DIR approach

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kdupreez
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Re: DIR approach

Post by kdupreez »

The OP question was:
Just looking for little info on the UTD/GUE dives that go on here. I am about to finish up my PADI Dive master and would like to move on to another agency for higher diving education. I dive a 95% DIR kit already and love it, much more streamed lined . Just not ready to give up my Aries AI comp yet lol. I heard tweek dives happen Wednesday nights but I can not make those due to work. Any information would be appreciated,thanks.
And all personal viewpoints and opinions regarding what he needs or wants aside, I think the OP had his questions answered.

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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

kdupreez wrote:The OP question was:
Just looking for little info on the UTD/GUE dives that go on here. I am about to finish up my PADI Dive master and would like to move on to another agency for higher diving education. I dive a 95% DIR kit already and love it, much more streamed lined . Just not ready to give up my Aries AI comp yet lol. I heard tweek dives happen Wednesday nights but I can not make those due to work. Any information would be appreciated,thanks.
And all personal viewpoints and opinions regarding what he needs or wants aside, I think the OP had his questions answered.

Koos
Which, as the post is not NHZ, and this is a relevant discussion, I take to mean you don't want to talk about it.

D
Last edited by defied on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by BDub »

defied wrote:It's good you are letting other divers know that you practice horizontal trim in the water, I do too. I try to be as flat as possible in training (repeat: In Training).
However, if the agency requires perfect trim during skills as a pass (eg: the diver can perform the skills with ease in the water, but at a 45 degree angle, thus failing), I think that might be a little strict.

I also think it would be difficult in trim hauling a 12" ID, 8' pipe coupler to mate to a retrofit.

That said, my point of the post should be read over again. As the OP is interested in DIR, I was stating that focusing on the DIR Approach should not be agency dependent.

The intent was to let the OP know that GUE and UTD are not the only options out there, nor is any other agency. The community is the big educational strong point, and I would suggest that regardless of which agency the OP goes with, he keep an unbiased view of other divers methodology, which could help him enhance his further diving education.

If he felt the urge to choose an agency, and stick with it completely, I would strongly urge choosing one which is modular in nature, and willing to evolve with the community.

D
Well, to answer your point more directly, part of team diving is being in the proper "position". If you are going to stay in the proper position, you need to have control of your buoyancy, kicks, etc. Proper trim directly effects your buoyancy control, kick efficiency, etc. That's why the most basic classes focus on those aspects. Because before you can be a good teammate, you need to have control of those skills.

It's not uncommon for a student to enter Essentials with a fairly decent handle on buoyancy control and/or trim and/or kicks, independently. However, when they try to combine all of those at once, or throw in a basic 6 or airshare, they go into 45 degree trim, start sculling, etc and the resulting mushroom cloud is erupting. From a team diving approach, this is unacceptable, because you're unnecessarily limiting visibility. If there's a 3rd teammate, they are likely outside of the plume, or possibly engulfed in it. It doesn't really matter, as it's going to be tough to keep the team together.

These skills are in no way exclusive to UTD. However, my students are paying me to teach them team diving, and help them to acquire the precise skills noted above, as they are critical (though not exclusive) to team diving. It's my job to teach them how to perform those skills, and help them to achieve proficiency with them, to very high standards. It's their job to apply (or not apply) those skills/tools to their own diving, after the class.

Additionally, if a student does go "out of trim" (I don't have a 0 degree, or 45 degree, or any other degree of pass/fail, as Essentials isn't a pass/fail class), if they can provide me with an explanation why, then great. If they go out of trim because they can't remain in trim, then it's time to revisit their balance, kicks, etc.

They also get to break trim on ascent, to look above them, vent their drysuit, etc.

Fast forward to more technical/advanced training...they are put into many situations where horizontal trim is not the best option, or maybe impossible. But, before they get there, they have become very proficient with horizontal trim.

It's not about teaching them how they must dive. It's about giving them the skills to dive in the manner that they are paying me to teach them. How they choose to dive after the training is completely up to them.

And has been stated earlier in this thread, GUE and UTD are not the only options for this, especially locally.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

Beautifully put. Thanks Brian!

D
BDub wrote:
defied wrote:...snip...
Well, to answer your point more directly...Snip...
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Re: DIR approach

Post by kdupreez »

defied wrote:
kdupreez wrote:The OP question was:
Just looking for little info on the UTD/GUE dives that go on here. I am about to finish up my PADI Dive master and would like to move on to another agency for higher diving education. I dive a 95% DIR kit already and love it, much more streamed lined . Just not ready to give up my Aries AI comp yet lol. I heard tweek dives happen Wednesday nights but I can not make those due to work. Any information would be appreciated,thanks.
And all personal viewpoints and opinions regarding what he needs or wants aside, I think the OP had his questions answered.

Koos
Which, as the post is not NHZ, and this is a relevant discussion, I take to mean you don't want to talk about it.

D
Dafydd, Im not going to try and convince you to the validity of the GUE/UTD approach, that point is clearly moot and this is not the place for it.

The OP had his questions answered.. There are tons of information about GUE/UTD/DIR diving and I am very sure you are not clueless as to the background of it..

If not, this video will help alot: What GUE has Always been about.

Dude, intent, emotion and all kinds of context gets lost in forums, emails, etc.. So instead of entering into public debate about GUE and UTD's training curriculum, training philosophy and long term aspirations and the "WHY" behind what we do, feel free to hit me or Brian up on a PM and join us for dive and a beer sometime if you;d like to get some personal face time with us and our style of diving in order to understand what we ar all about. I do find, BTW, that even when extending these offers, they are 99.9% of the time not taken up.
K
Last edited by kdupreez on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Marc »

Just my opinion. And that doesn't mean much, but Defied is one of the better team divers I have dived with.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

kdupreez wrote:Dafydd, Im not going to try and convince you to the validity of Team diving and the GUE/UTD approach, that point is clearly moot and this is not the place for it.

The OP had his questions answered.. There are tons of information about GUE/UTD/DIR diving and I am very sure you are not clueless as to the background of it..

intent, emotion and all kinds of context gets lost in forums, emails, etc.. So instead of entering into public debate about GUE and UTD's training curriculum, training philosophy and long term aspirations and the "WHY" behind what we do, feel free to hit me or Brian up on a PM and join us for dive and a beer sometime if you;d like to get some personal face time with us and our style of diving in order to understand what we ar all about. I do find, BTW, that even when extending these offers, they are 99.9% of the time not taken up.
K
I don't think I ever asked you to validate GUE/UTD/DIR diving to me. There should be no debate.

The only intent I have here is letting the OP know his options.

I'm not sure what you are being defensive about. I'm not knocking on any agency, nor do I care to.

Let's put this on the record:

I, Dafydd Rhys-Jones, am NOT BIASED towards any agency. I've found many useful educational points of knowledge from each. There, I said it.
I dive with Spartan Diving. We are a dive team, who trust each other, have dove with a team mentality for quite some time now, and we discuss any deviations accordingly. We dive standard pockets, two backup lights, and even the same size 40mm catheters ( >0] j/k...sorta...).

What I am saying is the OP should be aware that there are tons of options to explore, and recommend he go with the most modular agency. If you are being defensive because GUE isn't modular, that's not my problem.

I am not saying GUE, or UTD, or NAUI, ADC, IANTD, NACD, TDI, or Billy Bob's school of snorkeling isn't modular. The OP is asking in order to learn. I will try not to form his opinion of any one agency. I'm offering my bit of guidance, just like everyone else on this thread.

I'm also stating my opinion to keep his head on a swivel and continue learning, and building his system based off of all information available to him.

You are focusing on the example opinion I posted of how I modify a dive based on the circumstances. That's not the important target of discussion. That was an example.

And I'm always down for beer. Let's make it happen. Monkey dive, Saturday 8AM at Les Davis. Beers at the Spar afterwards?

D
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

Blitz wrote:Just my opinion. And that doesn't mean much, but Defied is one of the better team divers I have dived with.
Be careful, people might think you're ... nice... *shudder.

D
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Marc »

Just to you, sweety.... Just to you.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by kdupreez »

defied wrote:And I'm always down for beer. Let's make it happen. Monkey dive, Saturday 8AM at Les Davis. Beers at the Spar afterwards
Sweet! I'll be at the Project Baseline dive at Saltwater on Saturday.. how 'bouts Sunday?

where do you source your cath's btw.. Canadian Tyre is in short supply of inner tubes lately ;)
Last edited by kdupreez on Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

kdupreez wrote:
defied wrote:And I'm always down for beer. Let's make it happen. Monkey dive, Saturday 8AM at Les Davis. Beers at the Spar afterwards
Sweet! I'll be at the Project Baseline dive at Saltwater on Saturday.. how 'bouts Sunday?
Let me find out from my scheduler. There usually has to be a day for honey-do's.

D
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Tom Nic »

defied wrote: ...and even the same size 40mm catheters ( >0] j/k...sorta...).
OK, I find this vaguely disturbing. :tomnic:

I know part of team diving is the interchangeability of everyone's equipment.... but... really?!? :luv: :joshsmith: :calvin:

:rofl:
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

Tom Nic wrote:
defied wrote: ...and even the same size 40mm catheters ( >0] j/k...sorta...).
OK, I find this vaguely disturbing. :tomnic:

I know part of team diving is the interchangeability of everyone's equipment.... but... really?!? :luv: :joshsmith: :calvin:

:rofl:
Yeah, the failover and donation is all a little awkward.

D
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Re: DIR approach

Post by lamont »

defied wrote: One thing I enjoyed learning in cave was "Trim matters... until you're in a vertical chute, crawling up the slope with one finger. At this point it's okay to go upright, and vent through your hose." That slayed me. How you dive absolutely depends on the environment you are in. Believing that GUE requires you to be trim and flat your entire dive is bullsh@t. In openwater, there is no reason not to be trim though. Wrecks and caves... different story. It's all based off of the conditions.
And my GUE C1 instructor made a point of addressing not overusing the rear dump and the silliness of trying to use it when ascending out of a cave. Its also easier to go head up in open water and vent both the drysuit and the corrugated hose at the same time. I'd already gotten that message, though.

And you can't vent properly without breaking trim, and I've watched divers beginning to ascend out of control in perfect trim while not being able to vent their wing and drysuit because someone had told them to do that. Bob Sherwood made a point of teaching us that you must break trim in order to vent and in order to move position. Its perfectly fine to go head up/down and kick if you need to go up/down, and its the fastest way to start making a buoyancy shift. In the case of a runaway inflator you're need to go head down and kick like hell at some point, your lung buoyancy will not work enough for you. This came up in the discussion of trim standards and the +/- 20 degree trim standard applies to your resting default position. If you break trim up and kick to move between deco stops and roll and dump that's fine, but you must return to 20 degree trim at the stop when you're not moving (and there's all kinds of good reasons for that).

So not only is perfect trim not appropriate for cave or wreck, but perfect trim all the time is bad for open water too.

So, I'm not quite certain what you're arguing about since you're attempting to be vague, when it'd just be nicer if you'd just stop being disingenuous and spit it out so that it can get addressed. But if you're saying that GUE teaches you to be in trim all the time, that is simply wrong, and I'm really tired of debunking that issue all the time. And mostly I think that meme keeps on getting spread on the internet by people who aren't GUE trained and it just means that divers show up thinking they need to be board flat all the time, which is not correct.
I know this will be taken as a slam, and if it is, I apologize, however, it's a great point of reference, but if you have to be perfectly trim to load a battery in a milk crate, you've wasted a lot of time. I will gladly dig my knees in to the muck, and haul that battery over. That saves me valuable minutes of gas and time. Maybe that's my hardhat days in the Gulf speaking, but I still hold to it.
Uhm, yeah, the fact that you say it isn't a slam doesn't really make it any less of a slam. That is just disingenuous.

I'll dig batteries out however it works for me, I don't really need your input, and the fact that you're raging against other people making decisions behind closed doors or whatever about how everyone dives and you're willing to directly slam me and laura while sitting behind your keyboard is completely hypocritical. Thanks for pissing all over something that I'd been doing for a bit of fun and enjoyment.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by lamont »

here's also something that i wrote up on trim last year:

http://www.scriptkiddie.org/blog/2011/08/04/trim-nazis/

and i've been known to actually lie down in the silt in high current at the junkyard. if you're taking a break, you might as well actually take a break and not build up CO2, and any silt you kick up is going to quickly be carried away from you -- although you still don't need a make a gawdawful mess of silt when you do it either...

similarly, i've wedged myself into a wreck in current in order to do work (work that required being exposed to that current). trying to stay in trim not touching anything and kicking against a current while doing work like that is just a recipe for CO2 build up, which is the last thing that GUE is about...
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Sea Goat »

defied wrote:However, if the agency requires perfect trim during skills as a pass (eg: the diver can perform the skills with ease in the water, but at a 45 degree angle, thus failing), I think that might be a little strict.
You think thats strict? Try doing it with no more than a 2 foot allowable depth change, 10 feet off the bottom, or you don't pass. That gets interesting!

The ability to do skills while staying in trim at the same depth is important in an emergency, so that you don't silt the place out or lose buoyancy control when you're dealing with a problem. This can make the difference between someone living and dying. If its not second nature, you won't do it when it counts. The only way that it becomes second nature is to do it all the time. Doing it all the time requires doing it all. the. time.

I do research diving sometimes, and my complete lack of any commercial or NOAA training or any background in science was overcome by being able to hover completely still and not silt things up at all. That's why I get hired. This is very handy during video surveys, for example. Its also much easier to manage a clipboard and measuring tape in blowing current if you stay in trim, face into the current, and use a few lazy frog kicks, rather than kneel and create a bigger profile for the current to push against. Also, a solid back kick is the tool I use the most in my diving, hands down, and most divers don't know they can even do it.

You can't choose the best tool for the job if you don't actually have the most awesome tools in the first place.

Ok there's a dirty joke there somewhere, I think. Where is Sounder when you need him?

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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

I'll be brief as I am on my phone, and heading in to a meeting.

Lamont,
I briefly read your response. please re-read my post, and you will see I said the belief that GUE requires that is BS.
if course I was vague, I was trying not to point out any specific agency.

And as far as the battery example, I'm very happy you are doing this. This is something Laura and I had talked about a while ago, and I think it's a great idea. I'm also not slamming how you do it. I am saying I would do it differently.


Maggie,
That is a very good point. Thank you.

D
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Re: DIR approach

Post by lamont »

defied wrote: And as far as the battery example, I'm very happy you are doing this. This is something Laura and I had talked about a while ago, and I think it's a great idea. I'm also not slamming how you do it. I am saying I would do it differently.
Yet you are not doing it, so I'd say you need to keep your opinions about it to yourself.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Norris »

lamont wrote:
defied wrote: And as far as the battery example, I'm very happy you are doing this. This is something Laura and I had talked about a while ago, and I think it's a great idea. I'm also not slamming how you do it. I am saying I would do it differently.
Yet you are not doing it, so I'd say you need to keep your opinions about it to yourself.

Yikes
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Grateful Diver »

Some years back, when Dave Greenwood and I inquired about removing those batteries from Cove II, we were told by the P&R folks to leave them alone ... that disturbing them would cause more pollution than leaving them there.

I was always bothered by that response ... and I'm glad that they're being taken out. It matters not at all to me who's doing it, or how they do it.

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Re: DIR approach

Post by Joshua Smith »

This conversation is becoming too pointed and personal. Please don't force us to lock it.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Marc »

Did Lamont just bow up on someone? Wow. Thanks for this thread, I needed a good laugh today....
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Re: DIR approach

Post by defied »

(I enjoy nice things)

D
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Joshua Smith »

defied wrote:(I enjoy nice things)

D
Come on, dude. I don't want to ban you again, and I really don't appreciate the extra hassle this thread is adding to my day. This site is not for picking fights.
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Re: DIR approach

Post by Sea Goat »

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