Port Townsed still holds treasure!

[Dusty2]

While I critter hunt my dive buddy looks for old bottles and yes still finds them. Here is a recent treasure pulled from the depths.
It is a mid 1800's gin bottle from AvanHoboken & co. Rotterdam. It is a large size about 4 1/2" square at the top and about 12" tall. It is an unusual design with it's short neck and hand applied lip and recessed bottom. Other than the normal sandblasting it is perfect.

[Joshua Smith]

That is an extremely cool bottle. Very nice find.

[kdupreez]

woah, thats a very cool find!

[selkie]

Yes nice. Now what does the bottle tell us about where it was found, the other artifacts around it and who deposited it? Oh that's right we will never know because it has been removed and disassociated from the context in which it was deposited. Thank you for taking our collective history home.

[Norris]

Yes nice. Now what does the bottle tell us about where it was found, the other artifacts around it and who deposited it? Oh that's right we will never know because it has been removed and disassociated from the context in which it was deposited. Thank you for taking our collective history home.

[Tom Nic]

Yes nice. Now what does the bottle tell us about where it was found, the other artifacts around it and who deposited it? Oh that's right we will never know because it has been removed and disassociated from the context in which it was deposited. Thank you for taking our collective history home.

Huh?

It's a bottle, not a shipwreck that is being looted.

He should have laid out a grid, called the archaeological society, and commenced vacuuming sand?

I'm all about archaeology, preserving sites, etc. but this doesn't seem to be an applicable case.

I think your post is a bit of an overreaction.

[selkie]

Yes nice. Now what does the bottle tell us about where it was found, the other artifacts around it and who deposited it? Oh that's right we will never know because it has been removed and disassociated from the context in which it was deposited. Thank you for taking our collective history home.

Huh?

It's a bottle, not a shipwreck that is being looted.

He should have laid out a grid, called the archaeological society, and commenced vacuuming sand?

I'm all about archaeology, preserving sites, etc. but this doesn't seem to be an applicable case.

I think your post is a bit of an overreaction.

My apologies Tom I did not mean to over react. However a bottle can be much more that a bottle. of course now it is just a bottle.

[Grateful Diver]

I can tell you all you need to know about that bottle ...

About 150 years ago, some fur trapper dude got drunk and tossed the empty bottle over the side of his canoe. It's been laying there ever since.

The end ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Tom Nic]

:

Yes nice. Now what does the bottle tell us about where it was found, the other artifacts around it and who deposited it? Oh that's right we will never know because it has been removed and disassociated from the context in which it was deposited. Thank you for taking our collective history home.

Huh?

It's a bottle, not a shipwreck that is being looted.

He should have laid out a grid, called the archaeological society, and commenced vacuuming sand?

I'm all about archaeology, preserving sites, etc. but this doesn't seem to be an applicable case.

I think your post is a bit of an overreaction.

My apologies Tom I did not mean to over react. However a bottle can be much more that a bottle. of course now it is just a bottle.

No apology necessary, your post was expressed appropriately - it wasn't out of line from my standpoint as a mod. I just don't get the concern with picking up a bottle in a current swept area known for bottles - this is not an actual or potential archaeological site.

This isn't picking artifacts off a known wreck or site.

[Tom Nic]

If you have a story to tell or other concerns, please tell the story - it is welcome. This just doesn't seem to be a looting situation.

[Dusty2]

Unfortunately in those days our waters especially near towns were considered prime dumping sites, not that some people don't still feel the same today. There are hundreds of thousands of these pieces of our past on the bottom of every body of water in the known world. They were trash then and they still are. There is no historical significance in these castaways. Bottles many times this old are commonly found on the east coast every day. Just look on ebay. As stated if they were part of a wreck site or historical site that might be different but I hardly consider the bottom of Townsend bay a site of historical significance.

[Grateful Diver]

Maybe we should be calling the Historical Society every time someone sees something interesting on the bottom. Then they can close the site to diving until they send an archeological team out to investigate ... possibly find an old bone and declare it a First Nations gravesite and make the site permanently off-limits.

First off ... how would you even know what you've found until you bring it up, clean it, and identify it? Just because a bottle looks interesting doesn't mean it has any historical value.

I'm just not seeing the reason for an objection here ... it ain't like they looted a wreck or grave or something.

What's next ... a "Save the Crabs" campaign?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[60south]

Methinks it was likely donated to Townsend Bay by a drunken sailor on one of these ships...



We have yet to find a shipwreck from that era in Townsend Bay -- but we'll keep looking. Come with us!

Until then, we love finding these kind of things and sharing them with everyone. It enriches our knowledge and appreciation of the local history, as well as making the diving fun.

[Dusty2]

What's next ... a "Save the Crabs" campaign?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Shhhh! lets not give anyone ideas.

[H20doctor]

I love bottle hunting.. !! Its the shizzle.. Bassman got me hooked up in alaska.. Shaaaweet find there

[Linedog]

I'm just sad there's no Gin left. :queenliz:

[Dusty2]

If there was it wouldn't have been on the bottom.

[gutholmj]

I love bottle hunting.. !! Its the shizzle.. Bassman got me hooked up in alaska.. Shaaaweet find there

You need to stop cavorting with that Bassman character. He's been know to disturb other objects of historic significance.

[citycatred]

Yes nice. Now what does the bottle tell us about where it was found, the other artifacts around it and who deposited it? Oh that's right we will never know because it has been removed and disassociated from the context in which it was deposited. Thank you for taking our collective history home.

Seriously....it's a bottle. People in the past thought it was trash (as we can see by the fact it was tossed into the water) and most people today think it's trash. Your trained as Historical Archaeologist from what your profile says, you of all people should know that its not a shipwreck and it's obviously not of "historical significance" seeing that there have been no archaeological dives at this site the last time I looked. The only thing this bottle proves is that this spot was treated as a dumping ground and people in the past drank gin.

[Geek]

No, it also proves that someone will object to anything.... No matter what it is.. I found an arrow head when I was a kid.. still have it if you want, I'll let you know what nation I robbed it from

[Joshua Smith]

I can tell you all you need to know about that bottle ...

About 150 years ago, some fur trapper dude got drunk and tossed the empty bottle over the side of his canoe. It's been laying there ever since.

The end ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I was picturing some bored sailor, stuck on watch while his buddies painted Port Townsend various colors with their body fluids. But either version works for me.

The insinuation that removing this bottle from the bottom is harmful in some way is ridiculous in the extreme, IMO. What could be gleaned from noting that it was near a dead crab, a Budweiser can, and an old car battery is beyond me. Of course, I never finished college.

[Dusty2]

I can tell you all you need to know about that bottle ...

About 150 years ago, some fur trapper dude got drunk and tossed the empty bottle over the side of his canoe. It's been laying there ever since.

The end ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I was picturing some bored sailor, stuck on watch while his buddies painted Port Townsend various colors with their body fluids. But either version works for me.

The insinuation that removing this bottle from the bottom is ridiculous in the extreme, IMO. What could be gleaned from noting that it was near a dead crab, a Budweiser can, and an old car battery is beyond me. Of course, I never finished college.

I think that is much closer to the truth Josh. "What will we do with the drunken sailor?" HAR!

[citycatred]

I can tell you all you need to know about that bottle ...

About 150 years ago, some fur trapper dude got drunk and tossed the empty bottle over the side of his canoe. It's been laying there ever since.

The end ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I was picturing some bored sailor, stuck on watch while his buddies painted Port Townsend various colors with their body fluids. But either version works for me.

The insinuation that removing this bottle from the bottom is ridiculous in the extreme, IMO. What could be gleaned from noting that it was near a dead crab, a Budweiser can, and an old car battery is beyond me. Of course, I never finished college.

I think that is much closer to the truth Josh. "What will we do with the drunken sailor?" HAR!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UfEGFHs3UQ[/youtube]

[archaeofish]

As a practicing archaeologist with an interest in the maritime history of Townsend Bay and other coastal areas along Puget Sound I have been following this thread and I can honestly say that I've had serious reservations about posting a response. There are very few professional archaeologists or government officials in Washington State who are paying any attention to these resources, let alone treating them with the respect or consideration before proceeding with projects that have the potential to irreparably harm them, so I appreciate the interest that I'm seeing from people who have posted so far. There are two things that I would like add to this discussion:

1) While bottle scatters were considered trash when they were created, they can yield some very important information about associated features such as piers or wharves, or at a larger scale about a historical landscape (such as a harbor) and they are a finite resource - they're not making any more of them so when they're gone, they are gone.

2) When I find a diagnostic artifact, such as an intact bottle with a maker's mark in a submerged context, I prefer to photograph the features, record it's position and leave it where I found it. However, Bob makes a good point, sometimes you cannot tell how old something is without taking it to the surface, or the conditions do not permit full recording of an object. In that case, it is common practice to record enough information to be able to return the object to where it was located.

In general though I think Bob's fears are a little overblown; I do not agree that an archaeologist's involvement will mean banning diving at a site where significant resources are found and that this fear should be used as a justification for divers not sharing information about what they find and where they found it. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the only submerged historical sites in Washington State that were accessible to divers that have been closed were done so in the interests of port security and not because divers were collecting bottles or other artifacts. I've consulted on several shoreline projects in Puget Sound where there were issues with submerged historical resources and often our best sources of firsthand information are the local divers. In the future, there will undoubtedly be projects along the Townsend Bay shoreline that will have the potential to impact submerged historical resources and the information that you obtain during your dives can be a significant contribution to preserving local maritime history. If you collect bottles or other historical objects, please keep a record of where you found them and ensure that this information is not lost when you pass on. In addition, I've read too many stories about divers finding historical objects that have been preserved at depth for tens or hundreds of years and bringing them to the surface only to watch them decompose or be destroyed through careless handling/shipping, so please take care of what you find. Your grandchildren and future generations may thank you for it.

If anyone would like to discuss this in person at a dive or over a beer, feel free to PM me. Thank you.

Ross

[Tom Nic]

Thanks for adding to the discussion.