Dog shooting in Des Moines

[Lonestar]

I'll comply with that ^^^^^^ as I am very hopeful that you can make it happen.

Fishstiq, one of the navy guys I work with said that you were a good guy even if you were a marine and to tell you hi. Now if I could only remember which one of them said it!

[cardiver]

Remember though, that a navy guy told you that.......

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

[CaptnJack]

official 4 page Des Moines police report posted here:
http://www.trunewfsrescue.com/10-2533%2 ... 20case.pdf

[Lonestar]

Yeah, given that I was Army and Coast Guard I thought that too!

[Blaiz]

what's wrong with navy guys telling people stuff?


they tell me things all the time... <.<

[Fishstiq]

official 4 page Des Moines police report posted here:
http://www.trunewfsrescue.com/10-2533%2 ... 20case.pdf

Wow, that's a terrible story.

[airsix]

Joe, I am sorry that these are the circumstances that did it, but it's good to see you posting again.

[Fishstiq]

Joe, I am sorry that these are the circumstances that did it, but it's good to see you posting again.

Thanks Ben, I appreciate that. I've gotten a few emails from people saying similar things and asking where I've been, I'm surprised it was noticed.

[spatman]

Thanks Ben, I appreciate that. I've gotten a few emails from people saying similar things and asking where I've been, I'm surprised it was noticed.

don't be surprised, dude. we definitely miss you around here.

[Grateful Diver]

Joe who?



... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Lonestar]

Well best of luck in your endeavor Richard. Effecting systemic and cultural change is always a difficult task. Des Moines opted long ago to maintain their own AC and Jan is one of the best AC officers in the PNW, but one person alone can not provide 24/7 service.

In reading the report it is evident that poor choices were made. I applaud your efforts to have more training provided so as to allow for better decision making process in the future. However, I hope that you can address the root cause as well. Change is needed in DM's AC system. If the city wants to maintain their own AC program then they have to make the commitment to the program. I am a firm believer in public service. Involve the citizens. DMPD uses reserve officers. The vast majority of firefighters in America are volunteer. Why not institute an AC volunteer program? I am sure that it would not involve re-inventing the wheel as there is certainly a sucessful program somewhere in the US. I guess a good summation would be why just put on a band-aid if you can cure the disease instead?

[CaptnJack]

Yeah we are not looking for band-aids, nor are we the right people to take legal action. Not our role.

You may not agree, but the reality is that LEO are expected to be "first responders" to animal control calls in cities across the country. So we are working on a bigger project similar to the program instituted by the USPS mentioned in our op-ed here: http://www.highlinetimes.com/2010/11/17 ... ives-if-we

We have several partners on this project who should have national LEO credibility.

[Lonestar]

Oh trust me, I am very well aware of that. I think my opinions and suppositions go more to my thoughts regarding people taking ownership of their actions and taking active roles in their societies, government bureacracies and how taxes are spent. So as not to risk having the thread go astray again I'll leave it at that. Again, I applaud and appreciate your efforts and concerns and if no one has said it yet, thank you. - Tim

[Waynne Fowler]

though this really isn't a matter that's near or dear to my heart. I do love animals though! . I must say this thread has kept my attention, and FWIW I think the cop outta be bitch slapped for being a dumbass in this case... ignorant or not...

What struck me within this thread and kept me reading, has been CaptnJack's demeanor (and everyone elses for that matter) and his/everyones love for these animals.
Good on you Cap'n J... I hope you can affect some change for the better in the current state of affairs. It's rather strange but somehow I feel sorta proud to be in a community like this with all of you....

alright.... turnin off the "sappy" and goin back to my normal evilness

[CaptnJack]

Thanks Waynne, I'll be speaking before the City Council of Des Moines @ 7:30 tonight.

[dwashbur]

I may have overlooked something, so pardon me in advance if this is a dumb question: What's LEO?

[kat]

law enforcement officer

[airsix]

Thanks Waynne, I'll be speaking before the City Council of Des Moines @ 7:30 tonight.

I don't know what your speech will entail, whether it be a forward looking proposal, criticism of recent events, or a mixture. Regardless, one thing (and I'm trying very hard to be objective) I can't overlook is that the police report states that children were chasing the dog. That seems very telling to me. The police report repeatedly refers to the dog as a "vicious dog". Children do not chase a vicious dog. I do not doubt that the dog may have become vicious, however it seems clear that "vicious" was not the original condition. It would seem that if the animal did become vicious it was due to gross mishandling of the situation. I'm a very mild mannered person, but if you (repeatedly) tazer me, chase me with a car, corner me, and try to force a wire-rope noose around my neck, I am confident you will illicit a significant change in my demeanor. I've had enough experience with animals (horses mostly) to know that if an animal does not trust you AT MOST you have a single opportunity to secure it. If you blow it on the first try it's best for both of you to just walk away. In physical conflicts between two persons you can not claim self defense as justification of lethal force if you first place the other person in a threatening situation. That's a setup. And this dog was set-up IMHO.

[Diver_C]

I don't know what your speech will entail, whether it be a forward looking proposal, criticism of recent events, or a mixture. Regardless, one thing (and I'm trying very hard to be objective) I can't overlook is that the police report states that children were chasing the dog. That seems very telling to me. The police report repeatedly refers to the dog as a "vicious dog". Children do not chase a vicious dog. I do not doubt that the dog may have become vicious, however it seems clear that "vicious" was not the original condition. It would seem that if the animal did become vicious it was due to gross mishandling of the situation. I'm a very mild mannered person, but if you (repeatedly) tazer me, chase me with a car, corner me, and try to force a wire-rope noose around my neck, I am confident you will illicit a significant change in my demeanor. I've had enough experience with animals (horses mostly) to know that if an animal does not trust you AT MOST you have a single opportunity to secure it. If you blow it on the first try it's best for both of you to just walk away. In physical conflicts between two persons you can not claim self defense as justification of lethal force if you first place the other person in a threatening situation. That's a setup. And this dog was set-up IMHO.

[CaptnJack]

Here's what I posted to our Newfoundland Club distribution list, I guess you'd call it forward thinking. The family, the family's lawyer, and the City get to review the past. Call it a division of labor.

What a week, look how far we've come:
Sunday - Rosie shot
Tuesday - Highline Times story breaks
Wednesday - Despite not normally reviewing dog shootings, City calls for internal review
Sunday - Memorial Vigil. Mayor states report will be externally reviewed by 2 agencies
Today, Thursday - Mayor states in public council meeting that King County prosecutor will also be reviewing the report for criminal culpability.

Wow! Your letters, emails, calls and support are working!

After the Mayor read from prepared remarks, I delivered the NCS board's statement of policy changes and a petition with over 4,000 signatures calling for police accountability. Despite being substantial book of 240 pages, it was almost anticlimactic after hearing there was going to be a criminal culpability review by an outside prosecutor. In any case, I didn't read the following verbatim, but its my address to the Des Moines City council. Once again I would like to thank the Newfoundland community and all our other supporters here and around the globe for your support.
Newfoundly, Richard
NCS President


My name is Richard Jack, I am the President of the Newfoundland Club of Seattle. No doubt you have heard the news reports and witness statements regarding the tragic shooting of Rosie the Newfoundland by your police force last week. The 15 members of the Newfoundland Club of Seattle here with me tonight are not here alone. We have a petition with over 4,000 signatures from 43 countries calling for accountability across the Des Moines police department for last week's egregious actions. We understand that your investigation is pending and will be peer-reviewed by at least 2 outside entities. Because your investigation is ongoing, we trust in the process you have established and await its results.

I knows Des Moines feels they are under a microscope on this issue and quite frankly you are. This gives Des Moines a great opportunity to rise beyond this tragic occasion which is all too common across America. You have the power, the motivation, and the opportunity to set an example for every small city who expects law enforcement officers to perform animal control responsibilities.

To set such an example, the City needs to establish a clear animal behavior training program for all its officers. The City needs to provide its officers with the tools and information to fulfill the responsibilities placed on them. And lastly the City needs to hold officers accountable when they breach the public trust placed in them.

The Newfoundland Club of Seattle would like nothing more than to return to these chambers in the future and applaud the City of Des Moines for using this tragedy to spur these changes in policy, training, and accountability.

Thank you for your time, I am submitting the following documents to the clerk for the public record:
1) A petition with over 4,000 signatures calling for police accountability in last week's shooting
2) Copies of our policy recommendations for expected changes.

[Fishstiq]

Why is there still no talk of the families responsibility in all of this? I know they have experienced a huge loss, but why does that make them exempt? It may sound harsh, but if a parent left a firearm unsecured and someone was injured because of it, you can bet your @$$ they would be liable. Maybe not the best example, but you get the point. Being a responsible pet owner is much the same. Sure pets "escape" from time to time, and that's considered a mistake or an accident that is apparently excusable. Why would a pet owners mistake be excusable and never even mentioned and yet the cop gets drawn and quartered for their mistakes?

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I don't know a better way to ask this question.

[Mattleycrue76]

Why is there still no talk of the families responsibility in all of this? I know they have experienced a huge loss, but why does that make them exempt? It may sound harsh, but if a parent left a firearm unsecured and someone was injured because of it, you can bet your @$$ they would be liable. Maybe not the best example, but you get the point. Being a responsible pet owner is much the same. Sure pets "escape" from time to time, and that's considered a mistake or an accident that is apparently excusable. Why would a pet owners mistake be excusable and never even mentioned and yet the cop gets drawn and quartered for their mistakes?

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I don't know a better way to ask this question.

Lol, we've all seen the authority you excercise over Lilo. It's a good thing you've restricted yourself to owning purse dogs.

[Joshua Smith]

Maybe 'cause nobody got hurt except the poor dog. It's kind of a stretch to compare this to someone leaving a gun lying around, IMHO.

Why is there still no talk of the families responsibility in all of this? I know they have experienced a huge loss, but why does that make them exempt? It may sound harsh, but if a parent left a firearm unsecured and someone was injured because of it, you can bet your @$$ they would be liable. Maybe not the best example, but you get the point. Being a responsible pet owner is much the same. Sure pets "escape" from time to time, and that's considered a mistake or an accident that is apparently excusable. Why would a pet owners mistake be excusable and never even mentioned and yet the cop gets drawn and quartered for their mistakes?

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I don't know a better way to ask this question.

[Fishstiq]

Mattley, I know. Since this thread started though Lilo has been on a leash whenever outside the home, and that's how it's gonna stay. If she gets out, and a cop mistakes her for a crazy rabid squrill, that's on me.

Josh, is it? From a LEO perspective, isn't a dog this size capable of inflicting serious injury or death? Also, like I said in my post, maybe not the best example, but you understand what I'm saying (I hope). If not, i'm happy to clarify further.

[Joshua Smith]

Sure, a dog "that size" is capable of inflicting injury. Do you really think that was a reasonable conclusion for the officers to arrive at, after reading all this? I don't. A person "my size" can do some damage, too. But if I was hiding from the cops under a bush after being tased, they probably wouldn't be justified in shooting me. Not saying they wouldn't do so, depending on the circumstances, but at least they were reasonably sure the dog didn't have a gun.