Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

[Waynne Fowler]

i must agree Scott. While some of what has been posted doesn't follow the intent of my question fully, it is significantly associated. While I don't care to get involved in a debate over how people get paid or what their payment structure is, I do find the posters opinions important and interesting.
What I really dig about this site is that, by and large, no one get's their feelings hurt and no one usually intends to hurt others. Folks seem to be able to engage in very contraversial subjects with some detached objectivity.

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You all make some very good points and I do for the most part enter my O/W class dives in much the same fashion that you do Koo's... for that matter I enter every dive with the intent that I may have to rescue myself, in fact... self rescue is always my first line of defense regardless of the skill (or lack thereof) of my teamate/s. I realize too that if a real emergency were to come upon me during an O/W class that my students may take some extra time to figure out that there really is an emergency and I may have to initiate the emergency proceedure myself.... if a student were to see my burst disk or neck o-ring fail the first thing they are gonna do is gawk for a few seconds and wonder WTF is that going on behind waynnes head?
One thing I do try and drill into my students is to be an active participant in the team, if you see something that you've not seen before, or something doesn't seem right...... get involved don't sit back and just see what happens... I tell them if you even 'THINK there MAY be a problem' then THERE IS A PROBLEM... until such time as you KNOW there is not.
It wasn't the stories I've read about students watching instructors drown right in front of them thinking it was some drill demonstration that caused me to start to talk to students about this kind of thing. It was from seeing experienced divers sit by and watch emergencies happen without taking steps. I've watched people stand no more than 20' from 2 kids drowning at Sund Rock. I came across the parking lot cuz these guys had said "oh... I think those 2 are in trouble" yet stand and try to figure out if it really was a problem?????????????? These guys were EMT's/Firefighters with TONS of emergency handling experience... It took about 20 seconds to get across the lot and another minute to get both heads above water and only when I told the EMT's to help did they take the 2 steps into the water to help out. One person was in real trouble and we thought we were losing him for a minute or so... once someone stepped in to DO SOMETHING these guys kicked into gear... I've seen similar things on several occasion from both experienced and new mint's...

I'd never thought about incorporating ascending an unconcious diver into my open water program, it really wouldn't take that long to do and would be a great problem solving skill for the noob's at the very least.... hmmmmm.....

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This is how it works for me.... when someone comes in and signs up for a class.. I sell them a specific # of class and pool sessions along with a specified # of O/W dives... the date and times are set... I present all information within said timeframe. I also provide the dives as expected... if a diver cannont process all the information in the agreed upon time frame or is still lacking in skill at the end of the program and needs more time that is absolutly fine, however, I delivered what was agreed upon.
AFAIK no one sells the actual certification... we sell training... if the training was provided as agreed upon then my obligation has been fulfilled and if they need further education and time to complete the requirements of certification and they expect me to do it I will... for a fair fee. Now if I said come on in you'll be certified for x number of $.. that's a much different story. And if someone only needs a few xtra minutes here and there to get comfy and competent... who cares about the $.. but if it means I have to take hours out of my personal life and add days to the certification process.... I'm not a money monger but I can't give it away either. A simple solution for me is "hay... jump in my next class that has room and do all or part over.... free" and if they still don't get it... jump in the one after that too if it's got room. Again most instructors do not sell certs... we sell time... enough time for the vast majority of people to complete the requirements of certification.... I personally have not had anyone misunderstand this so on those occasions where someone needs more time and can't fit into the other class schedule they've never had a problem paying for additional private class/pool or O/W time.

[ArcticDiver]

I too appreciate this Forum. By and large discussions are civil and the people who get their jollies by rattling cages are absent.

I agree at the basic level that whether a diver, of whatever experience, is able and willing to assist in when a life or property emergency occurs should be a separate matter from how instructors get paid. I'm also confident that regardless of what is said most instructors have enough integrity that they will not certify an unskilled diver.

I'm coming to the conclusion, though, that instructors should have a block in their certification instruction on on business methods and economics. There should never be any need to question whether how and how much an instructor is paid impacts the quality of graduates. That this topic persists tells me instructors don't understand business models, their role in those models and what integrity, and in many cases, contract law requires.

[LCF]

I agree that certification is not sold, instruction is . . . but it is certainly the expectation of people who have paid for a class, that they will end up certified divers. And to deny them that is not, in many cases, going to make them happy (we've had a couple where they were actually RELIEVED).

I know I have an idea of what a well-schooled beginning diver should look like and be able to do, but I have to admit that, at the end of our classes, only the top third in aptitude get there. Most of the others get certified, as long as they are able to get through the skills and as long as their buoyancy control is good enough that we aren't worried they are going to kill themselves on an OW level dive. Getting rid of bicycle kicking and hand use, and training in good posture and good situational awareness, just isn't something one can do with a lot of people in four OW dives in Puget Sound. Bob has the flexibility to add dives to his class, but it's harder to do that when you are working through a shop (and although I don't know anyone who teaches scuba for a shop for the money, I have to admit that at some point, the $50 you get for a student starts to look very thin, if you are doing multiple additional dives with them . . . )

Steve Lewis, in his book, The Six Skills and Other Discussions, has an interesting set of criteria for passing a student from one of his technical classes:

If this student conducts a dive at this level tomorrow or the next day or some time in the very near future, and their buddy becomes incapacitated for some reason or another, could they:
a) make a strong effort to bring that buddy to the surface;
b) while attempting a) could they manage the risks associated with buddy-rescue so that they do not put their own
well-being in jeopardy;
c) know enough to understand when b) is beyond their abilities, and under that circumstance, have sufficient
skills to finish the dive alone.

Although c) might be a bit much to ask from OW students, it seems as though the first two criteria would not be unreasonable for any diver, and I wonder how many of us can say our graduated OW students would meet those criteria?

(And, BTW, Steve's book is a FANTASTIC read, for recreational and technical divers alike. Very thought-provoking.)