Lake WA wrecks access

[CaptnJack]

This is not a specific site review, more of a general Lake WA access issue...

As many of you are aware, there are quite a few wrecks in Lake Washington. Many of these wrecks are increasingly popular and they are being damaged by shot lines and anchors being dropped on or in some cases through them.

Examples of the damage includes the flaps on the P4Y "bomber" off Sand Point. And the entire fabric fuselage of the Valient off Kirkland. Numerous holes have been punched in both by shot balls and other wreck marking strategies in just the last few years.

Both have had lines established to them from shore. In the latter case, the line was removed by unknown persons possibly trying to preserve the Valient's anonymity.

I would like to encourage members of this community to leave lines to scooterable wrecks alone. Nobody here is stealing artifacts off any of the Lake Washington wrecks (If you are put them back! For God's sake they are our collective history and Navy property).

By far the greatest risk to most wrecks at this point in history is from shot lines and anchors. Please allow people to dive them with zero impact by not disturbing shore access lines.

If you must access them by boat, please use a soft weightbelt and drop it off the wreck then use a line to connect. There is still some risk of damage this way since there's a tendency to try to get the shotline as close as possible. So scootering from shore really is better for the wreck.

Thank you for respecting the wreck and environment first.

Richard

[jsharps]

The Valiant being the most fragile of the Lk Washington aircraft it would be better not to create any type of yellow brick road marking the way. Having a line to the wreck only promotes additional access to it – and the comment about no one stealing artifacts off these wrecks is just simply not accurate.

If you are personally accessing the wreck by boat exercise some common sense and drop the ball away from the wreck, then use your reel to locate the wreck from your down line. If you are diving from shore run a straight path out to it by compass only. Neither are difficult tasks, plus double double diamond bonus you build some underwater nav and search skills.

[mattwave]

and the comment about no one stealing artifacts off these wrecks is just simply not accurate.

drop the ball away from the wreck, then use your reel to locate the wreck from your down line. If you are diving from shore run a straight path out to it by compass only. Neither are difficult tasks, plus double double diamond bonus you build some underwater nav and search skills.

Curious to the first comment: We have extensive video of the 4 planes that are most frequently dived and have seen the evident damage of drop balls (That's why I agree with the second comment, to extend on that, how about just lowering your drop, rather than letting it fly?), but not obvious signs of removal. I remember a year or so back when there was a lot of question regarding a missing glass panel from the P-4Y, just to see it dives later on the ground next to the plane. We are fortunate that our area isn't plagued with artifact fever that other areas have been, although we must continue to preserve the integrity of local wrecks. If you have any items you are concerned about, I would like to review our videos again to concur, I must admit last week on the PV-2, I noticed a gas cap was not on the wing, but I have no video or rememberence of one being there, then I noticed the cap is still on the main fuselage, so I figured if someone took one, they would have taken the other? There were panel doors open too that have not been open before, I thought of closing them, so they wouldn't get snagged, but then I reminded myself of the strict "No Touch Rule" I insist on myself and other divers on my team.

We will continue to work with who we consider the "True" authority on wreck preservation in the lake and in our local waters, and will report any items we can prove are missing.

[dsteding]

We will continue to work with who we consider the "True" authority on wreck preservation in the lake and in our local waters, and will report any items we can prove are missing.

Who is the "true" authority? The Navy?

I posted this elsewhere, but it is somewhat germane to this conversation: someone mentioned to me that the roof of the Warren Car has been ripped off in the past few months. True? If so, my question is whether there is a new group of tech divers locally that lacks respect for these wrecks.

[CaptnJack]

In my experience I know of no artifact actually stolen in the past few years. Maybe before that, maybe I haven't noticed what's missing, I don't dive the wrecks that much. There has been innumerable speculation about the glass plate and the tail/wires of the PV2 etc. The gas cap issue is new to me.

There is a known, demonstrated risk of shot lines and anchors. The 25+ holes in the Valient are evidence enough of that. Overall we have little "artifact fever" in this area, and theft is theft anyway. To wit, I would prefer to minimize the known risks which are definately occuring vs. the potential theft risks which only might occur.

People should respect one another's lines.

Heritage unable to be appreciated is not much heritage at all.

[CaptnJack]

Who is the "true" authority? The Navy?

http://www.dahp.wa.gov/

[mattwave]

who we consider the "True" authority on wreck preservation in the lake and in our local waters, and will report any items we can prove are missing.

Who is the "true" authority? The Navy?

when I say authority, I mean the experts who are most concerned and it is their business, not just activity. Yes authority was a bit ambiguous.

[mattwave]

True? If so, my question is whether there is a new group of tech divers locally that lacks respect for these wrecks.

Sounds like there is a lot questioning going around.
We need a Scuba Sheriff - maybe Chuck would do it.

[dsteding]

True? If so, my question is whether there is a new group of tech divers locally that lacks respect for these wrecks.

Sounds like there is a lot questioning going around.
We need a Scuba Sheriff - maybe Chuck would do it.

Perhaps we do. The fact of the matter is that the only way these will stay preserved is through self-policing. If what we are seeing is increased traffic and a corresponding degredation of the wrecks, then we need to either (a) decrease traffic or (b) ensure people don't trash them.

How is DAHP proposing to preserve these things?

[mattwave]

True? If so, my question is whether there is a new group of tech divers locally that lacks respect for these wrecks.

Sounds like there is a lot questioning going around.
We need a Scuba Sheriff - maybe Chuck would do it.

Perhaps we do. The fact of the matter is that the only way these will stay preserved is through self-policing. If what we are seeing is increased traffic and a corresponding degredation of the wrecks, then we need to either (a) decrease traffic or (b) ensure people don't trash them.

How is DAHP proposing to preserve these things?

How do you propose we accomplish (a) or (b) while preserving our rights, and not alarming goverment agencies?
History has proven that unless access is denied, human impact whether lite or severe will continue.
Lake Crescent was mentioned, what did it take to instill a permit only program (That the Ranger is enforcing)?

[CaptnJack]

DAHP is pretty lame IMO. They have almost no authority to sanction. While I'm not intimate with the details, I know they have been rather ineffective in reigning in DOT on the SR520 replacement issue.

Ditto for the destruction of parts of Galloping Gertie by the new bridge construction. They got a little mitigation in exchange for alot of damage.

Overall I have not seen DAHP or their earlier incarnations do much to preserve artifacts (of any kind) on state lands. Cite #3 - after a ineffective cultural resource survey, the new Hood Canal bridge construction project damaged alot of tribal resources over in PA before it was finally shut down.

[dsteding]

How do you propose we accomplish (a) or (b) while preserving our rights, and not alarming goverment agencies?
History has proven that unless access is denied, human impact whether lite or severe will continue.
Lake Crescent was mentioned, what did it take to instill a permit only program (That the Ranger is enforcing)?

Well, you are the one mentioning agencies, so I'd ask how they are being brought in without "alarming" them.

I think you said it best in your second sentence. Either you limit access, accept the toll the access will have on the sites, or change the way people interact with the wrecks. That is a policy call for the greater public to make.

What is your position?

Limit access?

Keep things in their current Northeast wreck-diver, secretive manner? I

t seems like it used to be that the deeper wrecks were limited in access by the few people diving them. I don't really have the experience to say if this is true, but it seems like there are just more tech divers in general and more potential for damage.

I think the answer is for instructors to instill a strong conservation ethic in their students. Your "don't touch" policy being one example of that. It seems to me that isn't happening across the board.

I'm not sure why the permit system is in place at Lake Crescent. Care to elaborate on that one? I have no background, just the bit of knowledge that the Warren Car was recently damaged.

[Grateful Diver]

Well, the obvious solution would be to quit training tech divers ... because once someone pays all that money for training and equipment, they're gonna want to access all those cool wrecks.

And humans being what they are, those divers are going to run the whole spectrum of personalities ... from extremely considerate to extremely self-serving.

From this perspective, training more tech divers appears to be the source of the problem ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[mattwave]

Let's just limit the diving to Tech Divers only trained by instructor (a), or charters set up by dive shop (b).

Hey is it the bubbles deteriorating these wrecks, should we limit diving to CCR?

Maybe no one should dive them all together and let the downrigger balls and sockeye nets pull them apart. :rr:

[dsteding]

Let's just limit the diving to Tech Divers only trained by instructor (a), or charters set up by dive shop (b).

Hey is it the bubbles deteriorating these wrecks, should we limit diving to CCR?

Maybe no one should dive them all together and let the downrigger balls and sockeye nets pull them apart. :rr:

Not a very helpful or constructive response. But, that certainly is one option.

I'm seriously trying to drive a constructive conversation on this topic. Obviously it is a sensitive issue, but at least I tried. Back to snotty dive shop politics as usual, I guess.

[Pez7378]

Let's just limit the diving to Tech Divers only trained by instructor (a), or charters set up by dive shop (b).

Hey is it the bubbles deteriorating these wrecks, should we limit diving to CCR?

Maybe no one should dive them all together and let the downrigger balls and sockeye nets pull them apart. :rr:

Not a very helpful or constructive response. But, that certainly is one option.

I'm seriously trying to drive a constructive conversation on this topic. Obviously it is a sensitive issue, but at least I tried. Back to snotty dive shop politics as usual, I guess.

[mattwave]

Not a very helpful or constructive response. But, that certainly is one option.

I'm seriously trying to drive a constructive conversation on this topic. Obviously it is a sensitive issue, but at least I tried. Back to snotty dive shop politics as usual, I guess.

Ok Ok, my bad for joshn around (No Pun intended Nailer), it's just for where I am sitting, you are going through similar frustrations I have had long ago in the past. I can honestly say that I have been led to beleive that there is very little we civilians can do to stop diving on the lake, and we here at NWSD are doing our best to keep these wrecks preserved by enforcing a no touch rule, and we have had several students take our tech training that have gone on to their own lake endeavors. I can only assume they have every intention in preserving these wrecks as we do.
This is a sensitive issue and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, if you find me secretive, it's because my assumptions are based on rumors as many others are. As for the NE wreck diving community, it is also my assumption they would approach these wreck with crowbars and hammers, which would be evident very quickly by survey.
Fisherman with downrigger balls and large sockeye nets are my new focus.
I have no intention of telling anyone these wrecks should be off limits to any one group. If you do, it would be best to just voice it rather than be secretive too, your opinion Doug has always been valid to me and if it's me then I will do my best to convince you to consider changing it.

[mattwave]

I'm not sure why the permit system is in place at Lake Crescent. Care to elaborate on that one? I have no background, just the bit of knowledge that the Warren Car was recently damaged.

The Warren's Car requires a permit to dive and The Ranger has stopped cars belonging to divers.

[Pez7378]

Come on folks. I'm still young and impressionable. I'm following this topic closely and have nothing constructive to add other than I too believe in preserving the integrity of these historic sites and hope that I can one day visit them. Someone out there knows who is damaging these wrecks. My guess is that it is someone from out of town who will never come back to dive these sites, and has no stake in the preservation of the sites. So, if I am correct we can still train Tech Divers locally, and teach them about site preservation. It's those out of towners we need to watch.

[dsteding]

If you do, it would be best to just voice it rather than be secretive too, your opinion Doug has always been valid to me and if it's me then I will do my best to convince you to consider changing it.

No, not my intention to suggest that we make these off limits but to a select group at all. I'm a bit at a loss as to how you come up with that, because I think I stated early on that these are resources for the public to enjoy. Just seems that this is the commonly held belief in terms of preservation, and I'm driving at that point to open up some dialog on it.

Fisherman with downrigger balls and large sockeye nets are my new focus.
I have no intention of telling anyone these wrecks should be off limits to any one group.

Now, here is something interesting. Let's look at when the last sockeye fishery was. I know there were reports of more nets in the lakes recently. Shot balls and downrigger balls are pretty damn similar.

So, the core question may be what, or who, is causing the damage seen?

[dsteding]

Okay, let me clarify my points a bit more:

1) We appear to have an issue of wrecks deteriorating.

2) We as a community value these resources.

So, we have a decision to make. The way I see it, we can (a) point fingers at other groups and say "they are doing it" (the petty dive shop politics reference above) or (b) as a common community have a constructive dialog about what to do about this.

It may very well be that outside forces are responsible for the damage we see. I don't dive there yet, which is why I've asked for people's opinions on what is going on. Identify that, and you can hopefully find a solution.

I've dived with a fair number of different groups that are on these wrecks. I respect the skills and intentions of everyone I've dived with. There are representatives from at least three of those groups monitoring this thread. Good opportunity for dialog in my book. That is my point.

[Joshua Smith]

It's hopeless- we can yammer about it on the 'net until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, the best thing we can do is to try and create a culture within our dive "Community" (and I use that term loosely- more like a family- well, more like my family, and most of the ones I know- lotsa feuds, power struggles, slander, politics, backstabbing....what's your family like?) anyway, where was I?

Oh, yeah- ....create a culture within our dive "community" wherein touching, damaging, or salvaging from the wrecks is verboten- anyone who does so will be ostracized, reported to the relevant authorities, and dragged through the streets by the rear bumper of my van.

[Sounder]

It's hopeless- we can yammer about it on the 'net until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, the best thing we can do is to try and create a culture within our dive "Community" (and I use that term loosely- more like a family- well, more like my family, and most of the ones I know- lotsa feuds, power struggles, slander, politics, backstabbing....what's your family like?) anyway, where was I?

Oh, yeah- ....create a culture within our dive "community" wherein touching, damaging, or salvaging from the wrecks is verboten- anyone who does so will be ostracized, reported to the relevant authorities, and dragged through the streets by the rear bumper of my van.

Unfortunately, I think you're right on the money.

[Grateful Diver]

The point being that ... like any other resource out there ... the more people use it, the more problems they're going to create.

Is this really not just another case of "loving it to death"?

We see this in all tenets of our activities ... with virtually every resource on the planet. Human interaction, by it's very nature, tends to create this sort of problem.

The only way to truly preserve a resource is to make it off-limits to everybody. If that's not going to be an option then, realistically, one can only seek to minimize the damage through cultural awareness and cooperation.

Certainly you can't post a scuba police out there to prevent people from doing stupid or careless things ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[CaptnJack]

Nobody can come up with a single instance of an artifact truly turning up missing. Apparently there was some pilfering off the PBM years ago hence the window bars and screens (at least thats the rumor).

But all other efforts to demonstrate malicious destruction of anything in Lake WA have either turned out to be false alarms. Or there was never anything conclusive. If there is something conclusive I'd like to hear/see the evidence.

Yet there are more holes than ever in some of these wrecks. I don't believe the damage is intentional. Its nets, shot balls, downriggers, fishermen, just activity. I don't think people in the water near the wreck are causing much damage. Maybe a little on the Valient since its paper thin - fins could damage that. But (e.g.) the flaps on the P4Y are not being punched by divers.

There's nothing to be done about fishermen, tribal or recreational. They have far more clout than anything of historical value or divers. That damage society will need to learn to live with, and not blame each other for. But what other types of activities in our collective control could be damaging? Diving and anchoring (shot line or the actual boat anchor).

Its a public water of the state and the sumberged lands are public as well. Putting diving off-limits could be done. Its been done elsewhere typically at war wrecks and graves. Not really a panacea though since other types of damage will still occur. And unappreciated history is not very valuable anyway.

Another alternative is to reduce the probability of damage by scootering those that can be scootered. A line is a somewhat necessary evil here. It may increase traffic, or it may just divert some boat divers to shore divers. Does the potential for greater traffic cause more or less damage than using shot lines? That is an unanswered question, although shots certainly cause damage and we don't know if a guideline will increase traffic. And even if a guideline did increase traffic we still don't know that diver traffic (fins, hands, etc) is actually to blame for substantive damage. That's alot of ifs against the known damage 8+ lb lead balls can cause.

The alternative is to use soft weights for shot lines and lower them slowly away from the wreck when diving from a boat. These 2 choices are essentially what I asked of the community in my OP.