Deco Reg Maintanence

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Jeff Pack
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Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by Jeff Pack »

I was having a talk with Josh@tacoma scuba yesterday about deco regs, and I mentioned that one could probably go several years on a rebuild, since they are barely used (especially on a rebreather, like never used other than a wet breath test).

His response was interesting, ie a deco reg might need better maintenance, as they are barely used, thus more prone to failure from non use.

Interesting point I hadn't considered.

So I'm looking for some experienced folks real world experience one way or the other.

thx.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

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kdupreez
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by kdupreez »

Thats a fair point. depending on how well you rinse them and if they are sealed or not.

I rinse my regs well after use and service my primary back gas on my doubles setup each each year, then swap out the backup as the primary and thus the most recently serviced reg is on the backup and basically I service regs every 2 years.

if you maintain your "almost never used" deco regs or bailout regs well post dive and not use them a lot, they will last a very very long time. But you should at least to a bench test on them annually to check WOB / cracking effort on 2nds and IP and check for an creep on 1st stages..

I have some stage regs that have not been serviced for 3+ years and have seen very little use and still look brand new inside and are still well lubed and o-rings look new when I check them, mostly because of proper post dive maintenance.
Last edited by kdupreez on Wed May 07, 2014 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jeff Pack
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by Jeff Pack »

thx, thats what I had thought as well, but Josh makes an interesting point though.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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kdupreez
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by kdupreez »

he does - usually "vacation divers" who's regs just sit on a dry shelf and never see the water, they get crusty and dont work well after a while and can do with a service..

depending on what O2 lube they use, that stuff has some shelf life too before it starts getting crusty.. I've found that Krytox is better than Christo-lube for that reason.
"I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party" - Ron White
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ljjames
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by ljjames »

A long time ago I did all the regulator repair for my shop. I noticed the same thing as Josh.

Of course if you dive the lake a lot, all those regs will look pretty damn good...

I consider bailout regs and deco regs like life support equipment on steroids. Those are the regs I don't want to 'wonder' about, and 'when you need them, you really need them'.

The ones that are used regularly, well, I know how they are working. How many folks (out of class) actually do a test at 20' of their bailout reg or deco bottles on every dive, or at very least periodically test them by doing a full deploy and breathing on them underwater? (folks with BOV's, you have no excuse <grin>)
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Jeff Pack
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by Jeff Pack »

I just wet breath mine at the surface
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by CaptnJack »

I'd say failure from non-use sitting on a shelf is pretty remote (takes many years)

Failure from being brought underwater time and again, pressurized but possibly burping getting small water incursions etc. That's potentially much higher.

Also depends on the reg. My semi-educated experience has been that diaphragm regs are far more likely to fail catastrophically compared to piston regs which lend to just leak. The turret Oring is one of the common leaky spots. Its one reason why I prefer pistons despite being unsealed units vs 'sealed' diaphrams. I would not use a 3yo unserviced diaphragm reg for deco. I have used and will continue to use some of my "workhorses" without being paranoid about their service history. E.g. a SP Mk2 with an unbalanced 2nd is about as failproof as you can get no matter how infrequently its serviced. That's why I use one on my O2 bottle.
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Jeff Pack
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by Jeff Pack »

I use a Mk2/R190 for deeper mix always on BO for your exact reasons, they are about as close to bombproof as they come.

My rich BO I'm less picky about, but may likely switch that too, as I found out these SEAC regs I got were not for US import,and no one seems to know exactly yet if they are even serviceable.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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ljjames
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by ljjames »

Something else that Josh probably already mentioned is that annual service is when the mfg's have opportunity to 'replace' say a seat or o-ring or c-clip or whatnot. I realize that o-ring tech doesn't change much but at least way back when, scuba pro was always using the annual service to upgrade internal bits... (Most often was seat composition or to a slightly more durable weight o-ring or whatnot). Of course things may have changed, it's been ages.
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kdupreez
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by kdupreez »

Laura is right. If you are not a service tec, its a good idea to take your regs into the shop once a year for a bench test at least.. that way they can check the latest service bulletins to see if any parts were "upgraded" or updated. Those are usually swapped at no charge at regular service intervals based on information from latest service bulletins.

First stages not so much degradation when sitting if its well maintained post dive, but the second stages are more of an issue because of the soft rubber seats and the main spring forcing the poppet into the seat when there is no intermediate pressure from first stage to counteract with.. i.e. eating into the seat over prolonged periods and then they tend to no seal well when used and leak or more prone to freeflow.

Some regs are actually built so you can relieve that spring tension when stored.. i.e. the G250V's you can push the purge button and twist it to lock the poppet away from the seat.

my stage / deco regs that are not used often are all Halcyon versions of the G250V and I store them with that purge button stick-on doohickey.

If yours doesnt have it, I'd recommend at least tuning the reg to the least most cracking effort setting when stored so there is less spring tension. if you are to store it for a year or more, you can remove the cover and diaphragm and tape the diaphragm lever slightly down to relieve the spring tension off the seat.. then there is zero wear on the seat.
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Waynne Fowler
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by Waynne Fowler »

you can create a purge depressor with a plastic bottle cap (I know it's not eco friendly... you can use a piece of wood or virtually anything that fits the button size) and a rubber band. Before I got active I had one on all the 2nd stages that I stored. IMHO they worked awesome as when I went back to them many years later the seats were still useable... albeit not for very long but they worked long enough for me to fall in love again and feel it was worth the money to service the regs.

in the end though. I've come to believe that it is in my best interest to eliminate as many potential avenues for problems underwater as possible. ESPECIALLY when I am committing myself to taking care of any problem I may encounter while remaining in the water. And while I will only dive in a team, I do my best to be self sufficient.

A deco reg should cost less than a hundred bucks to service, for me that's some inexpensive peace of mind.

BTW: IMHO a newly serviced reg should be taken out on a No deco dive and givin a shakedown. It is not uncommon for a newly serviced reg to need a bit of tuning. Especially if your tech isn't completely familiar with you and your diving style.

JM2C and worth probably half that.
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Desert Diver
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by Desert Diver »

I'm certainly not a regulator repairman though I do disassemble ours when they start to leak. It is almost always sand in the secondary seat. That said I do make my living repairing things and have for 40 years or so. My problem with yearly service is that anything we have ever been around was most likely to fail right after it was worked on. People make mistakes. If you don't make mistakes you are not doing anything. The mistake could be something assembled wrong. Could be a wrong part. Could be debris left inside while working on the mechanism. Could be a new defective part. We always trust parts more after they have been tested a bit. Could be a specification change on the part that has unforeseen consequences. In vehicles and machinery oil changes are necessary but the most likely time for a filter gasket to leak or an oil plug to fall out is a few miles after the change. Not to mention the 2 times I have heard about people changing their oil and having the manual transmission empty and the engine overfull. All this makes me really uneasy about messing with something that is working fine unless I know that the soft parts are really old or really have a lot of cycles on them. So if I was diving 200+ dives a year I would probably look inside my regs and see what was showing wear and develop a schedule for rebuilding. I'm not diving that much so I very carefully check operation as we pack for a dive trip. So far since 1985 I have seen one metal seat corrode on an old Dacor so I threw it away. Lots of sand incidents as I said. And one free flow at 70 feet the first dive after the only time I took our regs in to be serviced. I don't believe I have ever bought a new first stage and the only new second stages I ever bought still work fine 20 years later but I've replaced them with "new" used ones. Preventative maintainance? I never go diving without a complete working regulator setup including the console with a computer in our spares bag.
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Waynne Fowler
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Re: Deco Reg Maintanence

Post by Waynne Fowler »

typically speaking a bad part won't make it through a thorough post rebuild performance check. Very much the same as if a part is installed wrong, it won't test out properly. Especially if one has the proper testing equipment, though you don't really need to have a flow bench and all the super duper high end gadgets to do a good rebuild. They will however assist one in doing a much finer job in the tuning phase.
It is not uncommon for a reg to have tuning issues after service, usually the problem is noticed as a free flowing regulator. if theres a complete and catastrophic failure of the reg after a rebuild... well.... nuff said.

recently i received a reg back that was trickling a bit all the time. Everything checked perfect at the time of delivery and this developed on the 3rd dive. The first stage checked out fine and upon inspecting the second stage crown after removing it I found a small thread... red... from the sweater i was wearing the day I did the service. :BDub: It must have laid outside the crown/seat interface during testing (and I do have all the hi zoot coolio test equipment) and on that 3rd dive the thread got sucked into the crown/seat orifice creating a leak.

We do always trust parts more after they've been tested a bit. That is why most tech's worth their salt recommend always taking a newly serviced reg on a light duty dive as it's maiden voyage after service. ( I may begin to suggest multiple dives now!? ) We may not know how you dive, do you sit on the surface with your reg's bouncing in and out of the water mouthpiece up and wonder why they free flow, do you run a scooter and like to head into the current with your 2nd stage dialed as loose as she can get... all these things make a difference on how to tune a regulator to each individual.

I trust that the one incident you had with a free flowing reg at 70' turned out well and that a simple retuning was all that was needed?

With all that said Desert Diver. All of us here play an adult game. We look at all the details, inquire a bit, and make a decision as to what makes us feel comfortable and confident underwater, *then we trust we are not mistaken* :)

Sounds like your pretty smart folk, and you've found a way to take care of your equipment that you are comfortable with. We all have our way. It has apparently served you well for some time.

In the recreational realm if we are properly trained,skilled, PRACTICED AND we keep our heads about us, during even a total failure of everything, it should not lead to death. earth shaking and freakin scurry yeah.. deadly... IMHO no. Couple that with a proper team and you have a wonderful recipe for survival. :norris:

Some Issues... like this one.... flip a coin... whatever side it lands on... theres another side to it and it becomes very difficult to tell if someone is right or wrong.

as a side thought... I wonder if anyone has done a study... if anyone knows of one I'd dig seeing it...
but i wonder... how many reg's people have died on (excuse my morbidness) that were newly serviced reg's due to failure (of any kind... i.e. ill tuning, faulty part/installation) as opposed to folks that have died on reg's that had not been serviced...

the possibility of a FF'ing reg is an excellent reason to learn valve drills... even/especially for a single tank diver.

Holy cow i can't believe i typed all that!.
Ripper of drysuits, mocker of divers...there are no atheist divers in a mistimed Deception Pass dive. Jeremy
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