What a disappointment!

[Samson]

Man!! I went into my local dive shop today (which will remain nameless) to look at purchasing some stuff and to check up on our upcoming lesson schedule. I inquired about the possibility of using our own gear we have aquired over the past few weeks rather than the instructors gear during our lessons as we would like to get used to what we will be using all the time. I explained that I have been buying stuff online and having it delivered piece by piece to my family to keep their enthusiasm up..... It has been a great three weeks looking forward to getting my family certified.... But, You would have thought I just spit in this dudes face...... He went off on how big of a mistake I had made and how I had "screwed up big time" by purchasing used gear and new stuff online instead of buying from him. I tried to explain that I could not afford new equipment for three people and was buying used items out of necessity and may upgrade later. He asked what I paid for my stuff and was then all but called a liar after telling him the prices of some of the deals I had found. I understand it is his business to sell equipment, but geeeeeezzzeee........ I have completly outfitted myself, my wife and my child with everything including drysuits and tanks and computers for less than 1000.00 apiece. Only a couple of the items are used,.. the rest is new!!!!! What would it have cost me to buy new stuff at a local shop??? 5-8K apiece??? Who could afford that???

Is this general scuba shop owners attitudes?? Is there that big of a click around here for guys who use older used equipment vs. new stuff??? I intended on having all my stuff certified and inspected by this shop and dealing with him on all my upcoming scuba related purchases, fills, etc, etc. etc..... Now I find myself wishing I had found a different shop to take my lessons from. If I had not prepaid I would be tempted to do just that....Am I going to run into this at every shop I go to?? When I get into something.. I get in ALL the way.... I spend tons of money enjoying my passions. This guy just lost a ton of business..... What a huge dissappointment....... talk about bursting my bubble......

Can anybody recomend a good "new & used equip" friendly shop near Snohomish????

Samson-

P.S. Dont ask what shop this was...I will not provide that in anyway.... It is not my intention to run anyone down here, or hurt anyones business. But I do need to find a shop that appreciates my business and I can be comfortable going to.....

[cardiver]

Unfortunately you will find that narrow minded attitude from 90% of the shops out there. Most shop owners are still wearing blinders and refusing to move into the 21st century where on line retailers are the rule...NOT the exception.
I live in south King Co. so I don't know of any shops up north. I do know that UWS has always given me a fair deal when I give them a price from Scubatoys or Leisure Pro.

[Joshua Smith]

That sounds like a bummer of an experience, Samson. Unfortunately, brick-and-mortar dive shops operate on a pretty thin margin these days, and, yeah, the bulk of their profit comes from selling new gear to new divers. Things like service and repair, air fills, and the like don't bring in very much money- air fills probably cost more to provide than the shop charges, in most cases. I can't blame the guy for being upset, but in your situation (outfitting 3 people with all the basics), I would have done the same thing in your shoes. The odds that all 3 of you are going to become avid divers are pretty slim, to be honest. I tell everyone to hold off on buying gear until they're SURE they want to keep diving because a whole lot of people get certified, do a few dives, and just lose interest. I hope you DO love it and dive all the time, but it's just not for everyone.

I wasn't there, but from your description, it sounds like the proprietor could have handled the situation a little more gracefully- and maybe asked you to give him a chance to make a deal with you on future purchases, or something like that.

All that said- I do try and support the brick-and-mortar shops as much as possible; those of us without compressor systems and the wherewithal to repair and service our own gear really need shops, and I like to look at, and hold the stuff I wanna buy, as opposed to sending "delewarejoe8733096" money through paypal- as well as get a warranty, especially on big ticket stuff. And if it's a liesurepro or scubatoys type item- I try and give my LDS a crack at matching the price.

[Samson]

There is one positive that came out of it... My son was not with me... Could you imagine where his confidence level would have gone about the gear he has been wearing around the house for three weeks would have went?? Ill tell you... right in the toilet!!!! Thank god he was not there to hear this guy tell him his equip was crap! Ya gotta remember also,.. We DID spend over 2,000 bucks on lessens and fins, masks, snorkels, gloves,...etc at this shop!!!

Sorry, im still fuming..... ill shut up now....


Samson-

[60south]

Hi Samson,

You're mixed up in the same dilemma that most of us go through eventually: whether to buy gear from the local dive shop (LDS) or get it cheaper elsewhere. You've found out the hard way how feathers can get ruffled.

It's a tough problem for many of us. Diving is expensive, no doubt about it. To strike a balance, a lot of us financially-challenged divers end up supporting our LDS as we can, but also quietly buy stuff off the web. It's not an ideal solution, and I tend to agree with cardiver that the LDSs should join the 21st century -- but then I am not a shop owner, so I don't know how practical that would be.

FWIW, you have our understanding and support. Fume away! And know that you've joined the ranks of us who still struggle with it -- but enjoy diving anyway.

glenn

[Dusty2]

I ran into this attitude early on and it gave me the same feeling it did you. It is not a fun thing but I have learned that it is best to just keep mum about purchases made elsewhere. Don't brag about that new reg or whatever around the shop. Remember it is not polite to rub their nose in it. You may not feel that way but he is looking at it from another view point and it is painful to him to learn he has lost money on you. You may have spent allot of money on lessons but I can tell you from experience very little of that stayed with the shop. By the time they pay the instructor, provide you with rental gear and air and pay NAUI or Padi their fees and insurance there is precious little left over.

Shops run on a very small margin and only the chain shops can get gear cheap enough to compete with online shops. It's a sad fact that manufactures sell to shops on a ladder system. The more you buy the bigger the discount. It isn't fair to the small local shops but it is a fact of life. They just can't compete with the bulk sellers. And to add insult to injury allot of the online stuff comes from unauthorized vendors who purchase their stuff through grey market channels overseas that sell to bulk vendors at prices that even the large chain ops can't get from the mfg.

I am every bit as guilty as the next guy on this as allot of my gear was purchased the same way. Just buy some gear from the local guys once in awhile even if it costs a little more and keep quite about the other stuff and life will be allot simpler. Remember you depend on them to supply air and services and they depend on you to stay open.

[Samson]

I hear what your saying Dusty, but that was not how it went down... I simply asked if I could use my own stuff instead of what the school was going to supply us to train with... The guy asked where I had gotten my stuff like I had stolen it or something..... It was only then that I explained my purchases, and was informed what a fool I was and that I had bought crap.....
I did spend quite a bit at his shop, and even spent some more there today....

As a small business owner myself, I understand his plight....however, in todays economy... SERVICE sells... it makes people want to come back and ask your advice..purchase from you, etc....you want people to like you......
Dont insult your customers, no matter how stupid they may appear....LOL...

I dunno.... We are supposed to start our instruction on Monday... My whole point of going to the shop today was to try and find out some info on when, what, where,.. etc. our class was going to be held..... I was told that the instructor would contact me,..... again.....Here it is .... 530pm sat night..... no contact... (remember, we signed up three weeks ago....) Two messages to the instructor and another to the dive shop..... still no contact....

I think I just chose the wrong LDS.......

Samson-

[Tom Nic]

Tough experience. I'm sure it's hard for the LDS employee or owner to listen to tales of money from one of "their" students going elsewhere. They are people too... That being said, there is really no excuse to "ream" a customer that is spending good money in their shop no matter how disappointed you are. (If you've ever worked in sales you know the feeling of considering something "sold" in your head, mentally spending your portion, etc, then huge let down when it doesn't happen - all to say you don't count your chickens until they are hatched!) If you can't control your emotions at some level you will pure and simple be chasing off customers.

If your instructor is competent you should still get good classes, then can make the decision of a shope to patronize after you shop around. I beleive that DEMA is going on, which may be why you haven't received a call yet as well.

Good luck...

[Nwbrewer]

It's unfortunate that you had that experience. I think I'd be looking at a new shop if I was you. Try and get your money back. The odds of you guys having a positive experience in this class have now decreased dramatically.

You're not contractually obligated to spend your money anywhere. The advice you've gotten so far is good, shops operate on a fairly thin margin. Where the good shops make up for the extra $$ they charge is on SERVICE. A smart shop would have simply tried to get you to buy gear from them from now on. Instead of loosing some business, my guess would be he's now lost all your business.

I've bought used gear, and I've bought new gear. When at all possible, (on new gear) I give the LDS the opportunity to get close to what the online price is, many times they can. For the most part when I consider waiting for stuff, paying for shipping, having to deal with someone 1000 miles away if something goes wrong, it's worth it to just buy it locally. Especially when you find a shop that treats you like a customer and not an annoyance.

The only time I think shop owners have a legitimate beef, is when people come in, try on stuff to make sure they have a proper fit, then turn around and buy from an online shop. I kinda think that's crap.

Don't let anybody tell you that what you bought is crap just because it's used. As long as it's quality stuff, and was even remotely well taken care of and serviced, it's absolutely fine. (Do make sure and get the regs serviced.)

I will however second Josh's advice that it may not have been the best plan to buy a bunch of gear before the class. There's difference in gear, configuration, etc. that you may not have had the breadth of knowledge to consider. If at all possible I think people should try and dive a few different types of gear BEFORE buying stuff for themselves. This stuff is expensive, and there's lots of people here (me included unfortunately) that bought gear early on that now sits in closets. And that's IF all three of you keep diving. To quote Josh, it takes a special kind of idiot to dive here. It's not for everyone.

Hope everything works out. Beyond the tirade, do you get to use your gear or not?

Jake

[Samson]

Thank you all for your advice... I have heard and understood all you have said... I am going to go through with the training as scheduled.... provided I am eventually contacted about where, when...etc..... .. At this point, trying to explain to my wife and child why we are suddenly putting off our lessons and joining another dive shops classes is not something I really want to get into... So, with the help of Jose'.... (for you non drinkers.. thats a synanym for tequilia) Im just going to go with this.......

Being in sales myself... I understand what it means to "have a bad day"......

Thanks for letting me vent.... I hope that monday eve comes and I will begin my reports on my wife and childs first SCUBA experience with exhilaration and glee..... Otherwise,... there may be an anonymous guy floating in a pool somewhere and a scuba shop up for sale.......(that is a joke, for those of you who I may offend.)

Until then......

Samson-

[dwashbur]

Samson:
I'm going to disagree with one thing that was said, and that is the comment that the odds are good not all of you will become avid divers. We were told the same thing, and all three of us greatly prefer being underwater to being on land. My daughter wound up changing her college major because of diving. If you have a good experience in the course, you'll love it and you'll stay with it, especially since you're here in an area where there is so much good diving so close by. Don't listen to nay-sayers; jump in with all six feet

[Samson]

Thanks Dave!!

My family and I moved here to dive!...We left Idaho to come to the sound... I have little fear, other than the cold,. which is why I have pre purchased dry suits for all of us,.. that my wife and child will join me weekly for our diving adventures. I look forward to meeting you all and becoming one of the local dive obsessed individuals I have read so much about here....


Samson-

[BASSMAN]

I have bought used gear from craigslist and bought my tanks from the internet. As far as my regulator and computer?
I did the research on the net and decided what I wanted and then took the prices I got off the net and the diveshop came close to matching most of my prices. :occasion5:
The tanks were priced so low, he said he could not get them at the price I was getting them. No hard feelings and I was willing to buy from the LDS if the price was within at least a $100.00.
I have bought most of my accessories from the same shop that gives me air for nearly three years now. I have felt bad telling the shop manager when I've bought from another shop, while having casual conversation. He (the shop manager) says nothing, but I see the look on his face and then I think "Why did I just tell him that?"
If I had thesort of reaction from the Dive Shop that you did, I would have been disapointed too.
Hope to be diving with you and your family soon Samson.



Keith

[Scubak]

I would request a refund for any money spent on classes not started yet.
Then...I would run away and get an independant instructor or another shop.
Kirsten
PM me for more info if you like

[Maverick]

I would demand my money back for the classes, run like the wind and never turn back. consider that a shop you dont go to anymore. I would tell him off, After you get a refund, then i would find a new shop or iinstructor. I know many if you would llike on i can set you up with someone that will treat you like a king and get you son so jacked up to dive that you can't keep enough fuel in the car to get to the dive sites. this guy is an ass hole and sholuld not have your money or families time in lessons, i would have gotten in his face and said " how can you talk to a customer like that, then Punched him in the Stomach and laughed. Seriously you need to think twice about having a guy like that teach your family to dive. What is wrong with people, business owners. I would never go there for anything but to get your money back my friend. PM me if you would like to meet a great instructor, AND GROUP OF DIVERS.
BJ

[dwashbur]

Thanks Dave!!

My family and I moved here to dive!...We left Idaho to come to the sound... I have little fear, other than the cold,. which is why I have pre purchased dry suits for all of us,.. that my wife and child will join me weekly for our diving adventures. I look forward to meeting you all and becoming one of the local dive obsessed individuals I have read so much about here....


Samson-

Where in Idaho? We travel a lot and Puget Sound is one of our major come-back-to spots, but our home base is in Boise. Not many octos in Bob Rice Pond But we're considering relocating somewhere here.

I echo what several have said: get your money back for the classes and take your business elsewhere.

[Grateful Diver]

Sorry to hear about your experience. Unfortunately, it happens commonly in our business. It's one of the reasons I decided, when I became an instructor, not to affiliate with a dive shop and to teach as an independent.

I can understand the LDS owner's frustration ... classes are typically sold at very little profit, and sometimes even as a loss leader, in order for the LDS staff to get customers in the door ... then they try to make their profit on gear sales. It's a business model that's under a lot of strain, in part due to the changing dynamics of internet sales, and in large part because of the way the small business dive shop gets jacked around by the dive equipment manufacturers. I can understand that they get upset when their students buy gear online, or somewhere else.

However, in a business relationship, there is NEVER an excuse for rude, condescending attitude on the part of a dive shop employee ... whether it's the owner or a hired staff. For most folks, that's an invitation to take your money somewhere else.

I hope everything works out for you and your family. Diving's supposed to be fun ... which is tough to do when you've got a strained relationship with the person who's supposed to be teaching you how to do it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Norris]

Yes this is something that I learned only weeks ago. "Don't share your great online purchase deals with shops." I will honestly say that my dive budget is not anywhere close to (what it seems) to many of you all. Even my mask, snorkle, fins, hood and gloves were a little scoffed at as, wow they didnt sell you quality stuff for NW diving....um...7mm items and a great mask snorkle, seemed to be working pretty well.
I do understand where an LDS would have that attitude, but to embarrass you like that was completely out of line. Considering what you are already spending with the certs, and the other items you buy there this person should be grateful. I would just consider this as "lesson learned" and I'm certain that he was really hoping to cash in on all the gear you would need to outfit your family. It's just to blatantly show it to you is the part that baffles me.
I like some of the ideas that I have heard and when I buy new gear I think that I will take prices in to the shop that I use and see if they can come close, shewt 50-70 bucks would be close enough. It's not that often that I walk into a "crowded" shop unless there is a class there, so I assume that the margin would be minimal.
I own a wetsuit, mask, fins, gloves, hood, and snorkle (sigh) LONG WAYS TO GO.

[Bric Martin]

Just know that with the economy local dive shops are hurting. Some are struggling to keep the doors open. Do your best to be loyal to a local dive shop and try to give them the business that you can.

We all know we can buy it cheaper on the internet. The double edge is that if we don't support our local shops they won't survive.

Buying from somewhere else and then telling your local shop is going to cause hard feelings. Keep it under your hat!

[John Rawlings]

My two cents:

I can see both sides of this issue.

Shops have very good reasons, not all of them monetary, for wanting new divers in similar and familiar equipment that functions as expected during training dives. The instructor in this case is now going to have to deal with not only a batch of new divers that don't know anything about their equipment (the normal situation for OW classes), he or she is ALSO now going to have to deal with a bunch of used gear that is "basically" unfamiliar to him/her as well. Funny thing about used gear - sometimes when you finally get it out on an actual dive it doesn't work the way that it is supposed to. That potential is now there. If I were an instructor with a class of brand new divers I would prefer them to be in the gear supplied by my shop - both familiar and (hopefully) maintained rather than in a hodge-podge of gear they had collected themselves on the internet that may or may not function as expected. The instructor's job just became a bit more difficult...to expect them to express joy over that is....shall we say....unreasonable.

Divers also have reasons, again not all of them monetary, for wanting their own unique gear, but also want to save money.

One thing that no one seems to have mentioned yet, (and it surprises me because it comes up here on NWDC all the darn time!), is that one really good reason NOT to buy a butt-load of gear (new or used) when you are getting ready for training is that brand new divers just don't have the knowledge and experience to know what is good gear and what is not. This isn't a slam on new divers, it's simply a statement of fact. The knowledge of the best gear types and configuration for you will only come with time and experience.

I can't even tell you how many times I have seen or heard the words, "I wish I hadn't bought that", coming from divers that thought they were getting great stuff at great prices, only to discover quite quickly that they had bought something not really suitable for them or that doesn't match up with the type of diving they have NOW decided they want to do.

Like I said....my two cents.

- John

[Nwbrewer]

My two cents:

I can see both sides of this issue.

Shops have very good reasons, not all of them monetary, for wanting new divers in similar and familiar equipment that functions as expected during training dives. The instructor in this case is now going to have to deal with not only a batch of new divers that don't know anything about their equipment (the normal situation for OW classes), he or she is ALSO now going to have to deal with a bunch of used gear that is "basically" unfamiliar to him/her as well. Funny thing about used gear - sometimes when you finally get it out on an actual dive it doesn't work the way that it is supposed to. That potential is now there. If I were an instructor with a class of brand new divers I would prefer them to be in the gear supplied by my shop - both familiar and (hopefully) maintained rather than in a hodge-podge of gear they had collected themselves on the internet that may or may not function as expected. The instructor's job just became a bit more difficult...to expect them to express joy over that is....shall we say....unreasonable.

Divers also have reasons, again not all of them monetary, for wanting their own unique gear, but also want to save money.

One thing that no one seems to have mentioned yet, (and it surprises me because it comes up here on NWDC all the darn time!), is that one really good reason NOT to buy a butt-load of gear (new or used) when you are getting ready for training is that brand new divers just don't have the knowledge and experience to know what is good gear and what is not. This isn't a slam on new divers, it's simply a statement of fact. The knowledge of the best gear types and configuration for you will only come with time and experience.

I can't even tell you how many times I have seen or heard the words, "I wish I hadn't bought that", coming from divers that thought they were getting great stuff at great prices, only to discover quite quickly that they had bought something not really suitable for them or that doesn't match up with the type of diving they have NOW decided they want to do.

Like I said....my two cents.

- John

Hey I beat you to it John -

... If at all possible I think people should try and dive a few different types of gear BEFORE buying stuff for themselves. This stuff is expensive, and there's lots of people here (me included unfortunately) that bought gear early on that now sits in closets.

I agree with the issue of the instructor not wanting to have to deal with unfamiliar/potentially unmaintained gear. That's a reason for the shop employee to calmly and rationally explain the shop's policy that all OW class must be done in the shops rental gear. Doesn't sound like that was the response he got though....

[John Rawlings]

Yep....you sure DID beat me to it! Not sure how I managed to miss that....

[Nwbrewer]

If you read overything posted here you'd never do anything else...

[Grateful Diver]

If you read overything posted here you'd never do anything else...

That's what my boss keeps telling me ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Dusty2]

My two cents:

I can see both sides of this issue.

Shops have very good reasons, not all of them monetary, for wanting new divers in similar and familiar equipment that functions as expected during training dives. The instructor in this case is now going to have to deal with not only a batch of new divers that don't know anything about their equipment (the normal situation for OW classes), he or she is ALSO now going to have to deal with a bunch of used gear that is "basically" unfamiliar to him/her as well. Funny thing about used gear - sometimes when you finally get it out on an actual dive it doesn't work the way that it is supposed to. That potential is now there. If I were an instructor with a class of brand new divers I would prefer them to be in the gear supplied by my shop - both familiar and (hopefully) maintained rather than in a hodge-podge of gear they had collected themselves on the internet that may or may not function as expected. The instructor's job just became a bit more difficult...to expect them to express joy over that is....shall we say....unreasonable.

Divers also have reasons, again not all of them monetary, for wanting their own unique gear, but also want to save money.

One thing that no one seems to have mentioned yet, (and it surprises me because it comes up here on NWDC all the darn time!), is that one really good reason NOT to buy a butt-load of gear (new or used) when you are getting ready for training is that brand new divers just don't have the knowledge and experience to know what is good gear and what is not. This isn't a slam on new divers, it's simply a statement of fact. The knowledge of the best gear types and configuration for you will only come with time and experience.

I can't even tell you how many times I have seen or heard the words, "I wish I hadn't bought that", coming from divers that thought they were getting great stuff at great prices, only to discover quite quickly that they had bought something not really suitable for them or that doesn't match up with the type of diving they have NOW decided they want to do.

Like I said....my two cents.

- John

I have to agree with John on this 100% especially because I made all those mistakes and it ended up as a very unpleasant experience. As with allot of the shops my open water class was a cattle call. Too many students in the pool at the same time though my equipment worked OK it did cause him to have to answer questions he shouldn't have and thus disrupted his routine and it went downhill from there. I ended up being asked to go with different instructor and start over. Needless to say I learned a painful lesson that still smolders in the back of my brain. First impressions are very important and I defiantly got off on the wrong foot.

I would advise that you either start fresh with another shop and do it there way from the get go or at least use their gear for the classes and get help with your stuff afterwords from the people here

Also have to agree that buying before cert is very risky business. Not matter how much you read and try to make good decisions you just don't have the information you need to get what you will end up wanting. All the stuff I bought before hand was usable warm water gear but old tech and not appropriate for our challenging conditions in the northwest. I have sold some of it but ended up giving away most of it and probably still have a piece or two laying around.