To DMC or not to DMC...

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lavachickie
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To DMC or not to DMC...

Post by lavachickie »

[Changed the subject from "When to DMC" to... :-) ]

A question like this seems akin to starting a religious discussion; I post with a bit of trepidation. But just a bit. I'd like to hear different theories on when is the best/right time to start as a DMC.

How does one know when one is ready? I've seen it all -- naturally comfortable divers who go straight into DMC after ow/aow/rescue and are wonderful; and divers who waited years to do it and still kinda stink. =-) For me... I can't decide when to say when... here's what I'm thinking:

When I hit #50, take the UTD Essentials class which, I've been told, will mop up any bad habits I have (and I'm curious about the DIR philosophy; not so much in tech diving, but in a tech like approach to rec). Then, pick the instructor I want to DMC under (will be PADI because that's pretty much what's available here [edit: Willamette Valley]). At this point, DM is as far as I plan to go.

A little about me: I started OW in November 09 and to make along story short, I'm hooked. Only 40 some dives though. Love warm water, but like cold water, too. So much so that my husband staged an intervention after I drove to WA four straight weekends to dive in July/August. =-) (One reason I love him: he said if that's what I wanted to do, it was fine, but we did have a house and dogs to take care of so we might have to talk about how to handle the split responsibilities of a household, etc.) The experience has brought me more into my body, made me physically and mentally stronger, and rekindled a childhood dream of oceanography. The focus and meditative nature of the act, coupled with the incredible thrill of exploration, nourishes me like nothing I've ever found.

I'm not your average female diver: I'm a very large woman (but gettin' smaller every day, thanks to being brought more into my body). People seeing me do this has resulted in many great discussions about what people dream of doing, all the things they let stop them, and how to bust through those (whether we're talking diving or anything else). So I have a passion especially for helping women enter diving, and the sensitivity of what challenges large folk have with getting the right gear, etc.

As someone who thrives on connecting with people, sharing my modest knowledge of diving really excites me. I love talking to the kids at Alki or Les Davis, for instance. And the adults, too. :-) But what really solidified this thought to go to DM was assisting my sis in law. She finished her OW class w/ difficulty, and was wanting to get into the water, but not comfortable doing so. I thought long and hard about whether I was ready to assist her -- it's one thing to have your own routine down, know you can keep your sh*t together when diving with someone of equal or better skill than you (who you are confident can likewise keep their sh*t together). But to enter the water with someone who KNOWS they panic in certain situations... I thought long and hard about that before offering to work with her. I felt I was ready.

Don't get me wrong, it was a long hard day... but I loved it. Even when she was freaking out at the surface and climbing on top of me to get out of the water, I was having fun. =-) (Her lack of water comfort was primarily at the surface; her vest tilts her forward, which causes her to be uncomfortable. Her ankles start to rise behind her, she starts to move her legs which of course pushes her further forward and... a nice loop which causes an explosion of panic. It took me a moment to really accept that she did not know or no one had told her the obvious: flip onto your back when you hit the surface, and let the back inflate push you up out of the water. That one piece of advice helped her immensely.

She wanted to stand on land, drop down to the bottom (if that's possible in 3-4 feet of water) and then crawl along the bottom, dirt diving her away along, never NOT touching the ground. This behavior was allowed, I assume, to get her through to the cert. We spent about half an hour on the surface, then did a few simple drills to get her focused on something else and then did a nice easy "exploration" dive no deeper than she could CESA. It went well... unless you were behind us. :rofl:

By the end of our 2nd dive (a good 45 minutes at Alki Cove 3) she was doing much better, able to swim to the buoy, drop down to 30 ft, and I got her 2 feet off the bottom by the end. :joshsmith:

Through all this, she has a great eye for spotting critters -- she's comfortable once UNDER the water for the most part, but will need work with really getting comfortable in the 3D world of water without lying on the bottom. I had promised to hold her hand the whole time if she wanted to, and when halfway through our first dive she pulled her hand away by choice I smiled so big I almost lost my reg. :taco:

So I dunno... setting some arbitrary point like get X number of dives seems silly... and I think I'm ready but... what if I don't know what I don't know!? :-)
Last edited by lavachickie on Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Blaiz
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by Blaiz »

good post chickie, and I echo some of those questions, thoughts, and feelings. I like feeding the tourists who ask tons of questions, too!
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sitkadiver
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by sitkadiver »

Good job and a great story.

I have often wondered how many people would still be diving if they had a good mentor to support them during their early days of diving.

When I was working as a dive master and before that a dive contrrol specialist(SSI's version) I would see tons of people get certified with thier partner, spouse, friend or whom ever and then stop diving becuase it was never realized that these skills take time to master and diving enough to master these skills will easily chew up a few dozen pages in a log book.

I am very greatfull of the buddies I've had over the year who were older and more experienced and were able to teach me skills and habits that just worked better.

Hope you keep diving no matter what your 'rating'.

Cheers to yah
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spatman
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by spatman »

lavachickie wrote:So I dunno... setting some arbitrary point like get X number of dives seems silly... and I think I'm ready but... what if I don't know what I don't know!? :-)

that's the big question right there, and one only you can answer. there's no definite marker for when someone is ready, since everyone's abilities are different, not to mention opinions on those abilities.

asking these questions is a sign that you are on the right track. you'll know when you are ready.
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Dusty2
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by Dusty2 »

In my opinion you sound like someone who is ready to start the journey. Yes there are lots of people who will say you have to have X amount of dives before you can even think about DM but that's just bunk. Everyone is different and there is no minimum required number. I would say by the time you go through the required prerequisite ratings you will know if you want to continue and if your ready.

I would suggest you get with Grateful Diver Bob and do a dive or 2 and let him set you on the right course. He would be a great choice to continue your education but there are several women instructors here too if you would prefer that route. Amy comes to mind and Janna. Both are larger ladies so they would be full of useful info for you. In fact Since you live down south Janna would be a good choice or at least could point you in the right direction.

I hope the new doesn't wear off and you continue what you have started. You sound like someone who would make a good DM.

Good Luck

Oh and by the way. Being in a like situation and stuck at home dog sitting when ever the wife is off to her dog shows I can fully understand where you hubby is coming from. We have worked it out so that we each try to support the other and work our schedules out so each has his or her time. Takes a little give and take but it can be done.
Last edited by Dusty2 on Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nwbrewer
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by Nwbrewer »

Maybe locate an instructor you intend DMC with, and go diving with them. See what they think about your current skill level and if you're ready to begin your DMC training. Beware of shops just looking to get your $ though. I've met some DM's who shouldn't have OW cards.

Good luck!

Jake
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Sounder
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by Sounder »

Nwbrewer wrote:Maybe locate an instructor you intend DMC with, and go diving with them. See what they think about your current skill level and if you're ready to begin your DMC training. Beware of shops just looking to get your $ though. I've met some DM's who shouldn't have OW cards.

Good luck!

Jake
+1 This is really good advice. I've seen both DMs and Instructors who shouldn't have OW cards.

Here's an excellent video showing a group of Instructor Trainers and DM and Instructor candidates. Notice the skill, control, and comfort difference between the star of the video and the divers (the Instructor class) in the background. Also consider their ability to respond to a serious (potentially life or death) situation of a panicked student. Who would you want to be your "safety net" should something go wrong in a class you were taking? This is the kind of thing I considered before entering into my DM program.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvK1VrSx09E[/youtube]

Also, PADI isn't the only game in town. There are many instructors from a variety of agencies who all come highly recommended. If you are looking for a PADI instructor, I'm happy to recommend one who provides and EXCELLENT DM program and who is a very good person to learn from and pattern yourself after.
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Tom Nic
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by Tom Nic »

spatman wrote:
lavachickie wrote:So I dunno... setting some arbitrary point like get X number of dives seems silly... and I think I'm ready but... what if I don't know what I don't know!? :-)

that's the big question right there, and one only you can answer. there's no definite marker for when someone is ready, since everyone's abilities are different, not to mention opinions on those abilities.

asking these questions is a sign that you are on the right track. you'll know when you are ready.
Great post Lavachickie - thanks for sharing your thought process with us. Great advice on this thread, and your initial post sounds like you're clarifying your own thoughts more all the time - keep it up. (OH, and BTW, I absolutely agree with you about an "arbitrary number of dives" seeming silly. Perhaps as a minimum threshold it's understandable, but NOT as a "I've finished such and such dives so I need to now get such and such cert".)

OK - now my own .02 psi worth. Warning in advance - long winded rambling ahead. Feel free to skip... Also - my intent is NOT to criticize an agency or anyone - just to talk about my own experience. If anyone finds their blood pressure rising, trust me, it's not worth it. I'm sure I'm not talking about you anyway! :angelblue:

IMO, the only reason to do your DM and move into the instructor realm is that you want to work with students, and want to do so on a regular basis. After that can come a career motive (part time or not).

From what I have personally experienced, the typical DM program doesn't actually improve your skills that much. You get to dive more, hopefully you work with a solid, attentive instructor that wants to help you improve as a diver. But quite frankly, there are TONS of people that will dive with you informally that will really help you in that area here in the Puget Sound. We have an almost embarrasing wealth of riches in our local dive community once you get by the occasional drama and folks peeing in each others cheerios.

I realize I am making a huge generalization, and I know that there are exceptions, but I stand by the generalization nonetheless.

My own journey - I dove once a month for the first six months I was certified, then went berserk after I sprung for my own equipment. I bought just about every cert PADI has to offer (with the exception of a few specialties, though I bought my share of those as well) in my first 18 months of diving, and had fun doing so. However, it was not until a 6 month stint of mid-week diving with several friends that my personal skills really took a jump. Not that I'm that amazing, but the difference of being comfortable in the water and with your equipment vs. flailing your way through the dive sites and the underwater life is huge, again, IMO. Once I realized that many a cert card didn't neccesarily get me anything I couldn't get on my own (there are exceptions, of course) or make me a better diver (you can't take someone beyond where you are yourself) I stopped and reassessed what my goals were and what I wanted to get out of diving.

Again, there are wonderful exceptions to the above, but I still stand by the generalizations.

I paid for and went through half of my DM program before I thought - "Do I really want to do this now? What do I have to gain, and how will my diving be any different if I complete this program and go on?" The answer, for me, was "Not one iota." Perhaps it was a coincidence that I decided to stop pursuing my DM when I hit the chapters on insurance and liability... :violent1: I decided that I wanted to actually enjoy diving, and that if I wanted to help mentor newer divers I could do so just fine informally rather than follow a set path. Because I did not have the goal of becoming an instructor it didn't make sense for me to go on.

Eeryone has different reasons for diving, and those reasons often change and evolve as you pursue the underwater world. Being an old fat guy I had no interest in tech diving.... But being an avid photographer I soon discovered that there are reasons for going deeper and staying there longer... So there is training that I may pursue in the future - but NOT because it is in an organizational flow chart that tells me what is next. The marketing part of said chart is understandable and efficient, but again IMO it doesn't fit every diver.

So...... all of that to say, continue on the path. Talk with other divers, talk with people from other agencies, get opinions, and continue to form your own. As your personal goals crystalize in your thinking for you it will become more and more apparent the direction you should take.

And thanks for telling a part of your own story here!
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by mz53480 »

Sounder wrote:...Here's an excellent video showing a group of Instructor Trainers and DM and Instructor candidates. ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvK1VrSx09E...
:)
LOL--the diver in doubles at 1:30-1:35. As if he's saying "well, am I done yet or what!?"
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lavachickie
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by lavachickie »

Nwbrewer wrote:Maybe locate an instructor you intend DMC with, and go diving with them. See what they think about your current skill level and if you're ready to begin your DMC training. Beware of shops just looking to get your $ though. I've met some DM's who shouldn't have OW cards.

Good luck!

Jake
Great idea. I had it backwards (decide to move forward, then choose someone. Not like anyone good would have let me get started if I wasn't ready). :-)

But Tom Nic has a point -- what do I want to do? I like to help people, but I can do that without paying $$$ and having to make a lot of commitments w/ classes. So what am I REALLY looking for. I spent some time thinking about it this morning, trying to see what was the real issue. What I'm really looking for is a mentor who will help me advance.

Thanks for the therapy. ;-)
Last edited by lavachickie on Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dusty2
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by Dusty2 »

Good input Tom. Like you I have no interest in DMC or any more cert cards. I decided that my goal is photography and to a certain extent learning what all the critters are and their habits and I really don't need a card to do that. You learn best by just getting out there and getting wet with people who share your passion.

As Tom sez we have many members here that will expand your horizons and skills just by diving with them and they don't charge money or require cert cards. Cert cards cost money and really do nothing but create more plastic to keep track of. In the last couple of years I haven't had one single reason to look at or show my cards to anyone and that's just fine with me.

Keep in mind that this is recreation and we love it because it's fun. Then ask yourself if you want to make it into work?
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Sounder
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by Sounder »

lavachickie wrote:
Nwbrewer wrote:Maybe locate an instructor you intend DMC with, and go diving with them. See what they think about your current skill level and if you're ready to begin your DMC training. Beware of shops just looking to get your $ though. I've met some DM's who shouldn't have OW cards.

Good luck!

Jake
Great idea. I had it backwards (decide to move forward, then choose someone. Not like anyone good would have let me get started if I wasn't ready). :-)

But Tom Nic has a point -- what do I want to do? I like to help people, but I can do that without paying $$$ and having to make a lot of commitments w/ classes. So what am I REALLY looking for. I spent some time thinking about it this morning, trying to see what was the real issue. What I'm really looking for is a mentor who will help me advance.

Thanks for the therapy. ;-)
Also remember, being a DM is like buying a car... BUYING the class is the cheapest part. Ask some folks who pay their own insurance and membership dues to the agency they DM for about that... insurance can be several hundred dollars for the privileged of DMing for free. It's an on-going expense, and is often much more than the cost of the class itself. Some shops will include you on their insurance if you DM for them, but typically there is an expectation for how MANY classes you're DMing for them in exchange for them covering your insurance.

Lots to consider.

If you're looking for the skills, I'd highly recommend the NAUI Master Diver class with Grateful Diver along with UTD Essentials with BDub (they're very different classes). They'll both teach you all the skills without the professional/leadership stuff. Then, as many of us have learned personally, mentoring someone can be extremely helpful to them without subjecting yourself to the liability and costs of being a "professional."
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spatman
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by spatman »

Dusty2 wrote:Keep in mind that this is recreation and we love it because it's fun. Then ask yourself if you want to make it into work?
my sentiments exactly. i had considered a DM cert as well, and have held back primarily for this reason.
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by enchantmentdivi »

Dusty2 wrote:Keep in mind that this is recreation and we love it because it's fun. Then ask yourself if you want to make it into work?
Amen!! Been there, done that. I got into diving to see the pretty fishies. I got sucked into the next rung on the ladder, and then the next rung and so on. Now after 9 years as a Dive Con (SSI's equivalent to DM & asst instructor--thank goodness I never succumbed to the pressure of becoming an instructor), I feel like I've come full circle because I've realized that I just want to dive to see the pretty fishies. When diving became about work, politics, affiliations, liability, insurance, etc, etc, it wasn't fun anymore. The pretty fishies were still there, but I wasn't seeing them anymore.
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Re: When to DMC?

Post by lavachickie »

enchantmentdivi wrote:Amen!! Been there, done that. I got into diving to see the pretty fishies. I got sucked into the next rung on the ladder, and then the next rung and so on. Now after 9 years as a Dive Con (SSI's equivalent to DM & asst instructor--thank goodness I never succumbed to the pressure of becoming an instructor), I feel like I've come full circle because I've realized that I just want to dive to see the pretty fishies. When diving became about work, politics, affiliations, liability, insurance, etc, etc, it wasn't fun anymore. The pretty fishies were still there, but I wasn't seeing them anymore.
As a somewhat Type A Ladder Climber (if it's there, it's hard for me to NOT climb it, yaknowwhatimean?) you could have just read me my future. But instead you've saved me a lot of time and money. Thanks. :partyman:

I'm firmly placing this idea back in the box. Maybe someday, but certainly not now. I'll spend the money that would have gone into the program on more trips and dive weekends up north. :supz: More fun, more seeing the pretty fishies. Part of me probably already knew that, because otherwise I would have DONE it instead of pondering so much if I should do it.

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Re: To DMC or not to DMC...

Post by WylerBear »

If you really enjoyed helping the student and want to go for Divemaster, it does not necessarily mean the end of fun diving. I am an Instructor. I got my DM cert after a year and a half of diving (although only 60 dives at that point), my AI after another year and a half, and then Instructor a year after that. I took my time although if I had it to do over again, once I decided to be an AI, I would have gone for OWSI at the same time.
After watching too many Instructors stop diving for fun unless they went on some warm water trip, I vowed never to stop fun diving. And I've been very successful. Partly that is due to my schedule-it does not lend itself to doing classes. But mostly, I'm just too stingy with my dive time. It is time for me. I love to dive. And while I also love to teach, especially diving, I come first. I need my peaceful, fun underwater time and get it.
You don't have to give up one for the other. And there are some nice perks to being a Dive Pro depending on the shop you affiliate with.
I live in Portland and if you ever want to discuss this further, or if you want to go do some fun diving, give me a buzz. I go up to Puget Sound 3-4 times a month-mostly to fun dive, not teach. :joshsmith:
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Tom Nic
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Re: To DMC or not to DMC...

Post by Tom Nic »

Thanks for another perspective Georgia.

Just underlines for me how each person needs to evaluate their situation (in your case a cool shop to work with), personality, and goals as they decide how to pursue their diving! I applaud you for making sure you get your "me time" to dive - and for taking time to formally teach and mentor. If anyone could pull it off you could!
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Re: To DMC or not to DMC...

Post by LCF »

lavachickie, do Essentials.

I was on the express train to DM and instructor before I did Fundies. I took one look at the instructor and realized I had no business thinking about teaching anybody anything, not for a long time.

I spent a couple of years getting experience and honing my own skills. I have now done my DM, and I think I bring a lot more to the table in terms of a) setting a good visual example for students; b) having the experience to answer questions about different kinds of diving and different places to go; and c) having enough training to keep my wits about me when things start to go wrong. And with students, they will and they do. (My first open water class dive as a DMC involved finding myself in the water with a woman in passive panic.)

There is no rush. There is a ton of stuff to see and things to do with your own, personal diving; and as you build your experience base, you can reach out to new divers and help them along the same road -- which is what I have done for the last four years. There is a huge hole in diving, which is the bridge from certification to competency, and mentors are enormously useful there.
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lavachickie
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Re: To DMC or not to DMC...

Post by lavachickie »

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion, and the PMs, too. Good stuff! I can be somewhat Type A, and if there is a ladder in front of me, I'm compelled to climb it. So I was looking at the training path as something I needed/had to do. And I will some day, but not in the immediate future.

PNW divers are the best. :supz:

No more thoughts of ladder climbing; just Triton Cove and Octopus hole this weekend, then Channel Islands in two weeks. :joshsmith:
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Re: To DMC or not to DMC...

Post by LCF »

Oh, go ahead and climb a training path . . . but make it one that improves your skills and your capacity, and makes your own dives more fun. And then go do lots of them. DM doesn't do much to make you a better or more capable diver.
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Re: To DMC or not to DMC...

Post by lavachickie »

I have the Essentials class on the calendar for the future. Once that's done, and I have had a taste of another training organization, then I'll think about what other formal trainings I want, and from whom. I've got the dive often part down. ;-)
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