Tank inspection classes

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Dusty2
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Tank inspection classes

Post by Dusty2 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:25 pm

We are trying to get a vis inspection class together for the 28th of FEB at Hoodsport and dive. They need a minimum of 3 students to run the class so I thought I'd list it here. I'm sure we must have plenty of people that have enough tanks to justify the cost. Here is the info. Lets make this happen guys. It's a one day class so no big logistics issue

Rich here is the information I have for the Edmonds Technical Diving Service Visual Cylinder Inspection class they are setting up at Hoodsport for the 28th of February or possibly March 1st.

I believe the cost is 275.00 but check on line.

http://www.etds.org

cylindertraining@aol.com

360-618-3096
360-601-8993

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fmerkel
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by fmerkel » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:29 pm

What I've wondered, is how do you get your tanks filled at shops after you've done the VIP?
Why should they believe you?
How are they going to know you know what you are doing?
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by loanwolf » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:33 pm

fmerkel wrote:What I've wondered, is how do you get your tanks filled at shops after you've done the VIP?
Why should they believe you?
How are they going to know you know what you are doing?


You are given a certification and inspectors number that is recognized buy the DOT that you have to put on each VIP decal you do to make them valid.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Norris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:35 pm

Good question as Evergreen Dive Services wont honor VIPS from AAA in everett. Although they have the stickers and are licensed visual inspectors Evergreen says "they dont VIP for "SCUBA" so we will not honor those, or fill after they VIP them.
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loanwolf
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by loanwolf » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:40 pm

Norris wrote:Good question as Evergreen Dive Services wont honor VIPS from AAA in everett. Although they have the stickers and are licensed visual inspectors Evergreen says "they dont VIP for "SCUBA" so we will not honor those, or fill after they VIP them.


Really? they are certified so buy all rights Arron cannot deny it. He is opening himself up for a law suit if someone wants to get pissy about it and a possible fine from the DOT.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Norris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:48 pm

loanwolf wrote:
Norris wrote:Good question as Evergreen Dive Services wont honor VIPS from AAA in everett. Although they have the stickers and are licensed visual inspectors Evergreen says "they dont VIP for "SCUBA" so we will not honor those, or fill after they VIP them.


Really? they are certified so buy all rights Arron cannot deny it. He is opening himself up for a law suit if someone wants to get pissy about it and a possible fine from the DOT.


I was curious about that. Its a shame as that place offered very affordable VIP for tanks. Same with Hydro,
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Dusty2 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:55 pm

You receive a cert card and inspectors cert number then you can order stickers online and your good to go. All the shops really care is that you are then liable and not them. I haven't heard of a shop refusing a fill as long as you have the cert from an approved agency.

Sounds like a personal grudge because they were under selling him. If you are a duly certified inspector of a DOT accredited agency he has no grounds to refuse you.

At any rate we don't want to get a pissing match started about various shops policy. The class will certify you to do your own tanks and MOST shops will recognize your cert.

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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by loanwolf » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:22 pm

It is a great class damn well worth taking.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Norris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:30 pm

I didnt see this getting anywhere near a "pissing" match. I just remember thinking about being turned down for a fill and wondering if I took a class and VIP'd my own tanks, would I have any ground to stand on should a shop not accept "my" stickers?
Some people are little more versed on this than I, so my concern (above) is the only thing which keeps me from taking this class sometime. Been meaning to research, and suddenly was reminded that I still don't know.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by CaptnJack » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:55 pm

Certifications to VIP classes are not required to be accepted by anyone. Its the shop's compressor and they are perfectly within their rights to refuse to fill tanks VIPed or hydroed by anyone they decide. There's no requirement in law prohibiting tank or VIP discrimination.

There are no "accredited" VIP teachers or agencies. Despite requiring them, DOT doesn't regulate visuals and CGA is pretty non-commital about what constitutes a qualified visual inspector.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by fmerkel » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:59 pm

That's kind of what I thought. It's the shop (personnel & structure) that ends up taking the risk. I don't know as there are a whole mess of folks that do this so I think you could gain acceptance on a face basis after a talk with the shop owner.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Dusty2 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:21 pm

Norris wrote:I didnt see this getting anywhere near a "pissing" match. I just remember thinking about being turned down for a fill and wondering if I took a class and VIP'd my own tanks, would I have any ground to stand on should a shop not accept "my" stickers?
Some people are little more versed on this than I, so my concern (above) is the only thing which keeps me from taking this class sometime. Been meaning to research, and suddenly was reminded that I still don't know.


Not saying it was just trying to keep it from getting there and save the mods some grief.
Like thet say, Head em off at the pass. You of all people should know how fast things can go south around here.

I'm just trying to get a couple more guys so we can have the class. If it's not for you then that's fine. Like capt. Said it all comes down to the shop owner whether he or not he fills your tanks. It IS his business. For the most part I haven't run into to many who would take that line and I for sure wouldn't come back if they did. Fills don't make money but they do bring in customers who might buy something and it's rather foolish to drive away business.

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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Waynne Fowler » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:05 pm

loanwolf wrote:Really? they are certified so buy all rights Arron cannot deny it. He is opening himself up for a law suit if someone wants to get pissy about it and a possible fine from the DOT.


any shop can refuse to fill any tank for any reason they see fit. Don't like the color... NO FILL FOR YOU!... tank a little to 'cylinderically" built?..... NO FILL FO YOU EITHER!!!

but do the class is you have the time and coin... Don's very imformative and you will always learn something new... as an FYI.. my thought is if you haven't attended a class in a couple years and don't do that many vip's.. you should think about sitting in again if you are going to continue doing your own vips... missing something could end up ruining someones day.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Norris » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:52 pm

Dusty2 wrote:
Norris wrote:I didnt see this getting anywhere near a "pissing" match. I just remember thinking about being turned down for a fill and wondering if I took a class and VIP'd my own tanks, would I have any ground to stand on should a shop not accept "my" stickers?
Some people are little more versed on this than I, so my concern (above) is the only thing which keeps me from taking this class sometime. Been meaning to research, and suddenly was reminded that I still don't know.


Not saying it was just trying to keep it from getting there and save the mods some grief.
Like thet say, Head em off at the pass. You of all people should know how fast things can go south around here.

I'm just trying to get a couple more guys so we can have the class. If it's not for you then that's fine. Like capt. Said it all comes down to the shop owner whether he or not he fills your tanks. It IS his business. For the most part I haven't run into to many who would take that line and I for sure wouldn't come back if they did. Fills don't make money but they do bring in customers who might buy something and it's rather foolish to drive away business.


My apologies if it felt as though I was trying to hinder your gathering. I was most certainly not, and good luck Dusty.

Thank you for the answer that I was looking for Capt. Mind you that Evergreen stated they would not honor due to some tanks coming from that place that did not meet EDS standards. I can understand them taking the initiative by doing this. I also understand that anyone who fills has the choice or option to refuse fills for any reason.

I trust that your average shop will certainly honor a VIP from a trained person until tanks come in consistantly falling short of that LDS standards.

My question has been answered and all is well...carry on.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by loanwolf » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:08 pm

CaptnJack wrote:Certifications to VIP classes are not required to be accepted by anyone. Its the shop's compressor and they are perfectly within their rights to refuse to fill tanks VIPed or hydroed by anyone they decide. There's no requirement in law prohibiting tank or VIP discrimination.

There are no "accredited" VIP teachers or agencies. Despite requiring them, DOT doesn't regulate visuals and CGA is pretty non-commital about what constitutes a qualified visual inspector.



PSI is certified compliant and you have to do recurring training under "Code of Federal Regulations Title 49 172.704(c) (ii) (2-4)" Mark at PSI works with the government writing the codes.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Desert Diver » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:09 pm

I guess I'm really dumb finding things on the internet but where are the DOT regulations on annual visual inspections?

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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by camerone » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:20 pm

Most people forget that there's no license anywhere or rules that say you have to VIP anything. It's a self regulating bit of the dive industry that may or may not be complete BS. You should make up your own opinions when you've had enough experience to form one.

That said, the industry likes to see it as it's a warm fuzzy to them and their insurance company.

Fwiw, the PSI class is very good. I can't comment on these instructors but when I took my class a few years ago, I learned a lot. I have never had a problem getting fills with a PSI sticker (which you may buy from them if you are a current inspector). Anywhere I have been has had no issue.

In order to stay in PSI's good graces, you need to repeat training every three years. Otherwise, they cut you off from stickers, and if they look up your number online, your stickers should be rejected by the dive shops. I've yet to meet a shop that takes the time to do that.

So... Unless you're a tech diver with a lot of tanks, it basically doesn't pay to do the class. It's a whole lot of $15 VIPs in three years to make up that $275. Good learnings though, and interesting material.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Desert Diver » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:44 pm

Ahh! That may be why in 50 years of looking at welding cylinders I've never seen a VIP sticker. Thanks.

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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Jeff Pack » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:27 am

camerone wrote:
So... Unless you're a bubble blowing tech diver with a lot of tanks, it basically doesn't pay to do the class. It's a whole lot of $15 VIPs in three years to make up that $275. Good learnings though, and interesting material.


fixed that for you... :)
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- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by loanwolf » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:24 am

camerone wrote:Most people forget that there's no license anywhere or rules that say you have to VIP anything. It's a self regulating bit of the dive industry that may or may not be complete BS. You should make up your own opinions when you've had enough experience to form one.

That said, the industry likes to see it as it's a warm fuzzy to them and their insurance company.

Fwiw, the PSI class is very good. I can't comment on these instructors but when I took my class a few years ago, I learned a lot. I have never had a problem getting fills with a PSI sticker (which you may buy from them if you are a current inspector). Anywhere I have been has had no issue.

In order to stay in PSI's good graces, you need to repeat training every three years. Otherwise, they cut you off from stickers, and if they look up your number online, your stickers should be rejected by the dive shops. I've yet to meet a shop that takes the time to do that.

So... Unless you're a tech diver with a lot of tanks, it basically doesn't pay to do the class. It's a whole lot of $15 VIPs in three years to make up that $275. Good learnings though, and interesting material.


Cam dont forget that if you are doing your own tanks it not really a big deal. But part of the class is paperwork for the CFR's if you are inspecting tanks for others (especial if you are being paid for a service) as you are accepting the responsibility of the tank under the CFR's. and you are supposed to keep those records in case something happens to cover your ass. This is the same for a compressor. if you are charging for your air then you are subject to the CFR's and have to follow the guide lines. If you are not then you do not have to be complaint with the CFR's. Even most shops if a inspector were to come in would be facing some pretty heavy fines as most do not know what all the requirements are today. We got a very large eye opener on this when setting up the commercial dive company and working with inspectors to get complaint. At the same time talking with them about what would be needed for a dive shop that was for sale at the time we were looking at buying. for the fill station and dealing with the tanks it was the same as the commercial operation today.

I know the company that makes the EDDI machines has been pushing for a new category of SCUBA inspection. That requires you to do a EDDI test on tanks instead of optional. But to my knowledge the DOT has not bitten on that as of yet.

It makes a lot of since if you are a tech diver and have a lot of tanks or are part of a large group. You can tumble, O2 clean, and inspect your tanks yourself and that is a lot more expensive than just a vip.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by loanwolf » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:40 am

Desert Diver wrote:Ahh! That may be why in 50 years of looking at welding cylinders I've never seen a VIP sticker. Thanks.



Welding tanks like bank tanks do not get immersed so they do not need inspected yearly. The heavy lift ROV has 2 HP bank tanks on it and they have to be VIP'd every year. They are the same tanks as the breathing bank in the mechanical space that does not have to be VIP'd just hydrod every 10yrs and part of hydro testing is a visual inspection.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Jeff Pack » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:41 am

glad I have my own compressor :)
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- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.

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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Desert Diver » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:55 am

loanwolf wrote:
Desert Diver wrote:Ahh! That may be why in 50 years of looking at welding cylinders I've never seen a VIP sticker. Thanks.



Welding tanks like bank tanks do not get immersed so they do not need inspected yearly. The heavy lift ROV has 2 HP bank tanks on it and they have to be VIP'd every year. They are the same tanks as the breathing bank in the mechanical space that does not have to be VIP'd just hydrod every 10yrs and part of hydro testing is a visual inspection.


That and the fact that there is no legal requirement for a VIP

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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by CaptnJack » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:19 pm

Desert Diver wrote:That and the fact that there is no legal requirement for a VIP


There is a legal requirement, but only at the hydro. Welding tanks get visualed every hydro and the stamp serves as evidence. The annual ones (and the sticker) are just "industry standard" for scuba. And a good idea honestly, a little water in any tank will destroy it in <5yrs.

I VIP (and fill) my own. I think VIP classes are fun and worthwhile. I don't think you should take it to "save money". That just makes you come across as a cheapsake to the fill station and honestly I can see why they might question a cheapsake's visual skills, familiarity, practice, and if you have adequate tools for the job or are just slapping stickers on. Its penny wise and pound foolish to disenfranchise yourself from your LDS over VIPs.

IMHO
Take Dusty's class, if your shop doesn't mind and you buy the tools, VIP your own. If not you learned something anyway -which comes in super handy when buying used tanks off Craigslist and other such non-VIP stuff.
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Re: Tank inspection classes

Post by Desert Diver » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:37 pm

I suppose I'm flogging a dead horse, and I believe every shop has a right to whatever requirements they want when filling tanks, just like my shop has every right to refuse to put air in a tire we think may be questionable, but I get tired of PSI and others claiming Federal law requires an annual VIP and training every 3 years for inspectors. This misinformation (does that sound better than lie?) makes it seem that maybe the whole thing is a scam rather then a necessity. They should just say they want it that way or they won't fill, rather than blame it on the government. I'm with Jeff P. in that I'm glad I've got my own compressor.

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