Dog shooting in Des Moines

This forum is for all other types of chatter, including non-SCUBA stuff.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

FYI, follow-up coverage including the dash cams:
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailywee ... lice_j.php
http://www.highlinetimes.com/2011/01/01 ... g-shooting#

I have to say that the Des Moines police guild demanding that an elected official resign is really the pinnacle of gaul.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
Lonestar
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:55 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Lonestar »

I gave them the benefit of the doubt at the onset of all this. I was wrong. Although they did follow DM's policy, which absolutely is no excuse, good judgment was absent. Their guild is doing everything it can (far beyond calling for the Mayor's resignation) to protect and support them (I guess that's why folks pay union dues) and their gall would be laughable if it weren't so abominable.
Tim McClung

22nd Annual Scott Firefighter Stair Climb, support it: http://www.llswa.org/site/TR/Events/Big ... fr_id=1280
User avatar
Norris
NWDC Moderator
NWDC Moderator
Posts: 4695
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Norris »

Fire and charge the cops, I say...

Proactivliy devise a plan to grow the Animal Control staff. Maybe even talk to pet owners to establish a plan to fund this? Pet food/Supply tax? Otherwise we shall see more instances where the police are sent to do a job they are not trained for, and might be too calous or lazy to pursue solutions that dont require an assault rifle.

Pet owners, please take heed and know that your pet is securely locked on your property or in your house. An animal wieghing in at more than your average human would most likely be (mis)interpreted as a threat to society and could become a victim of senseless police laziness and lack of sense.

I still believe that the owners still own part of this responsibility, as this wouldn't even be a story had the dog been properly secured. However; I would like to think that there were many more rungs on the "ladder to lethal solutions"

My 2 psi
**Pinch it, don't stick your finger through. You're just pinching a bigger hole.
CAPTNJACK - 2012**
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Grateful Diver »

CaptnJack wrote:FYI, follow-up coverage including the dash cams:
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailywee ... lice_j.php
http://www.highlinetimes.com/2011/01/01 ... g-shooting#

I have to say that the Des Moines police guild demanding that an elected official resign is really the pinnacle of gaul.
Interesting comments in the second link ... dollars to donuts says that the one guy who's defending the shooting is either one of the LEO's involved (or a relative) or else someone in the guild.

Seems like the vast majority of the community is coming out in support of the mayor on this one ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

Grateful Diver wrote: Seems like the vast majority of the community is coming out in support of the mayor on this one ...
I don't live in Des Moines, but if I did I'd vote for Bob Scheckler. I think he's genuinely trying to look at this from all angles and improve the way their city delivers its services and the confidence of residents. I spoke with him today on the phone and told him this myself too.

BTW Des Moines has a mayor, a city council, and a city manager. Honestly I don't know exactly how that goverance structure works. I <think> the Mayor is an elected member of the City Council who represents the Council as a whole but the City Manager is an employee runs the place on a day to day basis.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
Pez7378
I've Got Gills
Posts: 3256
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:09 am

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Pez7378 »

Lot's of lessons in this story. Give your dog a Collar and Dog tags. Register your dog. Introduce your dog to your local Animal Control Officer. Make sure your dog doesn't/can't get out of your yard. When you're away from home, have someone watch your dog. Train your dog not to bark menacingly at the Police.

Those Officers tried a lot of different ways of identifying the Dog and it's owners. What if, the AC Officer could identify Rosie after being sent pictures? What if Rosie couldn't get out of the yard? What if Rosie had been registered with the city? What if someone was House/Dog sitting with Rosie when the Police came to investigate? What if Rosie hadn't been barking at the Police?

Looked to me like there could have been a different outcome. Based on the video and all the data, what other options did the police officers have?
User avatar
Lonestar
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:55 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Lonestar »

When there is a CM and a Mayor it is called a weak Mayor system. In such a system the Mayor is not a full time job and basically runs the council meetings. The CM runs the city on a day to day basis and offers input to the council and follows their direction.
Tim McClung

22nd Annual Scott Firefighter Stair Climb, support it: http://www.llswa.org/site/TR/Events/Big ... fr_id=1280
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

Pez7378 wrote: Looked to me like there could have been a different outcome. Based on the video and all the data, what other options did the police officers have?
I'm not going to throw down a laundry list of mistakes which were made, many on camera, others documented in the 171pg police report, so we can nit pick their importance or significance. Instead, to summarize, I am going to quote something that was written by an active K9 law enforcement officer from another part of the country, she's commenting on the Rosie report and dash cams.
In my experience and knowledge - over many years Rosie was not in the category to be killed no matter how long it would take to deal with this. Unless Rosie was physically attacking someone there would be no reason to kill her or any animal... for that matter. My police dog showed her teeth when someone got close to my vehicle or yard but it's a protection face. We don't kill bears or other wildlife and officials try to save them unless it is a dire situation which the Rosie event was not. If the officers had time to laugh and joke in front of a dash cam along with the other disturbing acts and comments this was not an exigent circumstance or deadly force option to me. There are those in LE who do not agree but I have to live with my own conscience before God.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Grateful Diver »

According to reports I've read, the dog was in an enclosed yard when she was killed. Why didn't they just close the damn gate to keep her contained until animal control could deal with it?

What disturbs me most about this whole thing is the reaction of the other police officers as the first shot was fired ...

"Nice"

That congratulatory word has chilling suggestions of men out on a hunting expedition.

Police officers are sometimes called on to make split-second decisions about using deadly force in a variety of situations. I can't think of very many where congratulations would be appropriate ... and none of the ones I can think of would involve a dog who hasn't hurt anybody. That whole mentality suggests to me the mindset of someone who would be likely to choose deadly force in a tense situation where other options might be more appropriate.

We've been reading about some of those situations lately ... and none of them have had good outcomes for the people involved. If I were a resident of Des Moines, I'd be very concerned about having these men driving around armed in my neighborhood ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

Monday on KIRO. First segment is on the fire in Redmond which killed 3 children and their dad. Coverage of Des Moines starts at 14:00 and runs until 23:55
http://www.mynorthwest.com/resources/au ... F2011%2F01
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
Fishstiq
Amphibian
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:58 am

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Fishstiq »

<sigh> here we go again... :boxer:

For one minute, stop eating the spoon-fed media reports and THINK. If the dog was no threat, why the need for multiple police officers (line staff and supervisors) to be called? Why the decision to use lethal force? Do you all honestly believe that the officers wanted to kill the dog? Does that make any logical sense at all? If it does, then you must think there are a bunch of trigger happy mentally unstable psychopaths with guns and badges sitting under the blinking lights in your rear view mirror.

I'm always amazed at peoples ability to focus on one tiny detail of a large incident. In this case, the word "nice". The decision to take life by using lethal force is not easy, but when it is made there has to be a unanimous commitment. When the decision was made in this case, right or wrong, every officer involved was then committed to a lethal resolution ensuring no harm to the public and a quick close to the event. Those two goals, however unpleasant, have to be accepted. If an officer then was able to make a clean, quick shot to the dog, ending in minimal suffering for the animal and no injuries to the public, then the team of officers involved have done their job well. So yeah, "nice" can actually be a very appropriate thing to say. As foreign as the job of killing anything might be to you, it's still someones job. To those people, complimenting a job done properly is the same as you complimenting properly filled out TPS reports from the guy in the next cubicle.

Just for perspective, the following video was taken by a news crew, as seen at the bottom of the screen. The newspapers reported it as a dog being tazered by police for barking and charging but not attacking because there were no injuries. No charges were filed against the dogs owners. What the papers reported and what you'll see happening are pretty clearly different.


http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/home

I'm not saying the police officers were correct in their actions. I am saying chill out on the witch hunt and the call to arms. Stop feeling so much and think a little.
Not just front page famous, but above the fold famous...

Waiting for your AIDS test results is no time to be thinking positive.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

Joe, your link does not work. I don't listen to KOMO talk, hearing his comments about the Redmond fire beforehand tho - the dog coverage is basically the same tone to me.

BTW a great dane was justifiably (to me) shot in Bremerton over the weekend. It attacked an officer attempting to arrest a DUI driver. The officer was attacked by the drunk driver, his GF, and somewhere in there the dog. The Taser was used on the drunk to no effect before the dog got into the fray. Dog ended up dead, the drunk and GF in jail, and the officer was treated and released from the hospital for his bite injuries. The judgement of that officer is not in the limelight or questioned and it shouldn't be except for a routine shooting review for discharge of the Taser and gun. But by all accounts so far he acted appropriately against the multiple imminent threats against him.

In my understanding lethal force is limited by most jurisdictions to situations of imminent harm. And the imminent harm is absent in Des Moines. No other City "euthanizes" companion animals with rifles because at its core its socially unacceptable. Its also a government "taking" of private property under Washington law which requires due process, again unless there's threat of imminent harm which was absent.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
Fishstiq
Amphibian
Posts: 827
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:58 am

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Fishstiq »

Sorry, I think that last link was to the mobile site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Itfr_V ... ata_player

King County has completed their review, and found the officers not at fault. They must have seen some circumstance that created an imminent threat...?
Not just front page famous, but above the fold famous...

Waiting for your AIDS test results is no time to be thinking positive.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

Fishstiq wrote:Sorry, I think that last link was to the mobile site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Itfr_V ... ata_player

King County has completed their review, and found the officers not at fault. They must have seen some circumstance that created an imminent threat...?
That's not what the King County PA said. They said that Des Moines PD did not commit a crime under RCW 16.52
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=16.52
because they were acting under the force of law. RCW 16.52 essentially "exempts" police and veterinarians from animal cruelty if they act in their official capacity. The PA made no determination of imminent threat. You can read the PAs review in its entirety here:
http://www.desmoinesmail.com/webpdf/Pol ... Invest.pdf

The shooting review by the City is still pending. That's one place is where decisions about the appropriateness of the force used are made. The other place (and on the takings issue) will probably be in court. I'm not privy to any information about that.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

FYI, Sorry I'm a bit delinquent...
First hearing for this is today at 9AM, Des Moines Municipal Court. 6Mb download and not reading for the fainthearted.
http://www.trunewfsrescue.com/110211_Wr ... _final.pdf

In ~30 words or less...
Citizen complaint of criminal charges against Graddon (shooter) and Wieland (Sergeant/supervisor)
Animal cruelty 2nd degree under both RCW and Des Moines Municipal codes
Unlawful killing/wounding of an animal under Des Moines code

The first 50 pages are the actual complaint and warning its quite graphic. The remainder is evidence. The videos are not embedded in the pdf, but can be access via the City's website. http://www.desmoinesmail.com/webpdf/Pol ... _rosie.htm

The City is not a defendant or intervenor.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

Ok that was fast. The (Des Moines) judge recused herself and the case has been transferred to a King County court. I will try to find out the hearing date (and trial if it gets to that).
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
spatman
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10881
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:06 am

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by spatman »

CaptnJack wrote:Ok that was fast. The (Des Moines) judge recused herself and the case has been transferred to a King County court. I will try to find out the hearing date (and trial if it gets to that).
was a reason given for the recusal?
Image
Geek
Pelagic
Posts: 945
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by Geek »

The officer's probably are in front of that judge a lot. Wouldn't look right if the judge was presiding over a case with them as the accused. SOP in small towns that may not have a lot of judges, Seattle has like 23423 of them so it's not such a big issue in bigger city's but small ones, the judge probably is a drinking buddy :)
If I'm killed by the questions like a cancer,
Then I'll be buried in the silence of the answer.


http://www.tacomacomputersolutions.com


Life isn't like a box of chocolate's, life is like a box of chocolate and horse bisket's and no matter which one you get you have to keep on chewing...
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

spatman wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:Ok that was fast. The (Des Moines) judge recused herself and the case has been transferred to a King County court. I will try to find out the hearing date (and trial if it gets to that).
was a reason given for the recusal?
She knows the officers, sees them presenting testimony often and her son is in little league with one of their sons. She felt her impartiality would be questioned and thus found another judge to accept the case. As Geek said, not unexpected in a small town.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

The petition bounced around alot between Des Moines, King County, Pierce County, back to King etc.

But, at long last the petition for citizen prosecution of officers Graddon and Weiland for 2nd degree animal cruelty in Rosie's shooting is before Snohomish County Court tomorrow, 10am start. 3000 Rockefeller Ave, Everett. Hopefully there will be an up or down decision to proceed shortly thereafter.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

2 weeks were granted by the court to address final filings. Most addressing a question of whether prosecutorial discretion is protected from court rules by the seperation of powers. Prosecutors being in the executive branch the court itself is not granted that function. Those filings have been submitted and a written decision from the court on whether to move forward with a privately prosecuted case is expected by 9/25/11. (I think that is the correct date).
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
mattwave
Amphibian
Posts: 850
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:46 am

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by mattwave »

"Scuba Like You Love It!"
Let's go diving
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

FYI
The criminal filings and counter filings were a mess and never resolved anything to either the Wright's or the City's satisfaction. Although the officers were never charged, that was potentially in part due to the fact that the court screwed around so much that the statute of limitations ran out and all of the criminal filings became moot.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by CaptnJack »

The civil suit was settled last month. I didn't mention it before since I wasn't sure the extent it was "public" vs sealed. In any case, its in the Seattle Times today. The one (modest) error in the article is that neither investigation found the officers "justified". They were found to have followed proceedure. The merits and validity of those proceedures were never reviewed.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/ ... cmpid=2628

Quite a sizable award, but I know Dierdre is still tramatized by the whole event and aftermath. Not sure money can ever make her whole again.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
John Rawlings
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5781
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:00 am

Re: Dog shooting in Des Moines

Post by John Rawlings »

The entire thing is a crying shame....I grow saddened every time I think about it.
“Don’t pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he’ll just kill you.”

Image

http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com
http://johnrawlings.smugmug.com/
Post Reply