves0844 wrote:
This is like saying you can do "Alcohol Management" by drinking until you start to feel drunk and then going driving on the freeway.
You have obviously never done a safety stand down with the military, they have the drunken goggles and let you drive the golf cart to show you what it’s like to drive drunk
Once you are done practicing with the golf cart, does that certify you as a licensed drunk? :luv:

Lol some would agree it is the proper training to drive drunk, but most of them are also the ones who will do it anyways. It should be a wakeup call for individuals to realize how impaired they are while drunk.

Though i see where this response will lead, I stand by the original comment of taking the course to see how to handle being narced in a relatively "safe" environment. I'm sure you fine gentlemen know way more about deep diving on air then I, but I also think of the part in the book Shadow Divers were they are talking about the effects of deep air, they acknowledge they were slightly impaired and still continued their dives knowing they were not 100% in control of their facilities
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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Greeves0844 wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:
Greeves0844 wrote:
This is like saying you can do "Alcohol Management" by drinking until you start to feel drunk and then going driving on the freeway.
You have obviously never done a safety stand down with the military, they have the drunken goggles and let you drive the golf cart to show you what it’s like to drive drunk
Once you are done practicing with the golf cart, does that certify you as a licensed drunk? :luv:

Lol some would agree it is the proper training to drive drunk, but most of them are also the ones who will do it anyways. It should be a wakeup call for individuals to realize how impaired they are while drunk.

Though i see where this response will lead, I stand by the original comment of taking the course to see how to handle being narced in a relatively "safe" environment. I'm sure you fine gentlemen know way more about deep diving on air then I, but I also think of the part in the book Shadow Divers were they are talking about the effects of deep air, they acknowledge they were slightly impaired and still continued their dives knowing they were not 100% in control of their facilities
Check out Caverns Measureless to Man, Sheck's descriptions are quite eloquent.


PSIA is really the only program doing pretty big deep air anymore. They are even beyond the industry standard ppO2 limit of 1.6 at 240ft on air (ppO2 = 1.73)
http://www.psai.com/courses/technical-e ... management

At least one scubaboard member did this program somewhere in SE asia a few years ago (tortuga68 I think was his name). Honestly from his course writeup it didn't look like he learned much and a 5 min bounce to 240ft while checking his gauges and trying to remember his consumption afterwards was barely a dive to me.

We have at least one member here who enjoyed deep air for many years. He had a really bad day about 2 or 3 years ago and passed out at depth while solo. He came to on ascent once his tanks got light. He survived, but can't dive anymore and has permanent vision damage as well as other residual medical issues. Given his extensive use (hundreds of deep air dives in Puget Sound) of air down to at least 200ft he was undoubtedly more qualified than anyone else here to "handle" narcosis at the time of his accident.
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Re: How common is deep air? NHZ

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Greeves0844 wrote:I'm sure you fine gentlemen know way more about deep diving on air then I, but I also think of the part in the book Shadow Divers were they are talking about the effects of deep air, they acknowledge they were slightly impaired and still continued their dives knowing they were not 100% in control of their facilities
...and there's a high body count %age of divers in that book, so maybe not the best material to support deep air.
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