DIR approach

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kdupreez
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Re: DIR approach

Post by kdupreez »

+1 on what Kees said.. He is an absurdly awesome diver and dive mentor.

We (local GUE Seattle crowd) dive every Wednesday and most weekends.

You are welcome to PM me and we can get in touch on how to keep you in the loop about dives and activities we might plan.

I would also offer to dive with you anytime you are available in the area and would also be happy to provide you with all the info RE: GUE training, that you are inquiring about, so feel free to PM me if you need more info.

We are finishing up a GUE Fundamentals class tomorrow (Sunday) if you want to come on down to Alki Cove2 around noon and meet some of the GUE Instructors and local dive crowd.

Hope to see you in the water soon!

cheers

Koos
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DIR approach

Post by spatman »

Grateful Diver wrote:... and don't let someone else's negativity influence your decision to take your diving in whatever direction you feel is best for you.
+1 to this especially, and everything else Bob has posted in this thread. We have come a long way in bridging gaps and learning the art of acceptance. There is still some work to do, but we are in a much better place than we used to be.
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defied
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

It's like Choose Your Own Adventures up in here!

D
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Peter Guy »

OP -- as a PADI Instructor, GUE Fundies card holder, pre-UTD card holder and TDI Full Cave diver, I'd like to offer some long term advice on a training path.

Despite the wrongness of the "GUE Cult" comment, there IS one aspect of GUE training that is different from all of the other agencies (at least as far as I know -- Koos, if I'm wrong here, please correct) which is that GUE does not "give credit" to training from another agency EXCEPT Open Water. If it is your desire to do your Technical Training (either Tech or Cave) with GUE, you will have to have received a Fundies Tech Pass so if your end goal is GUE training for Cave or Wreck (but I don't believe there is any special Wreck prenetration class with GUE), start with Fundies.

But if you don't have your goal for GUE Technical/Cave training, then any path with the right instructor (and yes, it still IS the instructor) will get you there -- "there" being a team oriented, well schooled,"Unified Team" diver.

I believe we are fortunate to have many well trained instructors in this area who all have the same basic training (in many cases, trained by the same person who was the training director for GUE and who created UTD) and thus the same mindset.

Ok, and your AI computer -- don't worry about it. In all of my classes I've had only one instructor require me to ditch my AI computer and that was a NAUI Technical Instructor! My GUE and UTD instructors (grudgingly) accepted it.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Marc »

If you want to do a south end dive, I would be happy to dive with you.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by json »

Thank all who have replied and offered advice and opportunities to dive. Unfortunately I couldn't make it out this weekend due to a prior obligation to DM a OW class. I am looking forward to diving with you all and learning new skills. I am available most weekends and am comfortable for any type of diving within the recreational limits. Also what would be a good manual to start learning history and some of the concepts behind DIR diving?
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Re: DIR approach

Post by spatman »

json wrote:Also what would be a good manual to start learning history and some of the concepts behind DIR diving?
There are some good nuggets of info in Jablonski's book, if you slog through the preachy parts:

http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.or ... ter-diving

(no disrespect to any team divers out there, this is just my opinion on the book)
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Re: DIR approach

Post by vbcoachchris »

Peter Guy wrote: Ok, and your AI computer -- don't worry about it. In all of my classes I've had only one instructor require me to ditch my AI computer and that was a NAUI Technical Instructor! My GUE and UTD instructors (grudgingly) accepted it.
:tappingfoot:
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Peter Guy »

[hijack]Scott, you actually remember?[end hijack]
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Joshua Smith
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Joshua Smith »

Peter Guy wrote:[hijack]Scott, you actually remember?[end hijack]
Hell, I remember, and I wasn't even there. The internet never forgets, right?
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Sounder »

Joshua Smith wrote:
Peter Guy wrote:[hijack]Scott, you actually remember?[end hijack]
Hell, I remember, and I wasn't even there. The internet never forgets, right?
I remember too. :rofl:
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Re: DIR approach

Post by airsix »

Sounder wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:
Peter Guy wrote:[hijack]Scott, you actually remember?[end hijack]
Hell, I remember, and I wasn't even there. The internet never forgets, right?
I remember too. :rofl:

Legend of the Cobra? Everybody knows that story. There's even a children's book. There was once a wise philosopher known far and wide, for wherever he went there was upon his hip... a snake! And it were many who eyed him with suspicion, for they placed their trust in analog gauges of brass. But the philosopher was intrepid and in time the people's fear of the snake faded like an old tls350...
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Joshua Smith »

airsix wrote:
Sounder wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:
Peter Guy wrote:[hijack]Scott, you actually remember?[end hijack]
Hell, I remember, and I wasn't even there. The internet never forgets, right?
I remember too. :rofl:

Legend of the Cobra? Everybody knows that story. There's even a children's book. There was once a wise philosopher known far and wide, for wherever he went there was upon his hip... a snake! And it were many who eyed him with suspicion, for they placed their trust in analog gauges of brass. But the philosopher was intrepid and in time the people's fear of the snake faded like an old tls350...
I love you, Ben.
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DIR approach

Post by spatman »

Joshua Smith wrote:
airsix wrote:
Sounder wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:
Peter Guy wrote:[hijack]Scott, you actually remember?[end hijack]
Hell, I remember, and I wasn't even there. The internet never forgets, right?
I remember too. :rofl:

Legend of the Cobra? Everybody knows that story. There's even a children's book. There was once a wise philosopher known far and wide, for wherever he went there was upon his hip... a snake! And it were many who eyed him with suspicion, for they placed their trust in analog gauges of brass. But the philosopher was intrepid and in time the people's fear of the snake faded like an old tls350...
I love you, Ben.
You say that to all the guys at one point or another.
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kdupreez
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Re: DIR approach

Post by kdupreez »

spatman wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:
airsix wrote:
Sounder wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:
Peter Guy wrote:[hijack]Scott, you actually remember?[end hijack]
Hell, I remember, and I wasn't even there. The internet never forgets, right?
I remember too. :rofl:

Legend of the Cobra? Everybody knows that story. There's even a children's book. There was once a wise philosopher known far and wide, for wherever he went there was upon his hip... a snake! And it were many who eyed him with suspicion, for they placed their trust in analog gauges of brass. But the philosopher was intrepid and in time the people's fear of the snake faded like an old tls350...
I love you, Ben.
You say that to all the guys at one point or another.
Yeah.. What the hell dude.. and here I thought I was special ?

:luv:
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Sea Goat »

json wrote:Also what would be a good manual to start learning history and some of the concepts behind DIR diving?
Spend some time on the GUE website, there's a lot of good stuff there, and I'm sure the UTD site is helpful too; I'm not as familiar with UTD, my post grad education has been with GUE.

If you ask any DIR diver in the PNW why they dive the way they dive, you'll get a lot of valuable information as well as some different perspectives. It's a very deliberate and conscious choice and people are very aware of their reasons for it, even if they got into it at the very beginning of their diving (like I did).

Cheers,

Maggie
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defied
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

Let me preface this by saying I'm sure I'm going to catch hell for this, but this is an opinion piece. For those who think they know me, you may feel better just ignoring this post.

Keep in mind that not all "DIR"ish minded divers are GUE or UTD. There are similar formats from divers with other training agency backgrounds. It's fast becoming a way of diving for divers, and not the way of diving for a certain certification agency.

I won't lay claim to any agency, because I'm across the board recreationally, technically, and commercially. I've been diving for way too long to agree with any one agency's educational requirements. The benefit of this is that I (among many others) can see an evolution in diving occurring in the PNW that is not controlled by any single agency. This is healthy, and everyone can learn by being open minded, and discussing their methodology to each other.

I value the information that comes out of GUE, UTD, NAUI, etc for diving in the Pacific Northwest. I've also found that it is reliant on the instructor. For instance, I know a few people who are PADI certified, and dive well because the instructors have tailored their classes for Puget Sound Waters, as opposed to Cozumel waters. It's those little modifications over time that create better divers fresh out of the gate.

That said, I don't agree with the agency's that sit a few people in a room and decide what the best diving procedures are for the masses, and lay it as a firm requirement. As there are more divers, styles, and equipment entering the market, keeping a training agency modular, and open to the "Social Network" of divers for input could become a key element for that agency's survival.

One thing I enjoyed learning in cave was "Trim matters... until you're in a vertical chute, crawling up the slope with one finger. At this point it's okay to go upright, and vent through your hose." That slayed me. How you dive absolutely depends on the environment you are in. Believing that GUE requires you to be trim and flat your entire dive is bullsh@t. In openwater, there is no reason not to be trim though. Wrecks and caves... different story. It's all based off of the conditions.

I know this will be taken as a slam, and if it is, I apologize, however, it's a great point of reference, but if you have to be perfectly trim to load a battery in a milk crate, you've wasted a lot of time. I will gladly dig my knees in to the muck, and haul that battery over. That saves me valuable minutes of gas and time. Maybe that's my hardhat days in the Gulf speaking, but I still hold to it.

This is, of course, dependent of the situation. If it's a battery laying on a coral outcrop, I will, of course, be as careful as I can be.

I do know that my skills will require me to function in limited to no visibility, using my hands to see, so blowing up a mud hill in the Puget Sound to get a battery in a milk crate, so I can move on to the next one should not be an issue to me (also keep in mind, when performing a job, the visibility for other divers recreationally diving the same area is not my concern [OR, I plan the event when there is minimal impact to other divers who dive the site]).

This is my 2 cents. I know people may disagree with me, and it is healthy and a good thing to post why you disagree. I'm always up for education.

D
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Nwbrewer »

Did somebody hack defied's account?
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Marc »

Same dickhead, more wisdom.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

Blitz wrote:Same dickhead, more wisdom.
+1
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Joshua Smith »

Blitz wrote:Same dickhead, more wisdom.
:grin:
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Re: DIR approach

Post by BDub »

defied wrote:That said, I don't agree with the agency's that sit a few people in a room and decide what the best diving procedures are for the masses, and lay it as a firm requirement. As there are more divers, styles, and equipment entering the market, keeping a training agency modular, and open to the "Social Network" of divers for input could become a key element for that agency's survival.
I can't speak for anything other than UTD. However, when we created the initial UTD curriculum (the curriculum I was involved in creating), it wasn't about deciding what the best diving practices were for the masses. It was about developing a curriculum based around the way the instructors participating in the initial IDC were diving at the time. It was never meant to appeal to the masses, and it was a niche segment within the diving population that certainly wouldn't appeal to everyone.
defied wrote:One thing I enjoyed learning in cave was "Trim matters... until you're in a vertical chute, crawling up the slope with one finger. At this point it's okay to go upright, and vent through your hose." That slayed me. How you dive absolutely depends on the environment you are in. Believing that GUE requires you to be trim and flat your entire dive is bullsh@t. In openwater, there is no reason not to be trim though. Wrecks and caves... different story. It's all based off of the conditions.
Absolutely! And what I teach, as well as other UTD instructors, is all skills in the class are done in trim. My belief is a diver should be able to accomplish any task in proper trim. The key phrase being be able to. And "proper trim" may be completely vertical, such as negotiating a vertical chute in a wreck or cave.

However, all tasks and skills in Essentials are done in horizontal trim, simply to build a foundation. How that applies to real life.....
defied wrote:I know this will be taken as a slam, and if it is, I apologize, however, it's a great point of reference, but if you have to be perfectly trim to load a battery in a milk crate, you've wasted a lot of time. I will gladly dig my knees in to the muck, and haul that battery over. That saves me valuable minutes of gas and time. Maybe that's my hardhat days in the Gulf speaking, but I still hold to it.
To expand on my point above, there's a difference between digging your knees in to the muck to do a job because you have decided that's what works best in that situation and digging your knees in to the muck because you don't have the skills to do it in trim. In the first scenario, you've decided digging in is the best tool for the job. The second, you're digging in because you don't have the skills to do it any other way.

Personally, I'd probably do it in trim, because I don't want to silt the place out any more than I have to, by kneeling, and plus if I wiped out any critter communities while kneeling, I'd get a scolding :angry: , but that is simply what I'd do. Nothing against the way you'd do it. That very well may be more productive.
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It is about skillsets.

Post by Marc »

Some dives require flat positioning, non-silting kicks and excellent buoyancy. Some require standing on the bottom with a hard hat and 70#s of lead.

If you are crawling through the opening of Peacock 1 being in head down trim is necessary. Similarly being in head trim might be equally as necessary if you have your head stuck under a log photographing an octo.

This extends to gear as well. Using a double end bolt snap and a bungie are fine in open water, but if your primary dies in a confined space like a cave or wreck, it hangs too low and maybe you get snagged on something.

Philosophies need to be modified based on the environment of the dive. You can scissor kick just fine 3 feet above the reef in Palau, it doesn’t stir up the bottom. Do that here and your buddies are going to give you grief about blowing up the dive site.

Pick what philosophy works for your environment, practice it and then pass it on to new divers.

Marc
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Re: DIR approach

Post by kdupreez »

+1 on what Brian said about being in trim and have good bouyancy for the type of recreational diving we do..

For me personally, if I have the skill to do this, why would I not prefer to exercise that position in the water? Good trim makes my horizontal movement in the water efficient (drag is a square of energy function to move horizontally in the water).. that means I use less energy, my air lasts longer, my boyancy is much easier to control (more drag vertically, means easier buoyancy control).. That and I wont kill a piece of 100 year old brain coral with an accidental whack of my fin..

to each his own and just because you do it differently, doesnt mean its not working for you.. it also doesnt mean what I'm doing is wrong..like b-dub said "that is simply what I'd do. Nothing against the way you'd do it. That very well may be more productive."
Last edited by kdupreez on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

Great statements from all of you, and as much as the OP will benefit from what you just posted, I think you are focusing on the wrong part of my post (The personal example).

It's good you are letting other divers know that you practice horizontal trim in the water, I do too. I try to be as flat as possible in training (repeat: In Training).
However, if the agency requires perfect trim during skills as a pass (eg: the diver can perform the skills with ease in the water, but at a 45 degree angle, thus failing), I think that might be a little strict.

I also think it would be difficult in trim hauling a 12" ID, 8' pipe coupler to mate to a retrofit.


That said, my point of the post should be read over again. As the OP is interested in DIR, I was stating that focusing on the DIR Approach should not be agency dependent.

The intent was to let the OP know that GUE and UTD are not the only options out there, nor is any other agency. The community is the big educational strong point, and I would suggest that regardless of which agency the OP goes with, he keep an unbiased view of other divers methodology, which could help him enhance his further diving education.

If he felt the urge to choose an agency, and stick with it completely, I would strongly urge choosing one which is modular in nature, and willing to evolve with the community.

D
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