Another week another gruesome find

[Dusty2]

Well back from yet another week in Port Townsend. Lots of nudies as well as the other critters and an unpleasant surprise.

During or Wed. dive I found a bag of remains like the one at cove 2 awhile back! Mid way through our dive I investigated a large plastic bag that was tied at the top with wire ties and found that it was also tagged with a metal cremation tag. No name of the deceased just the name of the crematorium and a serial number. I wonder if this is just calloused disposal of a loved one or is there a unethical crematory dumping in the sound??

[Sounder]

Well back from yet another week in Port Townsend. Lots of nudies as well as the other critters and an unpleasant surprise.

During or Wed. dive I found a bag of remains like the one at cove 2 awhile back! Mid way through our dive I investigated a large plastic bag that was tied at the top with wire ties and found that it was also tagged with a metal cremation tag. No name of the deceased just the name of the crematorium and a serial number. I wonder if this is just calloused disposal of a loved one or is there a unethical crematory dumping in the sound??

Where are they at? I'll "scatter" them too just like I did with the Cove 2 remains.

[Agent 47]

Well back from yet another week in Port Townsend. Lots of nudies as well as the other critters and an unpleasant surprise.

During or Wed. dive I found a bag of remains like the one at cove 2 awhile back! Mid way through our dive I investigated a large plastic bag that was tied at the top with wire ties and found that it was also tagged with a metal cremation tag. No name of the deceased just the name of the crematorium and a serial number. I wonder if this is just calloused disposal of a loved one or is there a unethical crematory dumping in the sound??

Did you talk to the police at all about this one or the one at cove two? incase there is anything nefarious afoot.

[Dusty2]

Did you talk to the police at all about this one or the one at cove two? incase there is anything nefarious afoot.

Nope

Where are they at? I'll "scatter" them too just like I did with the Cove 2 remains.

Hmmmm Approximatly where the Pink mark is. They are about half way up the rocks from the bottom.

[deep diver]

I'm thinking that the police need to be notified... If it was a loved one, then they would sprinkle or make some kind of attempt of a memorial. I'm thinking it's someone disposing of them and keeping the $$

[Dusty2]

I'm thinking that the police need to be notified... If it was a loved one, then they would sprinkle or make some kind of attempt of a memorial. I'm thinking it's someone disposing of them and keeping the $$

Go for it. I'm not up there so I can't recover them for them. Maybe you or Mark or Dale?? I would hate to stir up a big stink only to find the current had washed them away.

[Sealman]

Hey Dusty2 besides the gruesome find how was the VIS there? Was you able to get some pics?
What kind of nudi-bracks were they? I have been playing with harbor seals, Got some good pics.
Safe Diving-----Sealman.

[Waynne Fowler]

I'm with the others. The police should be made aware.
Does anyone know if they are all from the same crematorium?

Sure seems odd that all the sudden there's like for or five of these things showing up.

Was out on Bandito's Sampan and while at point defience a dive the othe boat (The Ocean Quest) found a femer
just below the surface not far from where they found the remains on the beach like a week or two ago.

All the dead people under water lately is starting to creep me out.

-theme from the shining plays here-

[Waynne Fowler]

opp's double posted that.. :(

[Sounder]

Eh, finding bodies in the water would not be the first clue the police would get regarding someone doing something with poor intentions. I think it's a coincidence. People especially wouldn't TAG IT with any identifying marks/tags/codes/whatever if something was up. I think the weather is improving and people are hurling their loved ones into Davy Jones' Locker.

If I was going to ditch something in the Sound, where I didn't want it found, there are MUCH better ways of doing it than tossing it into the water near a dive site, that would ensure it was never found, requiring little if any effort.

I'll toss this out there (pun intended) - if you come across human remains in a plastic sack or urn or whatever, and aren't creeped-out by the thought of it, please scatter the remains where you find them and bring the plastic bag back to the parking lot or boat to be discarded.

Yes, Puget Sound is already full of garbage, and yes, some of that garbage makes great habitat for critters... but a plastic bag of remains doesn't really strike me as habitat-forming trash, and it's not something people should have to look at when they're diving. In fact, I often stuff certain types of garbage into my pockets when I find it and discard it when I return to the cars, and IMO, I think this is a good practice for people to adopt.

Plus - human remains ARE kind of unique in how they "fall" when you're scattering them underwater. It's not like silt, mud, sand, etc... it's quite different. Give it a try next time you roll-up on grandma-in-a-bag.

[Dusty2]

Hey Dusty2 besides the gruesome find how was the VIS there? Was you able to get some pics?
What kind of nudi-bracks were they? I have been playing with harbor seals, Got some good pics.
Safe Diving-----Sealman.

Check out http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15207

[PeninsulaDiver]

I'll toss this out there (pun intended) - if you come across human remains in a plastic sack or urn or whatever, and aren't creeped-out by the thought of it, please scatter the remains where you find them and bring the plastic bag back to the parking lot or boat to be discarded.

I respectfully disagree with the statement above. If you are not concerned then leave it "as is" and enjoy the rest of your dive and forget about it.

If you are concerned about it, here are the options as I see them.

1. Leave "it" alone. Note the location and report it to the authorities.
2. Note the location, recover the "entire contents" and turn them into the authorities.

I believe if you decide to open the contents and disseminate them then return the container to the surface and dispose of it, that could quite possibly be "destruction of evidence" which in itself is a crime.

I am not a law enforcement office, these are just my thoughts.

In this situation, as of this evening, the authorities have been notified. Lets let them decide how to handle.

-Mark

[Dusty2]

Thanks Mark

[Sounder]

As someone who does have a bit of background in law enforcement, I still disagree. The authorities are likely not going to pay any mind to the report and human cremains found underwater are not an indication of a crime, other than littering on DNR land. But, I'm ok with disagreeing - it's not personal.

[kdupreez]

Great! another day another deceased remains found.. this is getting ridiculous!

one of these days there will be more dead people in puget sound than fish.. I agree, I its littering! scatter the remains or go with a publicly and morally acceptable place of rest..

[PeninsulaDiver]

As someone who does have a bit of background in law enforcement, I still disagree. The authorities are likely not going to pay any mind to the report and human cremains found underwater are not an indication of a crime, other than littering on DNR land. But, I'm ok with disagreeing - it's not personal.

Fair enough Doug. We agree to disagree.

Crime or no crime local LE may still be interested if for no other reason to thwart the trend that has been occurring. How they go about doing this is their business and they should be the ones to decide whether to proceed or not.

For those on the fence about what to do, I submit this.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=68.50.130
RCW 68.50.130 makes it a misdemeanor for Unlawful disposal of remains.

RCW 68.50.140 makes it illegal to disturb them.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=68.50.140

Someone would have to decide "internment" whether it's the person disposing of the remains or LE but not us as recreational divers.

As I stated in a previous post, if you are concerned, report the findings to the local authorities and let them handle from there.

I will end with this; I get the point about DNR land, someone else's trash, and all that jazz but on a personal side disturbing human remains seems a little disrespectful to me.

-Mark

[CaptnJack]

I don't think a plastic bag of ashes chucked into the ocean at a park or pier quite meets the legislative intent of a "place of internment". Is America that stupid to think the bag will decompose in <500yrs?

IIRC this is bag #3 correct? 2 at Alki and now 1 in Port Townsend? Hardly a massive trend in burial at sea.

[Waynne Fowler]

Eh, finding bodies in the water would not be the first clue the police would get regarding someone doing something with poor intentions. I think it's a coincidence. People especially wouldn't TAG IT with any identifying marks/tags/codes/whatever if something was up. I think the weather is improving and people are hurling their loved ones into Davy Jones' Locker.

If I was going to ditch something in the Sound, where I didn't want it found, there are MUCH better ways of doing it than tossing it into the water near a dive site, that would ensure it was never found, requiring little if any effort.

That does make sense Sounder. In retrospect, I think you're probably right that nothing nefarious is going on. I would however still be alerting LE about the finds. It's most likely nothing but there may be things that you, I and the general public are unaware that this information may be pertinent to.

grandma-in-a-bag.

It took me 2 hours to clean the coffee off my keyboard and my sinuses did not enjoy the caffeine flush.

[ktb]

I will end with this; I get the point about DNR land, someone else's trash, and all that jazz but on a personal side disturbing human remains seems a little disrespectful to me.

I think it's also disrespectful to throw plastic bags of grandma into the ocean where wildlife could mistake it for a meal, eat it, and die because they couldn't digest it. Obviously that's a worst-case scenario, but I think a combination of emptying the contents and bringing the bag (if it's tagged or has some sort of markings) topside for the authorities is a good, safe, combination of actions IMHO.

But yeah . . . this trend is bugging the hell out of me. Maybe someone needs to talk to the local crematoriums about using biodegradable bags if folks are going to keep throwing their loved ones--bag and all--overboard.

[pogiguy05]

Well one could if they have a camera take a pic of the identifying marks (which could later be deleted out of respect) in order to track down the where they came from. It might be just a simple thing and when they are made aware of it, change how they do it.

[kdupreez]

Woa!! Dana found a human humerus (arm) bone at North Wall at 50ft this weekend!!!

[Dusty2]

Looks like a thigh bone to me. If it is indeed human that could be crime related and should be reported.

And what be ye doin with pirate booty on your dash!

[citycatred]

Its a humerus, there are significant differences between the proximal ends of the femur and humerus. One of those differences is the greater trochanter which forms a "neck" for the head of the femur. Plus in the picture you can see a very olecranon fossa which connects to the capitulum which would be easier to see if there was a photo of a different angle. Another distinguishing fact would be the direction of the nutrient foramen, but we would need a close up picture for that. I'll go back to my corner and shut up now.....

[Geek]

Its a humerus, there are significant differences between the proximal ends of the femur and humerus. One of those differences is the greater trochanter which forms a "neck" for the head of the femur. Plus in the picture you can see a very olecranon fossa which connects to the capitulum which would be easier to see if there was a photo of a different angle. Another distinguishing fact would be the direction of the nutrient foramen, but we would need a close up picture for that. I'll go back to my corner and shut up now.....

Geez, you give a girl an education and she post's goobly gook all over the intertubes, that is WAY to many words I have to google to understand what you just said

[citycatred]

Its a humerus, there are significant differences between the proximal ends of the femur and humerus. One of those differences is the greater trochanter which forms a "neck" for the head of the femur. Plus in the picture you can see a very olecranon fossa which connects to the capitulum which would be easier to see if there was a photo of a different angle. Another distinguishing fact would be the direction of the nutrient foramen, but we would need a close up picture for that. I'll go back to my corner and shut up now.....

Geez, you give a girl an education and she post's goobly gook all over the intertubes, that is WAY to many words I have to google to understand what you just said

Would you like to borrow my Human osteology book? I don't need it anymore, I actually remember what I was taught in my forensic anthropology class :p