Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

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Waynne Fowler
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Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Waynne Fowler »

While I was on another scuba forum this morning I ran into a comment that I see/hear instructors make quite frequently. The comment usually follows this thought pattern. "As an instructor while you are conducting Open Water Dives with uncertified students you are diving solo".. The intent is that as students they could not afford you (or anyone else for that matter) with any type of meaningful assistance if it were needed.
I've always had a hard time with this line of thinking as in my mind I don't know why someone would be in the open water on their check out dives if they were not really ready to be there and part of the criteria I use to take someone to the open water is an affirmative answer to the questions 1); "could this person help themselves if they were to have a problem at depth and no one were around".... 2); "could this person help someone else who has a problem at depth".
My question I guess then is that if we are diving 'solo' when conducting O/W classes with uncertified students because they could not help us underwater, what happens when they are certified and left to themselves? Do they magically get more skilled or smarter just by getting the cert? And how long is it until they become valuable enough in a team to be considered a 'resource' rather than a 'liability' to the team.

Am I being too simple minded and there's more to it then I'm seeing?

Which actually leads to another question about team's and team mate responsibilities. But I'll save that one for another thread or maybe this one will morph into the appropriate venue later.

Thanks

Enjoy the Dive.
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WylerBear
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by WylerBear »

My thought is that they probably could help and would help another student during a class or a dive buddy once they are on their own but would hesitate to help the instructor who obviously knows everything and can help themselves. A student might hesitate because they wouldn't really be sure the instructor needs help.
I actually did this very thing when taking my Cave 1 class. The instructor came to me with an OOA signal. I immediately looked to my buddy to see if SHE was in distress-it took me a moment to realize the instructor was the one with the (simulated) problem.
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Sounder »

If I happen to go OOG while we are both kneeling on the bottom facing one-another... then yes, they've definitely got me covered. If we're swimming mid-water and I go OOG, statistically there is only a slim fraction of new divers who I believe could help me without the whole thing going sideways.

Perhaps it's not the failure itself but rather the manner in which they were taught to manage it... and whether it was practiced thoroughly (or at least more than once or twice) during the class.
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LCF
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by LCF »

Well, we try to have all of our students competently doing mask clearing and air-sharing in midwater in the pool, before they go to OW. But as last Saturday reinforced for me, even the most talented and best achieving students in the pool seem to go through a pretty huge transition, going from a bathing suit, 84 degrees and clear water, to 46 degrees, 14 millimeters of neoprene, and 10 feet of viz. People who have shown good buoyancy control and poise in the pool suddenly yo-yo, flap their hands, and fail to respond to ANY kind of signals. No, I would NOT count on any of them to help me in a true emergency; if I didn't feel okay with handling just about anything that could happen to me in 30 feet of water, I wouldn't be there with day 1 students.

I think, and I hope, that by OW dive four, they've gotten through the shock and are beginning to process, and could help one another with the problems they have been taught to handle, at least to such a degree that no one would get hurt. But honestly, handling task loading when diving is something that comes with experience, skill and confidence.
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

Well, first off I'm gonna say it depends on the student ... they're all different, yanno.

But I don't feel that I'm diving solo at all. They're brand new at it ... so don't expect perfection. But if you're doing checkout dives, that means you've already showed them what to do in an emergency as part of the pool exercises. I know that's one reason why NAUI insists that you introduce rescue skills in OW, and why the mandatory rescue skills for OW are air share, bringing an unconscious diver to the surface, and rescue tows. Now, I'm not suggesting they'd handle it like a seasoned pro ... they're students, after all ... but they've been shown what to do, and they've demonstrated in the pool that they undestood what I showed them.

So why wouldn't I expect them to follow their training?

I think a lot of instructors are conditioned to expect too little from their students. I hope to never become one of those.

Besides ... quite a few of my students transition to becoming MY dive buddy ... so I have a self-interest in seeing that they understand how to do these things ...

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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by LCF »

I completely agree with you, as far as the goal of the OW class, Bob. But I've certainly been floored by the regression I see when students hit the cold, murky water for the first time. Do you really think yours are capable of producing everything they have been taught, the first time they're coping with the Sound? If so, I need to know your secret . . . :)
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by ljjames »

I agree with Bob here... I sometimes felt (way way back when) that the OW students were the most attentive dive buddies ever... and can say the same for many of the divers i mentor... in the beginning they are SO tuned in to whats going on with their instructor/dive mentor... the second they see ANYTHING different they point and ask and try to help... (sometimes not so helpful but they mean well) Now once they get a few dives under their belts.... <grin>

BUT... in the old days we did make them do more dives... and we made them do a few dives 'with their student buddy' once we had the required dives for basic OW completed with a DM shadowing (6-8 dives for OW) usually the navigation challenge at the Edmonds UW Park where they towed a float along and the DM swam above them. more often than not, we combined OW1 and OW2 into a 16 dive "northwest diver program"

Grateful Diver wrote:Well, first off I'm gonna say it depends on the student ... they're all different, yanno.

But I don't feel that I'm diving solo at all. They're brand new at it ... so don't expect perfection. But if you're doing checkout dives, that means you've already showed them what to do in an emergency as part of the pool exercises. I know that's one reason why NAUI insists that you introduce rescue skills in OW, and why the mandatory rescue skills for OW are air share, bringing an unconscious diver to the surface, and rescue tows. Now, I'm not suggesting they'd handle it like a seasoned pro ... they're students, after all ... but they've been shown what to do, and they've demonstrated in the pool that they undestood what I showed them.

So why wouldn't I expect them to follow their training?

I think a lot of instructors are conditioned to expect too little from their students. I hope to never become one of those.

Besides ... quite a few of my students transition to becoming MY dive buddy ... so I have a self-interest in seeing that they understand how to do these things ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

LCF wrote:I completely agree with you, as far as the goal of the OW class, Bob. But I've certainly been floored by the regression I see when students hit the cold, murky water for the first time. Do you really think yours are capable of producing everything they have been taught, the first time they're coping with the Sound? If so, I need to know your secret . . . :)
Some yes ... others no. Everyone reacts to cold and murky water differently. Some adapt to the addition restrictions and weight inherent in the 7 mm wetsuit faster than others. But by the end of the class they should either have adapted or been told that they need more work before they're ready to face the ocean without an instructor present.

My secret is simple, Lynne ... I won't turn 'em loose until I think they're ready. I think you know I had a couple of OW students last year who started their class in July and completed it in October. That's why.

But I think even those students would've been able to at least share air with me, if not bring my unconscious body to the surface, if they had to ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by LCF »

You know, I'm pretty sure that, by the end of the class, most of our students could donate gas and get to the surface -- maybe not at a perfect 30 fpm, but they'd get it done. But I read Waynne's original question as asking about students IN class, and I DO feel as though I'm on my own to solve problems for the first dive or two in open water. I could swim up to somebody and grab their octo, and I could get us to the surface, but I think I'd be doing all the managing.

When one of my original OW instructors MADE the comment that he considered himself diving solo when he was with students, I found it hurtful as a student, and I would never tell anybody that when I was working with them. But I do think it's true.

On the other hand, I love to go out with our graduates, and I feel quite sure that, by the end of the class, the majority could handle the issues they have been taught to handle in such a way that nobody would get hurt.
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by kdupreez »

LCF wrote:You know, I'm pretty sure that, by the end of the class, most of our students could donate gas and get to the surface -- maybe not at a perfect 30 fpm, but they'd get it done. But I read Waynne's original question as asking about students IN class, and I DO feel as though I'm on my own to solve problems for the first dive or two in open water. I could swim up to somebody and grab their octo, and I could get us to the surface, but I think I'd be doing all the managing.

When one of my original OW instructors MADE the comment that he considered himself diving solo when he was with students, I found it hurtful as a student, and I would never tell anybody that when I was working with them. But I do think it's true.

On the other hand, I love to go out with our graduates, and I feel quite sure that, by the end of the class, the majority could handle the issues they have been taught to handle in such a way that nobody would get hurt.
Great post, I absolutely agree. I teach a lot of OW classes and certainly depends on the individual to a certain extent, but I an confident that I can help myself in a situation where I need air during a class.. I can grab a students octo and surface if I really had to.. other than that, we are typically in 20-30ft of water.. I can swim to the surface ala CESA style if I had to.

BUT, that being said, an instructor should NEVER EVER run out of air during a class thats just a pure sign of an extremely lazy and dangerous instructor. (And I have had one of these situations during a class waaay back whilst assisting an instructor on a class)

If there are bigger problems that I run into, I dont think its fair to rely on a student to get you out of that situation, thats partly why we have dive trained staff (and lots of them) to help handle situations.

After class, I am confident that a newly certified diver should be able to respond to an emergency in a prudent manner.. it might not be pretty, but it will be better than nothin.. But yet again, when a diving professional (Instructor, DM, etc.) takes new divers out for experience dives, "other" emergencies withstanding, there is absolutely NO reason for that person to run out of air.. If a so called "diving professional" takes people into a situation where they entrust their lives to that professional and he/she willingly risks their lives due to his/her own complacency, then Darwin should maybe prevail.

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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

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kdupreez wrote:But yet again, when a diving professional (Instructor, DM, etc.) takes new divers out for experience dives, "other" emergencies withstanding, there is absolutely NO reason for that person to run out of air.. If a so called "diving professional" risks other people's lives due to his/her own complacency, then Darwin should maybe prevail.
Burst disks and LP hoses can fail. Valves can become clogged. Fishing line can be hard to see. If students aren't capable of handling these problems with an instructor/DM they aren't really to go off on their own.
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Sounder »

CaptnJack wrote:
kdupreez wrote:But yet again, when a diving professional (Instructor, DM, etc.) takes new divers out for experience dives, "other" emergencies withstanding, there is absolutely NO reason for that person to run out of air.. If a so called "diving professional" risks other people's lives due to his/her own complacency, then Darwin should maybe prevail.
Burst disks and LP hoses can fail. Valves can become clogged. Fishing line can be hard to see. If students aren't capable of handling these problems with an instructor/DM they aren't really to go off on their own.
Yeah dude... remember what Betty Lou did?!
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by kdupreez »

CaptnJack wrote:
kdupreez wrote:But yet again, when a diving professional (Instructor, DM, etc.) takes new divers out for experience dives, "other" emergencies withstanding, there is absolutely NO reason for that person to run out of air.. If a so called "diving professional" risks other people's lives due to his/her own complacency, then Darwin should maybe prevail.
Burst disks and LP hoses can fail. Valves can become clogged. Fishing line can be hard to see. If students aren't capable of handling these problems with an instructor/DM they aren't really to go off on their own.
I'm pretty sure we're sayin the same thing? (i.e. if they arent ready for this, they wont get a cert from me)
kdupreez wrote:After class, I am confident that a newly certified diver should be able to respond to an emergency in a prudent manner
What I am saying though is that an instructor or DM that takes shortcuts and runs low on air and even worse, runs out of air due to nothing else but complacency, is putting other people's lives at risk..

When you go through your instructor course you'll find the phrase "being a reasonably prudent person that applies sound judgment" and in my opinion any person that is in a "professional" diving capacity and decides to bypass these ethical foundations, should not be in that capacity to begin with and running low/out of air is a very very poor judgment call.

If a student/new diver ran out of air and you (the instructor) were very low on air and you shared air and eventually the both of you ran out of air and the student/new diver dies because of that.. chances are you will be liable because you we not being a reasonably prudent person and did not apply sound judgment when deciding to continue the dive with being low on air..

for heavens sake, an instructor or dm has peoples lives in his/her hands!! that is not a responsibility that should be taken lightly..

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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by CaptnJack »

Sounder wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:
kdupreez wrote:But yet again, when a diving professional (Instructor, DM, etc.) takes new divers out for experience dives, "other" emergencies withstanding, there is absolutely NO reason for that person to run out of air.. If a so called "diving professional" risks other people's lives due to his/her own complacency, then Darwin should maybe prevail.
Burst disks and LP hoses can fail. Valves can become clogged. Fishing line can be hard to see. If students aren't capable of handling these problems with an instructor/DM they aren't really to go off on their own.
Yeah dude... remember what Betty Lou did?!
I have no idea who Betty Lou is.

Koos, yes we're saying the same thing. Just didn't realize it at first :)
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Paulicarp »

CaptnJack wrote:I have no idea who Betty Lou is.
I believe Betty Lou is the spirit of one of the people interred at Cove 2 who was responsible for Cera's "Strangest operator error ever" ...or was it "Strangest equipment failure ever" Either way, same diff. :stir:
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Sounder »

Paulicarp wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:I have no idea who Betty Lou is.
I believe Betty Lou is the spirit of one of the people interred at Cove 2 who was responsible for Cera's "Strangest operator error ever" ...or was it "Strangest equipment failure ever" Either way, same diff. :stir:
Spooky huh!! :eek: :rofl:
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by nwbobber »

I really wish this was the standard. For some instructors, it is the standard. I have been diving with one of Bdubs OW students, who is a great buddy, is always where I can find him, always knows where I am, has great comfort in the water, deals with equipment problems etc. without losing his buoyancy. How they arrived at that level I cannot say, I wasn't there, but it seems that the progression of skills should start at a place where the only skill needed is to know how to respond to the thumb. Then work on the other skills until there is an acceptable level of proficiency. I know in some OW classes you flood your mask once in cold salt water, while kneeling on the bottom, and you passed that skill. Is that enough to get comfortable with dealing with a flooded mask? Is that enough to realize that if you are not kneeling on the bottom, some other things are about to happen, and you should be aware, and ready to deal with it? I don't know, most of us live through it, but I for one think there should be a higher standard, and a bit more time spent with an instructor before students are cut loose.
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

More time with an instructor is always desireable. But setting some expectations here ... an instructor's time isn't, or shouldn't be, free. People often look for the cheapest classes they can find, and as with most things in life, you get what you pay for. My students are fairly self-selecting, in that they come to me looking for a certain level of instruction and are willing to pay the asking price for it. I don't teach $129 OW classes ... mine run more along the lines of $350. So the expectation is that you'll get more time ... because you paid for it.

Second thing about expectations is that you need to understand going in that you're not buying a C-card ... you're buying training. If you want the C-card you have to earn it. The quality of the instructor is only half the picture ... the other half is the quality of effort the student is willing to put into learning. This begins in the classroom ... carries into the pool ... and culminates in the open water. People come with a wide range of aptitudes ... but it's universally true that what you get out of a class is directly proportional to what you put into it. Again, I'm lucky because a student who's motivated enough to do their homework and seek out an independent instructor is usually someone who's not just willing, but eager, to put real effort into a class. Whatever reputation I've earned as an instructor is to a large degree due to the quality of students I've had go through my classes. I couldn't teach a quality class without quality students receiving what I'm offering.

So I guess that's a long way of saying that the way to raise standards is to raise expectations ... both at the student and instructor level.Those who are willing to pay for, and work for, a quality education will generally get one ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by nwbobber »

I totally agree that if you want a good education, you need to pay for it, and put in the work necessary to master the subject. I just don't think the 129 dollar open water class is a good thing. It may be a great marketing strategy, but it is not a good way to turn out good, safe, dive buddies.
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by nwbobber »

I find it funny in a sport where the money required to get your gear together is measured in thousands, at least here in the northwest, that it is common to cheap out on the single investment that will do us the most good, will give us the greatest advantage in getting the most enjoyment out of the sport, that of our training. Anyone else?
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by kdupreez »

nwbobber wrote:I totally agree that if you want a good education, you need to pay for it, and put in the work necessary to master the subject. I just don't think the 129 dollar open water class is a good thing. It may be a great marketing strategy, but it is not a good way to turn out good, safe, dive buddies.
Oh boy.. here we go.. :popcorn:

I've said this before and I'll say it again.. the quality of the diver has NOTHING to do with how much he/she paid for the class, but rather everything to do with the instructor and the said instructor's standards.

I happen to teach through a store that offers these $129 OW classes and I dare anyone on this board to join one of my OW classes and once you have gone through that class with me, you welcome to your opinion of how bad of an education that $129 bought you..

Are there crappy $129 OW class instructors? Hell yea! are there crappy $1,500 tec instructors??.. Hell yes!! Are there crappy $350 Open Water instructors?? Absolutely!!

So again, I would really like it if everyone that has comments about a $129 OW class, please put your $129 where your mouth is and sit through one of those classes with me and THEN you are welcome to criticize it if you feel you received sub-par quality instruction from me..

Otherwise, if you were in ANY class (regardless of price) where you felt sub-standard classes we taught or standards were violated, at least have the balls to stand up and report those violations to PADI, NAUI or even the dive store management or at least be willing to name the instructor so I can report them. :smt064

the BEST a person wanting to dive can do is form an educated decision about where and from whom they want to receive instruction.. this is not a new problem and its not isolated to diving either.

I find the blanket statement of "$129 buys you a one way ticket to Davey Jones' locker", really resentful. :boxer:

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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by nwbobber »

I didn't say that your 129 dollar class wasn't a good one. I do believe that what Bob said about getting what you pay for in general, has a cause and effect relationship that can be measured. And I don't think that the agency standards are optimum, so I look for the Instructors who have a higher standard than that. Some agencies will not even let an instructor elevate the standard, student demonstrates skill, student passes... Not saying who... I don't think I was part of a good OW class, but I don't think the agencies standards were violated, so no reason to report said class.
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by kdupreez »

nwbobber wrote:I didn't say that your 129 dollar class wasn't a good one. I do believe that what Bob said about getting what you pay for in general, has a cause and effect relationship that can be measured. And I don't think that the agency standards are optimum, so I look for the Instructors who have a higher standard than that. Some agencies will not even let an instructor elevate the standard, student demonstrates skill, student passes... Not saying who... I don't think I was part of a good OW class, but I don't think the agencies standards were violated, so no reason to report said class.
Sure, agreed. It general you get what you pay for. but when people run promotional offers on black friday and you can get a good quality product at low promotional prices, does it all of a sudden devalue that product and make it less of a quality product? My guess would be; No.. The promotion is to get people through the door and interrest them in other stuff while they are there to buy the highly discounted "quality product" and build a rapport with the consumer to have return business.

As I've explained before, in most cases "those" dive stores that charge $129 actually lose money on classes with the hope of making it up in gear sales.. If the instruction is bad and students have a bad experience, they wont come back for gear.. meaning the dive store will keep on losing money and if you report those instructors, they wont be teaching for that store for a very long time..

Additionally, the continued education fees (like AOW, Rescue, etc.) are ALL on the shoulders of the instructors to promote and teach and they keep 100% of the tuition fees for those continued ed. classes while getting to use the said dive store's classroom and pool facilities FOR FREE! With the understanding of course that an instructor will send continuing education students back to the store for gear sales.

So, in looking at this, it should be pretty clear that its absolutely in the best interest of both the instructor AND the dive store that experience in the Open Water class is a safe and positive one.

Furthermore, saying a store that charges more on face value, offers better quality classes is total BS.. because looking at the pure economics behind this, It usually means that the expensive class fee coverers additional overheads that these $129 classes typically dont have. Other dive stores that charge upwards of $350+, usually includes books, masks, snorkels and fins (Btw - these are usually about $300 worth of "other" stuff they claim are "free" with the class) and plus they have to rent a pool at $350 per hour.. And ALL this overhead is really covered in this "higher quality expensive" fees.. The $129 classes dont include books or gear.. so after you bought those, now the class cost you $400.. So I'm guessing according to this argument, the more gear you buy, the more expensive your class ends up being and therefore the safer and higher quality it will be ? :nutty:

So in actuality that "expensive" class really only nets the dive store maybe $50-$80 max and now the Instructor still needs to be paid for the class.. does that mean they are now getting even worse instruction since only $50-$80 of what they paid goes towards instruction??

Think about Independent instructors that needs to rent pool, have insurance, have classrooms, gear rentals, pay for gas, etc. etc... And since they dont sell gear, all of that must be covered by the tuition.. bigger dive stores make that up in profit form gear sales.. so in plain economic terms; get people through the door with an attractive price on classroom fees and then sell them some gear to make up the overheads and eventually make some profit.

So to me, this whole argument is completely moot and falls flat when you break down the mechanics like this and when people start to say, well "in general" you get what you pay for.. To me It also means that "in general" you dont get what you pay for..

Now the much debated point of agency standards are; "get the skill done and pass" is also absolutely BS.. it again comes down to the instructor and the judgment call he/she makes.. the so called "standards" from any agency doesnt just state the skill should be performed so you can put a tick in a box, but they also CLEARLY state that a student has to "Master" a skill.. not just "perform" it.. NO Agency will take issue with an instructor not passing an unsafe student that is not able to master a life saving skill..

If an instructor lets a student do a mask flood/clear and the student is clearly not comfortable with it and is on the verge of panic and barely gets it done, that student has indeed performed the skill, but have obviously not "mastered" the skill and therefore any reasonably prudent instructor will not let that student pass the skill without additional practice until mastery is achieved..

so again.. the quality of an Open Water or any other class has NOTHING to do with how much the person paid, but EVERYTHING to do with who the instructor is and how that instructor applies his/her judgment.

If you feel instructors pass students without them achieving mastery of a skill or instructors produce unsafe divers, to me, that is a clear violation of Quality Standards and should be reported.. and again, If you have witnessed such events and you dont have the balls to report them, let me know the names and circumstances and I'll be happy to report those instructors on your behalf.

Koos

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"I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party" - Ron White
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LCF
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by LCF »

Jumping back a few posts . . . I agree that an instructor or certified assistant who runs out of gas, or who fails to maintain sufficient reserves to surface a student in need of gas for whatever reason (and if it's because they've run out, shame on the instructor for not monitoring), is reprehensible. But I've had two free-flows in Puget Sound, neither due to poor maintenance and neither with any warning. They empty a 95 in about 90 seconds. So there is a remote possibility of an instructional staff member actually needing some assistance from a student, without being negligent.

I actually dive much larger tanks than I need with classes, simply because I want to have enough gas on my back to get even the most terrified student to the surface safely. I really don't NEED 100 or 130 cubic feet of gas for 45 minutes with an average depth of 20 feet . . .
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
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ktb
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Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by ktb »

ljjames wrote:more often than not, we combined OW1 and OW2 into a 16 dive "northwest diver program"
Wow, I would have loved to have taken a class like this when I first started . . . but then again, I didn't know any better and probably would have thought it was too expensive and time-consuming. When we were looking at scuba classes, we wanted an OW class that was short and sweet and would get us in the water quickly. We needed it to be weekends only because of work schedules, and with both of us taking it, cost was a factor as well. Did we worry about the quality of instruction? To be honest . . . only a little. We had a friend with a lot of experience who would be diving with us when we were done, so we weren't too worried. And we trusted the dive shop to not hire an idiot.

Now, after 2 years and 250+ dives here and in tropical water, I think back to what I was like when I finished OW and it's scary. Don't get me wrong--our instructor wasn't bad. (Although I'm not sure any of us in the class would have been able to help her if something went wrong as we were very focused on getting through the basics.) But I think being a "diver" here requires more than just the basic OW class that that we received and most cert agencies require. I mean really--should anyone be diving in the PNW without knowing how to dive in limited viz, or being able to do basic navigation, or being comfortable going beyond 60 fsw? (And I really like the idea of an OW2 class as opposed to calling it Advanced. THAT'S just a silly term.)

I know this is hypocritical since I didn't do it, and I feel a little like one of those reformed smokers who tells everyone they should quit smoking because they will get lung cancer. But now that I *know* better . . . sigh. I wish everyone who wants to dive here would realize the value of an intensive first class.
Kelly
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