Dog shooting in Des Moines

[John Rawlings]

Yeah, I respect police officers a great deal and usually have the knee-jerk reaction to support the police in situations no matter what, but I can really find no justification here....I'm appalled.

[Geek]

FB group for Rosie

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=gro ... 3500071259

[CaptnJack]

We will be there starting at 2pm until 4pm tomorrow. More info on our website:
http://www.newfclubseattle.org/

[dwashbur]

That the owner allowed that tells me either they don't love the dog as much as they claim, or they are incredibly out of touch with reality.

With respect, shit happens. Every so often a dog might get out despite an owner's best efforts. We don't know what the circumstances were that left the dog outside, so I'm not sure this is a fair assessment.

[Raydar]

It stems from a lack of basic self-reliance, people. If you neighbor's dog is loose pick up the phone and call your neighbor. When you outsource basic problem solving these are the results you get.

+1

If a dog wanders through the yard, I'm not going to call the cops. On the other hand, if any dog threatens me or mine, the cops won't need to be called.

The entire incident is tragic. I would bet a scooter ride that the officer who fired the shots has extremely limited exposure to dogs. Fear of dogs + gun + limited accountability = dead dog.

Btw, what were they thinking when they tasered her? I've seen Richard's hound. Underneath all the hair is something the size of a big headed chihuahua.

[ArcticDiver]

That the owner allowed that tells me either they don't love the dog as much as they claim, or they are incredibly out of touch with reality.

With respect, shit happens. Every so often a dog might get out despite an owner's best efforts. We don't know what the circumstances were that left the dog outside, so I'm not sure this is a fair assessment.

Guess we can differ without being enemies. Let me give you a bit more on my perspective.

I've owned dogs. Don't now because I spend a lot of time traveling and it isn't fair to the dog to be kenneled that much. I know lots of dog owners. Some who run literally tens of dogs. It is rare that one gets loose or off the dog's own property. In my housing area there are lots of dogs. There are a couple of owners whose philosophy is that the dogs deserve to be "free" and don't sweat them getting out occasionally. All the rest of the dogs never, never leave their property without being on leash.

In short, a dog can stray. But, by nature dogs are pack animals. Mostly they are reluctant to leave home. Plus, if the newspaper article is accurate this dog had no identification; no collar. In my mind a dog with no collar is different than one with a collar and I treat the former with a great deal of caution and suspicion. I'll bet there are very few dog owners who love their dogs who don't have them collared and who don't take care to keep them safe at home.

BUT, I don't want to stray too far from what with present knowledge I consider to be the primary problem: Abysmally poor actions by the police.

[Grateful Diver]

Here's what I don't understand. The dog was in her own driveway when the cops showed up. According to the news account, the police asked the neighbor if they knew whose dog it was and the neighbor said no.

Huh?? The dog lives there ... the neighbor lives next door. Yet the neighbor doesn't know whose dog it is?

Something smells bad here.

... which leaves me wondering who called the police in the first place ... and why ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Mongodives]

big dog, outside, owner not home, neighbor doesn't know dog. Cop is intimidated by dog, dog gets tazed.

Escalation of force is required for people not animals. Stop, get on your knees, hands overhead doesn't work for animals.

Lucky cop didn't shoot dog with gun, then find out who owned dog, cited them for having a dangerous animal, then sue the owner for emotional distress for having been forced to shoot Ol Yeller.

If I was in the cops shoes, I would have just let the dog take its chances with traffic and told the neighbor to find out who is neighbors are and stop calling the police for stupid s*&t.

[dwashbur]

That the owner allowed that tells me either they don't love the dog as much as they claim, or they are incredibly out of touch with reality.

With respect, shit happens. Every so often a dog might get out despite an owner's best efforts. We don't know what the circumstances were that left the dog outside, so I'm not sure this is a fair assessment.

Guess we can differ without being enemies. Let me give you a bit more on my perspective.

I've owned dogs. Don't now because I spend a lot of time traveling and it isn't fair to the dog to be kenneled that much. I know lots of dog owners. Some who run literally tens of dogs. It is rare that one gets loose or off the dog's own property. In my housing area there are lots of dogs. There are a couple of owners whose philosophy is that the dogs deserve to be "free" and don't sweat them getting out occasionally. All the rest of the dogs never, never leave their property without being on leash.

I have one now, and although we do our absolute best to have him on a leash any time he goes out, sometimes he can be a slippery little fellow. I definitely do NOT agree with the "be free" mentality, because especially regarding traffic, dogs have no brain and need to be protected from themselves. I was just saying that we don't really know the circumstances surrounding this particular dog being out.

In short, a dog can stray. But, by nature dogs are pack animals. Mostly they are reluctant to leave home. Plus, if the newspaper article is accurate this dog had no identification; no collar. In my mind a dog with no collar is different than one with a collar and I treat the former with a great deal of caution and suspicion. I'll bet there are very few dog owners who love their dogs who don't have them collared and who don't take care to keep them safe at home.

Yes, the no collar thing is a bit of a puzzle. At the same time, the dog was in its own driveway, and since SOMEBODY knew it was his driveway, SOMEBODY knew whose dog it was. So there's a lot we aren't being told here.

BUT, I don't want to stray too far from what with present knowledge I consider to be the primary problem: Abysmally poor actions by the police.

I couldn't agree more. We are very much on the same page here.

[mattwave]

What a messed up story, there has to be some accountability!! How can there not be, an officer can just shoot an animal?? I miss my Newfies, I love my dog, this sucks. Poor Rosie

[CaptnJack]

Some photos and press coverage from today.
http://www.highlinetimes.com/2010/11/14 ... sees-dogs-

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/1080 ... ?tab=video

There are also some great photos on facebook, I think this album is public:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/alb ... =513884379

All the Newfies were great, we had a total of:
9 Carting Newfs with flowers
20 Non-carting Newfs

And
6 Carting Saints with flowers (the Wright's other dog is a Saint)
2 Non-carting Saints
1 Belgian Tervuren
1 Sheltie
1 Chihuahua
1 Rottweiler
1 Alaskan Malamute
1 Mixed Breed (looked like a Labradoodle with a Newf or flatcoat retriever family)
3 Dachsunds
1 Pug
1 Leonberger

All in a pretty small yard and no growling or dog (or people) fights whatsoever. The flowers the dogs delivered were sent by companion animal owners worldwide to a Des Moines florist. The Mayor attended as a citizen and I was impressed with his sincerity to independently review the incident and make changes. The Wrights were quite moved by the extended family they didn't know they had (they were not Newfoundland Club of Seattle members). So far, we are considering the day a success.

[kat]

carting?

[CaptnJack]

Newfoundlands are working dogs with 2 historic roles: water rescue of fishermen and as draft animals. The first role is obvious, they are excellent swimmers with webbed feet and a double layer air trapping coat. The second role is more complicated. There's no grass or fodder for things like ox or horses in the Province of Newfoundland, Canada. Its windswept tundra with stunted trees. So Newfoundland dogs were logical draft animals. They hauled nets for fishermen and were used on rocky shorelines to haul carts of shellfish, seaweed, and other products of the sea. Today they hauled flowers.

In addition to other AKC type dog events, the Newfoundland Club of Seattle hosts water rescue and draft events to continue to showcase and illustrate the historic roles of the "gentle giant" as Newfoundlands are commonly known. Draft tests are in the spring and/or fall when the weather is cooler, we also have a Christmas tree pull in late November/early Dec to raise money for our rescue funds (abandoned/orphaned Newfoundland care and re-homing). The Christmas tree pull is "real" draft work and the dogs love it. Our water test is the 3rd week of August. The public is welcome at any of our events.

There's a calender here (http://www.newfclubseattle.org/calendar.html) , 2011 will get filled in sometime around February.

[Blaiz]

I have to say richard that your enthusiasm for the Newfies is touching and impressive

[kat]

wow, i had never heard of dogs as "carters" before. thank you for the info, and for the support that you provided the owners and community.

[CaptnJack]

King5 coverage which apparently led off after the football game last night.
http://www.king5.com/news/pets-and-anim ... 75739.html

We've heard rumors that there are over 1000 dog shootings by police annually and last year all of them happened without an animal control officer being present and assessing the situation (as in this case). Police are trained to use escalating force to achieve compliance and anyone who's done any dog training at all knows that this is often a poor strategy. So while some shootings are no doubt justified, to us its having the wrong people using techniques and strategies which are known to be ineffective for animals. Just per the police report, barking, charging to about a body length away and then running away and hiding are ordinary Newfoundland behaviors when they are defensive yet scared.

I spoke with the mayor yesterday and while very soft spoken he seemed very sincere about having an independent review of the incident and improving.

edit: apparently similar issues have prompted Oakland to require animal behavior training for all their officers:
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sectio ... id=7722085

Which all seems sort of obvious when you have 30,000 residents with ~8,000 dogs in a small city like Des Moines, WA.

[Lonestar]

Des Moines does have Animal Control. In fact their Animal Control officer is absoultely outstanding. She can't not and does not work 24/7. In her absence DMPD is tasked with handling animal complaints. This works the same throughout King County. If AC isn't available then the police handle the call. Why isn't AC readily available? BECAUSE FOLKS DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR THE SERVICE. Did KC not try to get rid of King County AC? Hello.

Well then it just makes sense to train the po-po up on AC's duties right? Well let's see, in the PNW the police receive an absolute minimum amount of training to maintain proficencies in the skills required to perform their job. Why in the world would we expect them to train to be AC when they don't get the flipping training they need for their own job?????? The officer who shot the dog laughed after he shot it? Do you know why? Did he think it was funny or was it his stress release mechanism for having to shoot? Do you know? I sure don't so why would I make a supposition? It could be for either reason, I don't know and what good is my commenting on it if I could as easily be wrong as right?

Is there an answer, yeah. BE WILLING TO PAY FOR THE SERVICES YOU EXPECT AND QUIT $%^&% ABOUT IT. DMPD laid off 8 officers this year, King County Sheriff is on the verge of laying off 28 deputies. FW is laying off officers. Yet KC just annouced that they are buying the gravel pit on Maury Island for a mere $36 million and turning it into a park. Seems that the po-po iand AC aren't the priority to me.

I take what I see in the media, ESPECIALLY on TV, with a grain of salt. Just a couple of months ago a SPD officer was villianized in the media for punching a girl in the face. Folks sure teed off on SPD because of the TV reports didn't they? And what of the outcome of that? Use of force was justified and the girl stepped up and took responsiblity for being the problem. (what a concept that is). Someone threw in the closed knife comment. What is the basis of that media report? An unidentified source. Wow. Lets all jump on that.

Maybe we should wait until these investigations are closed and the FACTS are out BEFORE we get all worked up over them. And don't get me wrong, I too am saddened by the Newfy getting shot. My hope, but not my expectation, is that not only DM but also the region will take this as a transformational event and put and keep in place the services that you and I expect as citizens.

[CaptnJack]

My hope, but not my expectation, is that not only DM but also the region will take this as a transformational event and put and keep in place the services that you and I expect as citizens.

The City of Oakland's program I linked above is (generously) paid for by donations/volunteers. At least right now, seems like there is enough interest/motivation for something similar here, there don't seem to be (m)any negatives to the concept.

[Lonestar]

And again, why are we putting more under the umbrella of services provided by the police that are the responsiblity of other agencies? How about instead of people donating money and "expertise" to training the police to be doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place they step up and formulate some sort of volunteer AC service to augment career AC? The cops are getting laid off. THere are less of them. Why try and put more under their umbrella when they are reducing the services that they are suppose to be providing? If the choice is between the police investigating my burglary or being able to recognize a vicious dog than guess what, I'm wanting them to investigate my burglary because that is what they are suppose to do. Just like I wouldn't want the fire dept coming out to handle a loose dog call. I want them fighting fires and handling aid calls, that's their job. If there is a problem with a dog I want AC taking care of it.

[CaptnJack]

Me too, but in many many communities across the country that's not the case - despite animal control staff being alot cheaper than LEOs.

[Diver_C]

BE WILLING TO PAY FOR THE SERVICES YOU EXPECT AND QUIT $%^&% ABOUT IT. King County Sheriff is on the verge of laying off 28 deputies.

Yes, because they refused to give up their 5% pay raise, which, had they done so, would have saved all the officers' jobs. They are getting what they essentially asked for.

Someone threw in the closed knife comment. What is the basis of that media report?

Police report, police pictures, and the inquest report.

Maybe we should wait until these investigations are closed and the FACTS are out BEFORE we get all worked up over them.

The lady who's property the police shot Rosie on was very factual, and on those undisputed facts, the police behavior was outrageous! I do expect an officer not to shoot a dog just because it is running loose, and nothing more.

[Grateful Diver]

DMPD laid off 8 officers this year, King County Sheriff is on the verge of laying off 28 deputies. FW is laying off officers.

If I could put it to a vote tomorrow, I'd vote to eliminate KCS and FWPD altogether ... they're useless. Unless they can find a reason to give you ticket, they wouldn't even stop to help you on the highway.

My neighbor had his house broken into earlier this year. He called the FWPD. Know that they told him? Log into a website and fill out a report ... they wouldn't even waste their time sending out an officer. Why would they? There wasn't anybody they could issue a ticket to. Some punk steals your car ... you think the police are gonna help you get it back? Don't count on it ... they don't have the "resources" ... not unless there's a way they can make money on it.

The FWPD has become a wholly-owned subsidiary of a for-profit company in Tempe, Arizona that makes traffic cams. That's all they're good for ... it's all they do. Sit on their asses and collect money from otherwise honest citizens who might cross the white stripe before stopping, or fail to come to a complete stop before turning right into an empty intersection. They don't even pretend it has anything to do with public safety ... it says right on the notice you get (from the Federal Way PD of Tempe, Arizona) that it counts as a parking ticket. Go figure ... $125 and up for a parking ticket.

Until the police decide to change their priorities back to public safety rather than fund-raising, I don't support them at all ... I don't even respect their badge anymore. They're just another government bureaucracy looking for ways to separate me from my money.

Screw 'em ... they don't deserve my support. Since they're obviously not concerned with my safety, I don't need them. It doesn't surpise me they're out shooting people's pets ... it only surprises me that they didn't figure out a way to issue a ticket to the dog's owner ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Tom Nic]

OK everyone - time to back away from the keyboard.

NWDC cops get paid LOTS less than our fine folks in blue, and we'd just as soon let the citizenry work things out on their own, but this thread is starting to slide....

Please.

[Fishstiq]

I've typed and deleted 4 responses to this thread in the last day and a half. Let's see what happens this time.

Imagine if you will...

You are a cop. You get called to the scene of a large dog with no identification tags running in traffic. You arrive and try to catch the dog with a catch pole. No success. During this process, the dog shows his teeth, growls, barks and charges repeatedly and turns away at the last moment each time (all those behaviors are in the "news" articles btw). Other officers arrive, you attempt to tazer the dog, also with little or no success. The dog then goes into neighbors back yard. The neighbor has multiple children in the home and at least one small pet. You now have a dog You perceive to be aggressive in the back yard of the home of at least 4 potential victims. The homeowners small pet has run out of the home twice (also in the articles), so clearly there is still no solid containment.

I'm not saying the police were correct in their assessment, actions or decisions. I am saying maybe there is more here than anyone on this board knows about or realizes. I also believe reading the newspaper or watching tv news is a sorry excuse for gathering information, but that's just me being cynical.

I know my little scenario is speculation based on fact, but so are the printed reports so far. I agree there should be a review of the incident to inform the public of all the facts so they can make an informed opinion and decision. Richard, the memorial for Rosie was more than awesome. This is a very tragic event, and a huge loss for the family. It won't do anyone any good to simply have a knee-jerk reaction and slam the cops though until the whole truth is known.

[CaptnJack]

OK everyone - time to back away from the keyboard.

NWDC cops get paid LOTS less than our fine folks in blue, and we'd just as soon let the citizenry work things out on their own, but this thread is starting to slide....

Please.

Ummm yes please.

Right now, I am working on helping Des Moines make good choices and improving locally. And also on a broader scale for LEO and companion animals nationwide. Please avoid posting material which locks this thread so that I can continue to keep you informed of these developments and issues in a non-confrontational manner.

Thank you
Richard
President, Newfoundland Club of Seattle