Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

This forum is provided for the further edification of our club members seeking to improve their knowledge and diving skills. (recreational diving only)
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

The intent of my prior post wasn't to step on toes or deride anyone else's teaching ... it was to say that the person buying the class needs to manage their expectations. As is the case with most things in life, you generally get what you pay for. If you're shopping for the cheapest class, ask yourself why. If it's because you found a great deal, and know that the class will be taught by a quality instructor, more power to ya ... I'm sure they're out there. On the other hand, if it's because you want the card for as little as you can get away with, then chances are that you'll not be putting a lot of effort into learning ... because the learning is a means to an end (the c-card) as opposed to the end itself. It truly does matter what your priorities are going in.

A great class isn't solely up to the instructor ... every instructor out there wants to believe they teach a great class. Every instructor will also (if they're honest about it) admit that there are classes they feel really good about and others they feel didn't go as well as they'd have liked. Generally speaking, the classes I put the most effort into fall into the latter category, because I'm trying to "push" students who simply aren't working hard enough to reach the level of competence I'm expecting of them.

It's not all about the instructor, or where they teach, or how much they charge, or what agency they teach for ... those are rules of thumb that only offer clues about what to expect. The outcome of the class is as much about you ... the student ... and your willingness to manage your expectations. A great instructor can make a world of difference ... but not without a great student. To use a football analogy, they're just passing the ball ... they can make a perfect pass, but you still have to catch it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
Waynne Fowler
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:57 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Waynne Fowler »

:(

quite a detour

forget i asked.....
Ripper of drysuits, mocker of divers...there are no atheist divers in a mistimed Deception Pass dive. Jeremy
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

Waynne Fowler wrote::(

quite a detour

forget i asked.....
I dunno Waynne ... I think it's connected. Instructors who feel they're diving solo with their students are also setting expectations ... and usually teaching to them.

I believe that students are generally capable of more than many instructors give them credit for ... and we all tend to teach to what we believe are the capabilities of those we're training ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Peter Guy
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:28 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Peter Guy »

Wayne, going back to your original post -- and knowing that I am but a guppy when it comes to teaching scuba diving -- I believe the answer is "Yes, an instructor is (or at least may be) a solo diver when with a student" -- AT TIMES! And I think that is true at all levels of instruction -- or at least it seems to be true for me.

I taught a class a few weeks ago that I thought was going very well -- and then I took the students to Cove 3 for their first open water, cold water, low viz, dive. IT WAS A TRUE CLUSTER! Had I had a heart attack and passed out I'm quite sure my body would have remained on the bottom for hours before any of the students had any idea I wasn't even there (and I'm not sure about my DMs either since they were so focused on the students). I really can't express how bad it was -- and so different from what appeared to the level of confidence and competence three days earlier in the pool.

Four days later, and 5 or 6 dives later, it was a pure joy to have the students jump off the boat into the cold, dark, low viz water at Z's reef and watch them calmly, quietly and competently float down the line, swim gently into the current, stop and look at critters when they wanted, etc. In just a few dives they had become divers, but they weren't on their first dive!

Thinking back to my Cavern class and my buddy and I are doing a lights out, line following drill -- and my buddy gets completely disoriented -- totally disoriented -- as in not knowing up from down. Had the instructor had a problem at that point, especially since we were blind, we wouldn't have known and had he come to my buddy, there would have been no help there. By the end of the class, no problem -- but at the beginning -- AS WE WERE LEARNING AND MAXIMALLY TASK LOADED we weren't any good as buddies for the instructor.

Maybe it just shows my poor attitude as an instructor but I believe that is just the way it is for students. At some point during their training, as we increase their task loading, they cease to be effective buddies and are only capable of helping themselves (if at all). But THAT is why we do the training, isn't it?

I also agree with Kdu -- that mythical "cheap" class seems to be really about the same price as all the other classes once all the costs are included. I don't have a problem with marketing/advertising that gets people to buy the product. We all know what it really costs to run a class and that money is going to come from somewhere. At the same time, most people really don't know they want to do this (scuba dive) and so it may make sense to "seduce" them into giving the sport a try by selective pricing/advertising.
User avatar
Waynne Fowler
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:57 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Waynne Fowler »

yes. I believe they are connected too Bob. However, I didn't intend for folks to get up in arms. I really figured there could be some adult, frank yet non-confrontational conversation without getting peoples feelings hurt.

I didn't mean to insinuate that folks that may feel like they are solo diving with their OW students (yes Lynne you interpreted my meaning correctly) during those first few OW class dives, were somehow 'sub-par' or 'missing something'. I didn't mean to call into question the professionalism of an instructor who may have a problem underwater either. As CapnJ pointed out, there are plenty of problems one could have that would not reflect on a divers expertise and could well be out of their control to even detect prior to it's emergence.

For me this was more to get a feel for how other instructors feel when they are out on those dives, maybe I'm naive but I do have faith that my students would lend assistance if needed, all the while knowing that some will respond with greater fluidity than others but even if it weren't purdy I think they could get it done.

I've heard the 'I'm solo diving' statement several times from a few different instructors and thought to myself 'pfffff, that's sad' but in the last year I've heard it from many more and even read an article somewhere in a dive rag that talked about this very thing.... it got me to thinking "am I deluding myself or what.... maybe I should rethink this" So I posted here with the intent to get some feedback from some of the best in the business. But I sure didn't want to start a thread to get everyone all riled up!
Ripper of drysuits, mocker of divers...there are no atheist divers in a mistimed Deception Pass dive. Jeremy
User avatar
kdupreez
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1724
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:27 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by kdupreez »

Wayne, my apologies for the hijack.. its not personal, but, invariably a thread will end up in the $129 / $99 class debate and I'm usually first in line to set the record straight on that perception.

So to your question.. Do I sometimes feel that when taking a class out, its pretty much a solo dive.. sure I do, but only because I planned the dive that way and choose to view it as a "solo dive". Nothing against the students or their abilities, I would just prefer not to have to plan my contingencies with a student saving my ass, as the primary means of redundancy.

As an instructor you have to plan for any foreseeable emergency and try mitigate that. so for example; If you think that you can not deal with a free flowing regulator at 30', then I suggest you take a pony bottle with you to mitigate the risk of having to rely on a student to help you in that situation.

I'm not saying a student wont be able to help your or even save your life if they had to, I'm just saying that in my opinion we as instructors can mitigate the risk of having to rely on a non certified diver to save our ass on dive 1 in a cold dark murky place by using some common sense and make adjustments to dive plans, depths, gear redundancy options, staff positioning, etc. to at least attempt to have a safe as possible and enjoyable experience for students.

Students divers really mean well and will try their damdest to help in any situation during class, I'm not trying to take away from their abilities or discredit their skills (hell, I taught them those skills!) - I would just prefer to go into the situation with my eyes open and with a clear mindset of "this is a solo dive" and with that mindset take all the necessary precautions and plan the dive accordingly with the end goal of having a safe and enjoyable class.

Incident prevention by risk mitigation is my reasoning behind thinking of class dives as solo dives.

my 2 cents.

.
"I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party" - Ron White
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

Waynne Fowler wrote: maybe I'm naive but I do have faith that my students would lend assistance if needed, all the while knowing that some will respond with greater fluidity than others but even if it weren't purdy I think they could get it done.
That's how I see it as well. I'm sure it wouldn't be pretty ... but I just don't think they'd be as clueless as all that ... after all, they were shown how to do it in the pool, and as part of their checkout dives, they need to show me that they can ... without additional coaching on my part.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
kdupreez
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1724
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:27 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by kdupreez »

Grateful Diver wrote:
Waynne Fowler wrote: maybe I'm naive but I do have faith that my students would lend assistance if needed, all the while knowing that some will respond with greater fluidity than others but even if it weren't purdy I think they could get it done.
That's how I see it as well. I'm sure it wouldn't be pretty ... but I just don't think they'd be as clueless as all that ... after all, they were shown how to do it in the pool, and as part of their checkout dives, they need to show me that they can ... without additional coaching on my part.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Agreed - If they HAD to, they should not have problems in doing so. (I just prefer not to have to rely on it)
"I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party" - Ron White
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by CaptnJack »

There's a really easy way to test all this Waynne. Just go "unconcious" on your next final checkout dive (maybe add an extra dive outside of class dive free for this). Then see what your newly minted students do.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
Paulicarp
Aquanaut
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:08 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Paulicarp »

CaptnJack wrote:There's a really easy way to test all this Waynne. Just go "unconcious" on your next final checkout dive (maybe add an extra dive outside of class dive free for this). Then see what your newly minted students do.
sounds like a new twist on critical skills training. Instead of the "blue gloves of death" you can call it the "blue lips of death"
User avatar
lamont
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:00 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by lamont »

kdupreez wrote: I happen to teach through a store that offers these $129 OW classes and I dare anyone on this board to join one of my OW classes and once you have gone through that class with me, you welcome to your opinion of how bad of an education that $129 bought you..
I was a graduate of a $99 two-weekend course at UW Sports Seattle, back in 2003. A friend of mine dragged me to the course as her buddy, I didn't realize I had any interest in diving at the time, so didn't have any idea about shopping around.

The instruction was actually about as good as it could be given the time. The class size was actually fairly small (6 students, one instructor and DM). We met all the standards. The instructors were not bad, and they were neutral, in roughly proper trim and frog kicking (which looked *weeeeeeird* at the time).

I felt pretty comfortable in the water, but came out of it realizing that I didn't know anything, and a few months later was out diving in a BP/W and long hose and practicing s-drills after absorbing just about everything I could find on the internet and fleeing to Dee Eye Arrr.

Definitely not sure I could have donated gas to another diver in a real emergency coming out of that class. I know I didn't feel very comfortable with doing a reg sweep to find my regulator if it got kicked out of my mouth (A few dives later when I got a face full of jetfin and my reg popped out of my mouth and I easily went to my necklaced backup I was sold that I was going down the right path....)

So that's my datapoint...
User avatar
ArcticDiver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by ArcticDiver »

It seems from the posts to this thread answers haven't changed all that much from previous discussions on this topic. Summary: It all depends.

I've seen students on their Open Water checkouts, admitedly NAUI+Gorilla, do as good as anyone could expect from any other diver. On the other hand I've seen an instructor kneeling with his students around him struggle with an out of air situation. Ultimately he bolted for the surface with him neither attempting to get air from any of the students, nor any of them attempting to donate a regulator to him.

Too bad that old chestnut relating course cost to instruction quality can't be put to bed. An instructor in any field should have enough integrity to teach to the max regardless of the effect on his rice bowl. If he ain't happy with its' size then he should have enough integrity to just not agree to do the job. If there is an instructor who does not have that integrity and who is teaching that is a failure of the certiification system that goes beyond economics.
The only box you have to think outside of is the one you build around yourself.
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

ArcticDiver wrote: Too bad that old chestnut relating course cost to instruction quality can't be put to bed. An instructor in any field should have enough integrity to teach to the max regardless of the effect on his rice bowl. If he ain't happy with its' size then he should have enough integrity to just not agree to do the job. If there is an instructor who does not have that integrity and who is teaching that is a failure of the certiification system that goes beyond economics.
... so do you think instructors should donate extra time if students need it?

When I was taking my instructor training, my Course Director told me that a student will only value your time if you do ... and if a student needs more time, they should pay for it. At the time, I thought he was selling me something smelly and I rejected the idea. I structured my classes to take as long as was needed to take to meet the class objectives. And for most classes, it worked out. But from time to time I get students who will goof off, not show up, or call and cancel a class at the last minute ... because it didn't cost them anything to reschedule. That has prompted me to start charging rescheduling fees ... which I'll waive if I think there's a legitimate reason to do so. But it keeps the slackers honest.

I don't think you or anyone else has the right to question an instructor's integrity for wanting to get paid for their time. It's a job ... and like any job, one should expect to be paid a fair wage for their services.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
John Rawlings
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5781
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:00 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by John Rawlings »

Grateful Diver wrote: I don't think you or anyone else has the right to question an instructor's integrity for wanting to get paid for their time. It's a job ... and like any job, one should expect to be paid a fair wage for their services.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Geez, Bob....I don't think that is what he's saying at all. I would ask you to read what he said again and reconsider your reaction. What I took from what he said is that an instructor should do their best no matter what they are being paid. A sentiment with which I happen to agree.

- John
“Don’t pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he’ll just kill you.”

Image

http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com
http://johnrawlings.smugmug.com/
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

John Rawlings wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote: I don't think you or anyone else has the right to question an instructor's integrity for wanting to get paid for their time. It's a job ... and like any job, one should expect to be paid a fair wage for their services.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Geez, Bob....I don't think that is what he's saying at all. I would ask you to read what he said again and reconsider your reaction. What I took from what he said is that an instructor should do their best no matter what they are being paid. A sentiment with which I happen to agree.

- John
As do I ... but let's not lose sight of where this side conversation began ... with the comment ...

I for one think there should be a higher standard, and a bit more time spent with an instructor before students are cut loose.

... and my response that ...

More time with an instructor is always desireable. But setting some expectations here ... an instructor's time isn't, or shouldn't be, free.

Whatever amount of effort you put into it, you can only teach so much in a couple of weeks ... or a couple of week-ends, as the case may be. I don't doubt that, under ideal conditions and with the right students you can train quality in that time frame. But conditions aren't always ideal, and students aren't always quick studies. Then you are faced with a choice ... lengthen the class, or turn the students loose before they're ready. If you choose to lengthen the class, then you should be paid for your time. It's business ... it has nothing to do with integrity.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
ArcticDiver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by ArcticDiver »

Bob; you jumped to a conclusion that I didn't mean, nor, on review, did I say. Let me expand so we can get on the same page.

There are three ways, at least, to sell an instructor's time and effort. One way is Per Hour. Another is Per Course. A third is a modification of the second; Per Course with Explicit Outcome(i.e. Certification).

Sell a course for a flat fee and either an explicit or implicit expectation the student will successfully complete for that fee and, yes, the instructor is ethically obligated to put in whatever effort is required even if that results in a low per hour wage. On the other hand the course could be sold on the basis that the instructor's rate is so much per hour, the completion usually takes a certain number of hours, but variances may be required and billing will be made accordingly. Here the instructor is ethically obligated to not waste the student's money but gets paid for every hour.

If an instructor is not happy working for a flat fee regardless of actual hours, ethically, they should not agree to the arrangement.

From a business perspective scuba instructors are no diferent than any other tradesman. Tradesmen often need to bid jobs on a flat fee basis. That puts a premium on job estimating. If they complete the job as planned they make money. If ahead of estimate they make more money. If they need more time they make less money. Or, in extreme situations they go under.
The only box you have to think outside of is the one you build around yourself.
User avatar
ArcticDiver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by ArcticDiver »

I'm making this a separate post because it is useful to separate elements of this discussion.

In this discussion and others of like it there are elements that I don't think are likely to be resolved very soon. One is the difference in motivation and income expectations between instructors. Some are just seeking to pay for their own diving. Some are trying to use iinstruction to build some other aspect of their business. Some are trying to support themselves like any other business.

But, this is moving way off topic. To me, whether any diver, newly certified or old hand, can or will help in an emergency depends more on the individual, their skills and temperment than most anything else.
The only box you have to think outside of is the one you build around yourself.
User avatar
LCF
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by LCF »

It seems to me that there are really more or less two kinds of situations underwater: problems where you are annoyed or inconvenienced, but totally in control and confident of the outcome, and problems where you are overwhelmed or incapacitated, and dependent on someone else to take control and manage the situation.

Short of a medical emergency, I have a hard time imagining something that could happen to me in 35 feet of water in our local training sites that would qualify as situation #2. I can imagine a few issues that would land in the #1 category, where whatever is happening (eg. freeflow) is an irritating inconvenience, but something I can handle, either by getting out of Dodge myself, or by borrowing some gas from a student and taking the student up with me. I'd be in control; they'd be spare gas with a BC attached :)

If I were to develop something like immersion pulmonary edema and become incapable of self-rescue, I do not know that I would be very successful in conveying that to our first day OW students, let alone trust that they would be able to understand the need to get me to the surface, and carry that task out. My assessment of the risk of that happening is that it is low enough that I'm not really worried about it.

The whole question of ending student competence in rescue skills is a good one, but I think rather beyond the scope of the original question that Wayne posed. Some classes go into more rescue skills with OW students than others; PADI leaves much of it to Rescue, which is a later class. I do think that during the period in one's diving life where simply executing the necessary parts of a dive competently is a large challenge (as it is for some people -- like me -- for quite some time), rescuing another diver is going to be a huge hurdle, especially if you're a long way from shore or the surface. Which is part of why new OW divers are supposed to keep their dives shallow and simple!
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

ArcticDiver wrote:Bob; you jumped to a conclusion that I didn't mean, nor, on review, did I say. Let me expand so we can get on the same page.

There are three ways, at least, to sell an instructor's time and effort. One way is Per Hour. Another is Per Course. A third is a modification of the second; Per Course with Explicit Outcome(i.e. Certification).

Sell a course for a flat fee and either an explicit or implicit expectation the student will successfully complete for that fee and, yes, the instructor is ethically obligated to put in whatever effort is required even if that results in a low per hour wage. On the other hand the course could be sold on the basis that the instructor's rate is so much per hour, the completion usually takes a certain number of hours, but variances may be required and billing will be made accordingly. Here the instructor is ethically obligated to not waste the student's money but gets paid for every hour.

If an instructor is not happy working for a flat fee regardless of actual hours, ethically, they should not agree to the arrangement.

From a business perspective scuba instructors are no diferent than any other tradesman. Tradesmen often need to bid jobs on a flat fee basis. That puts a premium on job estimating. If they complete the job as planned they make money. If ahead of estimate they make more money. If they need more time they make less money. Or, in extreme situations they go under.
Hmmm ... depends on whether you're selling training or certification. I don't think the trademan analogy holds in this case ... because training is not delivering a product, it's delivering a service that depends as much on the responses of the buyer as that of the seller. A better analogy would be signing up for a class at your local community college ... what happens if you don't meet the class objectives by the end of the semester? Let's say you don't pass the final exam. Is the instructor ethically obligated to continue working with you until you receive a passing grade? Or are they ethically obligated to deliver the course curriculum ... and it is up to you to either pass or fail based on your effort? And if you need additional time, is the professor ethically obligated to continue working with you without any additional fee? Or is the expectation that you will have to pay for additional effort?

Learning is not a product or a commodity you can pull off a shelf ... you're not buying it ... you're earning it. The successful outcome of a class is not guaranteed ... the delivery of the class curriculum is. Certification requires that the student receive that service and in return demonstrate a proficiency that measures up to the standards for a successful completion.

When I took my initial GUE-F class, I didn't pass ... and it cost me an additional fee to retake the class in order to get the certification. Same for my cave training ... I paid for training up through Full Cave, and although I did receive the training, my performance didn't meet the standards set by the instructor ... I received instead an Apprentice rating, which is what I had up to that point earned. When I went back to complete the training for Full Cave, it cost me another $450. I considered that fair ... the instructor had delivered the services we agreed to during the initial training. My failure to perform up to the standards he set for that class had nothing to do with his integrity ... nor his ability to teach. It had everything to do with my own abilities to learn the material within the agreed-upon boundaries of the class.

An instructor is ethically obligated to deliver the curriculum they promised when you signed up and paid for the class. Successful completion depends on how well you ... the student ... are able to master the material once it's delivered. Certification is not the instructor's obligation ... it's yours. This probably explains why I have confidence in my students ... because they and I both know that they won't get the card until I'm satisfied that they've got the skills they came to me looking for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Grateful Diver »

LCF wrote:The whole question of ending student competence in rescue skills is a good one, but I think rather beyond the scope of the original question that Wayne posed. Some classes go into more rescue skills with OW students than others; PADI leaves much of it to Rescue, which is a later class. I do think that during the period in one's diving life where simply executing the necessary parts of a dive competently is a large challenge (as it is for some people -- like me -- for quite some time), rescuing another diver is going to be a huge hurdle, especially if you're a long way from shore or the surface. Which is part of why new OW divers are supposed to keep their dives shallow and simple!
Both my initial YMCA OW class and the NAUI OW classes I currently teach require the student to pull an unconscious diver from the bottom at 20 feet, bring them to the surface, and tow them to shore. I do it in every class ... and although I recognize that there's a big difference between training and the real thing, I think it gives the students adequate basic knowledge to affect a rescue should it become necessary.

Looking back on your skills and confidence level when I first met you, I can agree that you probably wouldn't have been able to do it ... then again, you wouldn't have gotten out of my OW class without better skills in the first place. As you went on to demonstrate ... lack of aptitude wasn't the issue.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
ArcticDiver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by ArcticDiver »

Grateful Diver wrote:
ArcticDiver wrote:Bob; you jumped to a conclusion that I didn't mean, nor, on review, did I say. Let me expand so we can get on the same page.

There are three ways, at least, to sell an instructor's time and effort. One way is Per Hour. Another is Per Course. A third is a modification of the second; Per Course with Explicit Outcome(i.e. Certification).

Sell a course for a flat fee and either an explicit or implicit expectation the student will successfully complete for that fee and, yes, the instructor is ethically obligated to put in whatever effort is required even if that results in a low per hour wage. On the other hand the course could be sold on the basis that the instructor's rate is so much per hour, the completion usually takes a certain number of hours, but variances may be required and billing will be made accordingly. Here the instructor is ethically obligated to not waste the student's money but gets paid for every hour.

If an instructor is not happy working for a flat fee regardless of actual hours, ethically, they should not agree to the arrangement.

From a business perspective scuba instructors are no diferent than any other tradesman. Tradesmen often need to bid jobs on a flat fee basis. That puts a premium on job estimating. If they complete the job as planned they make money. If ahead of estimate they make more money. If they need more time they make less money. Or, in extreme situations they go under.
Hmmm ... depends on whether you're selling training or certification. I don't think the trademan analogy holds in this case ... because training is not delivering a product, it's delivering a service that depends as much on the responses of the buyer as that of the seller. A better analogy would be signing up for a class at your local community college ... what happens if you don't meet the class objectives by the end of the semester? Let's say you don't pass the final exam. Is the instructor ethically obligated to continue working with you until you receive a passing grade? Or are they ethically obligated to deliver the course curriculum ... and it is up to you to either pass or fail based on your effort? And if you need additional time, is the professor ethically obligated to continue working with you without any additional fee? Or is the expectation that you will have to pay for additional effort?

Learning is not a product or a commodity you can pull off a shelf ... you're not buying it ... you're earning it. The successful outcome of a class is not guaranteed ... the delivery of the class curriculum is. Certification requires that the student receive that service and in return demonstrate a proficiency that measures up to the standards for a successful completion.

When I took my initial GUE-F class, I didn't pass ... and it cost me an additional fee to retake the class in order to get the certification. Same for my cave training ... I paid for training up through Full Cave, and although I did receive the training, my performance didn't meet the standards set by the instructor ... I received instead an Apprentice rating, which is what I had up to that point earned. When I went back to complete the training for Full Cave, it cost me another $450. I considered that fair ... the instructor had delivered the services we agreed to during the initial training. My failure to perform up to the standards he set for that class had nothing to do with his integrity ... nor his ability to teach. It had everything to do with my own abilities to learn the material within the agreed-upon boundaries of the class.

An instructor is ethically obligated to deliver the curriculum they promised when you signed up and paid for the class. Successful completion depends on how well you ... the student ... are able to master the material once it's delivered. Certification is not the instructor's obligation ... it's yours. This probably explains why I have confidence in my students ... because they and I both know that they won't get the card until I'm satisfied that they've got the skills they came to me looking for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
We've got two topics going here I think. Must be an internet forum.

One of the problems in the scuba industry is not clearly seeing that from a business perspective scuba is no different than most any other. If my painter bid the interior paint and stain job on my house on a flat fee basis, he did, he is obligated to do whatever to give me a satisfactory conclusion. If, however, I don't do my part in site preparation, access and control then any additional cost is on me. If I am teaching a university level course for a flat fee I am obligated to put in whatever effort is needed within the stated course description to give the student every opportunity to succeed. On the other hand if I'm teaching someone to fly an airplane everyone involved knows the training is being sold on a per hour basis with a "normal" but not guaranteed total cost. Additional instruction is extra, and everyone knows that.

So, it all depends on how the instruction is marketed. In scuba it also depends to a very great degree on instructor integrity since operational supervision is very scant.

If a scuba instructor wants to buy into a dive shop business plan that charges a fixed fee for a particular course that instructor is ethically obligated to put in whatever effort is needed. On the other hand, if the instructor wants to sell themselves on a per hour basis and pass on the dive shop's plan that is OK too. Either way it is up to the instructor to fulfill whatever agreement exists.


As this pertains to the original topic: As I posted, whether someone else can or will help in case of an emergency, major or minor, depends as much on the individual's personality and other personal factors on that day as anything else. Newbies can, and do, perform perfectly adequately just like moer experienced people.
The only box you have to think outside of is the one you build around yourself.
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by CaptnJack »

Help help I've fallen and can't find the dead horse smilie
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
kdupreez
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1724
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:27 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by kdupreez »

Image
"I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party" - Ron White
User avatar
Waynne Fowler
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:57 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by Waynne Fowler »

Image

damnit Koo's.... ya beat me too it. :smt064
Ripper of drysuits, mocker of divers...there are no atheist divers in a mistimed Deception Pass dive. Jeremy
User avatar
scottsax
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2102
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:14 am

Re: Transitioning from Student to Dive Buddy.

Post by scottsax »

Well, this may be discussed to death on internet forums, but it's still a fascinating conversation to have. Even though I'm JAFO, :popcorn: I'm still enjoying the passionate and respectful exchange of ideas.

Carry on!
I'm going to look like a moose on rollerskates. -airsix
... my Mom caught me fenestrating once. -lavachickie
And I get so tired of fainting and peeing all over myself when the hammer falls on an empty chamber! -Nailer

Want to know where I'm performing? Check out my Facebook fan page!
Post Reply