Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

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60south
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Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by 60south »

Hey Techie divers...

Today at Lake Crescent we found what appeared to be some nylon lines, with direction markers, perhaps for tech training. This was at East Beach, to the south of the entry area, at 40' and 60'. They were covered in silt and algae, obviously unused for a long time.

If this was the first time I wouldn't have thought much about it, however the last time I dove Lake Crescent (on an unmarked turnout on Hwy 101, steep wall dive) we also found lines laid out all over the place.

Now I'm not necessarily complainin', just wonderin'... Is it the usual procedure to leave lines in place long after the diving is finished? Seems tacky. :smt064

I was tempted to collect the trash, er, guide lines, but decided to ask first.

On the positive side, there were also some nice little underwater rock sculptures in the same area.
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Jeff Pack
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Jeff Pack »

Are you talking about the lines at Rock Garden?
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60south
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by 60south »

Ah, yeah. That would be what I found today.

The lines I found before must be at the site "Sledgehammer".
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Joshua Smith »

It's one of my pet peeves. I hate it when line is left all over for no good reason. For some reason, this topic is controversial, but I have trouble understanding why. We find line all over wrecks like the AJ Fuller on a regular basis. I don't get it. The only time I don't mind it is when someone runs line to a target wreck to aid navigation- otherwise, reel it up and take it home.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by CaptnJack »

I tried to organize a cleanup to get those out of there maybe 2 years ago. For various reasons it didn't happen. Sad that the trash is still there, they have been there about 6 or 7 years now.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Jeff Pack »

I thought the lines at Rock Garden were part of the run between there are Sledgehammer.

I did note my last dive at Sledgehammer, there were some new lines left there that seemed to provide no purpose, and weren't there the last time we dove it.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Mortuus »

To my knowledge, they are not unused. It is a line that runs from East Beach to Sledgehammer, and I know many people who have run it. I also plan on running it (not all the way) this summer with a buddy of mine. So I know at least two people who would definitely appreciate it if it were left in
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by CaptnJack »

Mortuus wrote:To my knowledge, they are not unused. It is a line that runs from East Beach to Sledgehammer, and I know many people who have run it. I also plan on running it (not all the way) this summer with a buddy of mine. So I know at least two people who would definitely appreciate it if it were left in
You need a line to scooter along the shoreline at 70ft depth in 100ft vis? If you keep the slope on one (right or left) side on the way out it'll be on the other side on the way back...

To many actual cave divers the need for this navigational aid in Lake Crescent is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention its basically trash in a national park, and that divers are already only so-so welcomed in the park. And that East Beach is closed to divers in the summer. Altogether its retarded. (no offense to those which actual mental handicaps)
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Mortuus »

CaptnJack wrote:
Mortuus wrote:To my knowledge, they are not unused. It is a line that runs from East Beach to Sledgehammer, and I know many people who have run it. I also plan on running it (not all the way) this summer with a buddy of mine. So I know at least two people who would definitely appreciate it if it were left in
You need a line to scooter along the shoreline at 70ft depth in 100ft vis? If you keep the slope on one (right or left) side on the way out it'll be on the other side on the way back...

To many actual cave divers the need for this navigational aid in Lake Crescent is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention its basically trash in a national park, and that divers are already only so-so welcomed in the park. And that East Beach is closed to divers in the summer. Altogether its retarded. (no offense to those which actual mental handicaps)
Fair point. No, I suppose you wouldn't need a line.

EDIT: And for what it's worth, I never even considered it to be a "navigational aid." I always just thought it was there because line runs are fun...not because people who can't nav "needed" it.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Grateful Diver »

I think it's poor form to leave these lines in Lake Crescent ... it being a National Park and all. I think it better if people pick up their line after their dive, and leave the park in as natural a state as possible once you're done playing.

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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Joshua Smith »

Grateful Diver wrote:I think it's poor form to leave these lines in Lake Crescent ... it being a National Park and all. I think it better if people pick up their line after their dive, and leave the park in as natural a state as possible once you're done playing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
This.
And the line on wrecks thing really bugs me too. We use reels and line on wrecks, and when we turn around, we reel it back up.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Jeff Pack »

Mortuus wrote:To my knowledge, they are not unused. It is a line that runs from East Beach to Sledgehammer, and I know many people who have run it. I also plan on running it (not all the way) this summer with a buddy of mine. So I know at least two people who would definitely appreciate it if it were left in
Make that 4, we plan on doing the big line run as well.(Actually a rather large group was toying with the idea)

Yes, line isnt "necessary", but getting out of Rock Garden with its wild topology is certainly aided by line instead.

The people who made that big line run certainly put alot of effort into it.

As for East Beach, the only reason its closed to divers is because the head ranger chooses to bias its use to beach goers only parking and not allow others parking access (even when its empty), which as a potential user and tax payer I find quite prejudicial.
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by CaptnJack »

Jeff Pack wrote:The people who made that big line run certainly put alot of effort into it.
Yeah and it'll be 10x as much effort to remove it. A monkey can hit the trigger on a scooter and lay out line at 100+ ft/min in open water. Its completely ridiculous that this is considered an accomplishment.

BTW its a royal pita to clean up when you are done since you can't pick up line on the trigger. Cleaning it up would get far more respect from me than laying it.
Jeff Pack wrote: As for East Beach, the only reason its closed to divers is because the head ranger chooses to bias its use to beach goers only parking and not allow others parking access (even when its empty), which as a potential user and tax payer I find quite prejudicial.
Yeah and that's just a hint at the institutional bias divers face in Lake Crescent. A bias which has been validated by prior diver desecration of the Warren Car grave site. Imagine how the head ranger would feel about access if he realized divers were leaving nylon trash in the lake?

Besides, life's not fair, get over it.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by 60south »

Jeff Pack wrote:Make that 4, we plan on doing the big line run as well.(Actually a rather large group was toying with the idea)
Perhaps this would be an good opportunity to clean up the lake. :supz:
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Jeff Pack »

CaptnJack wrote:
Jeff Pack wrote: As for East Beach, the only reason its closed to divers is because the head ranger chooses to bias its use to beach goers only parking and not allow others parking access (even when its empty), which as a potential user and tax payer I find quite prejudicial.
Yeah and that's just a hint at the institutional bias divers face in Lake Crescent.
Besides, life's not fair, get over it.
True, but the Head Ranger has a boss he reports to as well. Just accepting a crappy attitude towards divers as its just the way it is, doesn't change anything either. Rock Garden is a great place for recreational diving, that's closed to divers, which would mean less folks supporting the local businesses as well during peak season.

Anyways, off the soapbox....
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by cofford »

CaptnJack wrote: Imagine how the head ranger would feel about access if he realized divers were leaving nylon trash in the lake?
I don't see any "nylon trash" in that area. I see a single piece of string, well maintained, on the bottom of the lake, in an area where few if any will ever come across it. The line has been there for the better part of a decade, and is used regularly by various groups doing big dives (multiple stages, multiple scooters). Several of those groups have pulled out all the old and broken lines over the years and left a single guideline in place. It's not the Black Dragon or AJ Fuller full of a spider web of lines down there. The line also has distances marked every 200' so it's very useful for surveying, finding new features, walls, and the like.

It sounds like some new lines may have been run in the Sledgehammer Wall area that need some cleanup.

Disclaimer: I didn't put the line in. I don't know who did. I just enjoy diving it several times a year, as a second looooong dive after legally diving the cars.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by lamont »

I think the first 3000' or so off the East Beach was put in by Dathan sometime before 2007 (some bit rot may have occurred in my memory in the past 7 years so I might be incorrect). I don't know if its been maintained since then but it used to zigzag from 70' to 30' like crazy. I think there was also a deeper 100' line out there.

I think I'm going to have to agree with rjack that it now seems fairly pointless to me. YMMV.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by Grateful Diver »

Jeff Pack wrote:
Mortuus wrote:To my knowledge, they are not unused. It is a line that runs from East Beach to Sledgehammer, and I know many people who have run it. I also plan on running it (not all the way) this summer with a buddy of mine. So I know at least two people who would definitely appreciate it if it were left in
Make that 4, we plan on doing the big line run as well.(Actually a rather large group was toying with the idea)

Yes, line isnt "necessary", but getting out of Rock Garden with its wild topology is certainly aided by line instead.

The people who made that big line run certainly put alot of effort into it.

As for East Beach, the only reason its closed to divers is because the head ranger chooses to bias its use to beach goers only parking and not allow others parking access (even when its empty), which as a potential user and tax payer I find quite prejudicial.
Jeff, I kinda know where you're coming from but I want to share some thoughts on what you said.

First off, you don't do big dives by scootering down a line in open water. You might do long dives or deep dives that way, but in the end all you're doing is following a line.

Now, I'm not against laying line ... or under the right circumstances leaving it in place. The line to the MT6 and the bomber are useful, not as avenues to big dives, but just because the chronically poor vis in the areas where they lay make following a line a reasonable way to find the target. That reason doesn't exist in Lake Crescent. Also, those targets don't exist inside a national park.

Leaving a line in Lake Crescent may seem a reasonable thing for people who dive there occasionally, but again it's inside a national park ... and the whole point of a national park is to leave things in their natural state. It's easy to say that a little line in the lake isn't hurting anything ... but where does one "draw the line" about appropriateness? A little line sets a precedent ... to more lines, to the diver who decides that the lake's too boring and needs a scuttled boat or car to go look at ... and where does it end? Once that precedent gets established, there's always a natural tendency to take it to the next level. Go do some reading on the Broken Window Theory ... not so much from the criminology aspect but in terms of how it affects social norms. Once it becomes "OK" for divers to start putting stuff into the lake it loses its pristine nature and starts taking on the aspect of "improvements" ... as defined by anybody who cares to start putting stuff in the lake.

And that leads to the access issue you mentioned. Are you sure you're just dealing with a ranger who's got a bias toward beach goers? Or has this ranger possibly had bad experiences with divers before and decided they're not worth the effort? The "it's my tax dollars" argument doesn't really fly ... you aren't being denied access to the park, but it's not your place to determine what's appropriate use of the resource ... that's their job. You can affect that decision by being respectful not only of their job, but of other users. One of the major roles of the rangers in this respect is the preservation of the park resources ... and many of those guys are divers too. If you do something that they find objectionable you not only risk your access rights as a diver ... you risk those of everyone else who might want to dive there.That's exactly what happened when a few divers decided that they were entitled to remove pieces of the Warren car ... which for a time closed access to that site to everybody. Those few divers got their souvenirs ... and screwed every other diver in the process. They also left an indelible impression with the park staff which is, I don't doubt, having some impact on decisions that are affecting your access even today. I don't blame the rangers or their "bias" for that ... I blame the divers who decided it was cool to rob a grave site inside the park.

That line might seem a little thing to you ... a convenience. And under different circumstances I'd be inclined to agree with you. But I think it's inappropriate in that location ... inside the park it's an intrusion on the purpose of the park, which is to allow people to experience a pristine area without the usual litter that comes from living in a populated area.

And I think the people who put it there, who left it there, and who support leaving it there are failing to consider those aspects of how it affects not just their use of the park, but everyone elses ... who also, by the way, pay taxes that make the park available to all of us.

Take only pictures ... leave only memories ... and if you can't get there and back without following a guideline, it isn't really a "big" dive ... it's just another tourist destination ...

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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by dewmercer »

The line from the rock garden to sledgehammer is about 10000' long and runs at an average depth of 70' dropping down to 100 in places. It is periodically cleaned and repaired by various groups who use it for tec training and fun. Running the line from end to end is, imo, a dive of medium proportion as you typically need an extra scooter, maybe a bottom stage and, if you are fast, you'll need to spend about 10min on O2 when you're done. Its not a run for novices.

I agree that if its only purpose was as a navigational aid it could certainly be pulled and the scoot run could still be done. However, the training that takes place on it is tec line laying, line maintenance and training teams in running long lines on scoots with multiple cylinders, extra scoots, etc. Doing that type of training in clear water is easier and safer than doing it in the crap viz of Lake W or at C2 where viz is very hit and miss.

If the line was unused trash I'd say yank it but it is a frequently used underwater roadway. There was a big sign on it last year that was put in as a joke. It serves no purpose and should be pulled. If the line was a tangled mess or hazard I'd say repair it or yank it. It was not in that state last year and we'll be making any repairs needed this summer.

The argument that national parks should be left as they are is reasonable to a point but that would also mean that we should not build roads, trails, camp sites or anything else in them. We do these things to allow people to experience the park and have fun. The line is the same thing regardless of its being officially sanctioned. It helps divers who are interested in lines and line running have fun and train. It actually gives me a reason to visit the park as I generally find Lake C to be somewhat sterile and boring.

The line was laid in a long time ago (10+ years) and has become a fixture for many of us. I know the guys who put it in, the history that surrounds it (quite interesting if you're into that sort of thing) and the people who maintain it. Sure its not a natural artifact but if you are going to pull it up then I'd say get rid of the barge, the hidden village, the warren and steel cars also. Hell, Seacrest is a city park. Pull everything out of C2. Get rid of the fishing reef at salt water. Its the same argument and its not a good one.

Saying that the line sets a precedent is fair and I'd say that if lines were proliferating then it would be a dangerous and abused precedent. As far as I know, lines are not proliferating at Crescent so the precedent is not being abused. If it starts being abused the fix THAT problem.

The line is in no way offensive to the 99.999% of park visitors who will never even know it is there. I'd be surprised if most divers who use the park will ever see it and of those, very few will be offended. Just because you don't understand the why its there, why its useful and you just don't get what could ever be fun about lines in no way implies that it has no purpose and is not enjoyed by some.

I wish the dive community had some kind of organized voice in deciding how the park is used. We don't.

Please just leave the line alone. Its not hurting anybody or damaging the environment in any way. Its not a hazard. Its not detracting from anybodies experience of the natural beauty of the lake (at least as far as I know). Unilaterally deciding to pull it based on your assumptions and bias which may not be broadly shared is just as questionable as the original decision to put it in but there is nothing that can be done to change history.

Besides, if you tear it up (no small accomplishment and one which is somewhat risky) it will just get put back in and endless juvenile squabbling will ensue. The rangers will probably catch wind of it and they will then have an excuse to close the lake to divers as we are nothing but a bunch of litter bugs.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by defied »

Well, well, well.... Here we are again...

Dave... I actually agree with you. *shudder 0]

No line that Dathan laid exists in there any more. All of the line that had become a ball of fuck over time was replaced, and there is only one clean line going from point A to point B.

Whether or not it's a "legit" lay, it's there.

Do what you want, it will just be large training exercises.

"Here's how you pull and clean line."
"Here's how you install line."

The weirdest thing. Recreational divers are ALWAYS looking for something to do.
Commercial divers... not so much...

There are at least two large groups of people I know of who like to make these runs, and they tend to be very critical of the other party's work, and vice verce, so this competition actually keeps the line clean. Wait for summer, it'll look like some asshole went down there with a tooth whitener on that line.

D

Disclaimer: I didn't put the line in either. I don't know who did. I just enjoy diving it several times a year, as a second looooong dive after legally diving the cars.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by dewmercer »

We agree??? That's weird dude. I change my stance. Rip it out!!!

Btw, good luck taking out 10k' of line. A monkey can lay it but pulling it out is dangerous. Don't get killed wrapped in a floating entanglement of poly something or other that is desirous of your valves and other things you can't reach.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by ljjames »

the assorted motor crafts in lake Washington and Elliot bay seem to be able to take out thousands and thousands and thousands of feet of line with remarkable ease much to everyones dismay :)

I find it a bit amusing that folks will go on and on about the Lake Crescent line that really doesn't serve much purpose (if you come from the school of 'train the way you race'), but it's a very select handful of folks who maintain the lines to the actual destinations that are being practiced for.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by dewmercer »

Good point. Wanna tear up a line? Have a some weird lake crescent rare trout derby.

Yes, we are a small group that use it. Does that mean that we shouldn't be allowed to?

LJ, just cuz it serves no purpose for you or most doesn't mean that it serves no purpose. I love that line. It's fun. A lot of other folks do too. Its not all about practice and training. I have had a lot of fun on it. You haven't, ok. I don't have much fun at C2 anymore but you don't hear me blathering on about pulling up the honey bear.
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by ljjames »

dewmercer wrote:I don't have much fun at C2 anymore but you don't hear me blathering on about pulling up the honey bear.
The honey bear is still there? Haven't dove C2 in ages. Should probably go back one of these dayz for annual baseline video dive to document changes in the i-beams...

With regards to pulling things out, I tend to stick to things like batteries and trash... and of course as this thread shows, one man's garbage is another man's line run ;)
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Re: Leftover Guide Lines in Lake Crescent

Post by H20doctor »

im amazed that divers go over there to do such a dive.... seems a long way to go for a tech dive / scooter run..
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