Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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av8ngreg
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by av8ngreg »

spatman wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:
spatman wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote:Dan down in Vancouver (Seven Seas Scuba) is about the only "local" instructor around here who does.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I would all the shop to confirm that Dan is still teaching. I haven't sen him at the shop in a very long time.
That would be a shame. Based on what I knew of him, he was a good instructor ...

... Bob (Grateful DIver)
Seems like Dan has stopped teaching, according to a source at the shop.
Yeah, I called the shop awhile ago and they took my information and said they would pass it along. Haven't heard from him as of yet. Sad to hear a good instructor is no longer teaching.
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Nwbrewer
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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av8ngreg wrote:Thanks NWBrewer. I need to work on getting my Nomad setup first, but should be up for diving it in a couple weeks. Waiting on a couple things I ordered in that I was told would make it more efficient to dive so guess it will just have to hang on the rack all pretty and dry until they come in. I will defo take you up on that offer as soon as I get it somewhat dialed in. Are you familiar with the Apeks Tek3 doubles reg set? I was curious as to how they would work on a SM with all the ports on the one side and being opposite with a right and left handed 1st stage. If they aren't ideal, what regs do you use, and do you recommend ones with the 5th IM port on the bottom for ~10" QD inflator hoses?

Edit- I already have the Tek3 set for my BM BP/W, that is why I ask about those. Not opposed to getting other regs though if they won't really work.

Since you have them, try them out. I don't really see any reason why they would not work, but it may be hard to get the hoses routed the way that you want them. Are you planning to run one short hose and one long, or 2x long hoses? I use some Apeks DST's but it's because that's what I had.
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av8ngreg
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by av8ngreg »

I was worried about the hose routing mostly. I am going to just use the Tek3 set I have for my BM, and went ahead and got a set of HOG DS1 regs for the sidemount rig. I am going to run a 7 foot, and a 40" both on swivels. I haven't decided yet if I am going to be a wussy and throw in an Argon bottle on my back. I do hate being cold. :-P
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by CaptnJack »

An al6 for argon is alot more hassle in sidemount than it is in backmount. Forget about an al13, I tried - was huge.
Better dry gloves, hood and undergarment will be more effective than argon, assuming you don't require a seperate inflation bottle because of helium bottom gas.
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spatman
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by spatman »

CaptnJack wrote:An al6 for argon is alot more hassle in sidemount than it is in backmount. Forget about an al13, I tried - was huge.
Better dry gloves, hood and undergarment will be more effective than argon, assuming you don't require a seperate inflation bottle because of helium bottom gas.
How did you rig the a13?
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by CaptnJack »

Same way I tried the AL6, horizontal across my butt plate. Valve on the left side. Its just FAT anywhere you put it. And its rather heavy so it flops around alot on land doesn't really want to stay in one place on land or UW. I only used it for one demo dive, it wasn't worth screwing with for me.
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GearHead
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by GearHead »

Since the discussion now includes gear configuration options, I thought I'd join in and share what I've learned so far.

I decided on an xDeep Stealth sidemount rig, as it looked like a flexible system for both warm and cold water. I took the TDI Sidemount course combined w/ Advanced Nitrox while on vacation in Thailand in February. The rig was a breeze to set up and I easily achieved horizontal trim using just a couple 1kg weights in the upper back pockets. Here I was using a pair of Alu 80s, with a third slung stage/deco cylinder. My suit was an O'Neill 2mm shorty which got compressed to about 1mm over the course of a few 40m dives.

Back here, I've adjusted the harness for my thicker drysuit + undergarments and added extra weight pouches. I have a pair of Neutral Alu 80s and another pair of Faber FX100s. So far, I've just used the steel tanks, but they were also easy to trim out. The main difference I've noticed is the extra cylinder weight, of course. It's still possible to swing one of the tanks forward, but it needs to be held closer to the body. I think the Neutral 80s will be easier to maneuver for most dives.

Since I already had a Scubapro Mk25/S600/G250V set, I added a second mk25 with a new set of hoses for the sidemount configuration. At this point I have the S600 with a 5' hose on my right tank, and the G250V on a 29" hose on the left tank. (I found the 26" hose tended to pull my bungied reg around to the side of my neck.) Both inflator hoses are 9" routed up from the center port on the 1st stage swivels. These lengths seem to work just right for me. (I'm 6' - 1" & 200 lbs.) While non-swivel 1st stages work fine for stage & deco bottles, they are more challenging to use for the main cylinders.

Anyway, I'm glad to see there are at least a few divers around here exploring sidemount. Perhaps it would be fun to meet somewhere for a dive and compare setups.

-James
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by CaptnJack »

Does the Xdeep have a place to put an argon bottle?
SM is about the only useful place for neutral 80s! Glad you found a good use for them.
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av8ngreg
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by av8ngreg »

I have the Nomad XT which has the weight plate that snugs up next to the soft plate, and also has 2 upper and lower D ring sorta things. They are kinda mounted around where the tank straps would be for a single. I had planned on mounting my battery pack for my can light on the lower rings horizontally, because the light switch is on the lighthead so don't really need to have it accessable. I have a Faber HP steel FX15 tank that is only slightly bigger than an AL6, so was thinking of using that for an Argon bottle. Hadn't done any measuring, but figured I could run it vertical similiar to a single tank on my back. Guess that is the whole fun in new tows is figuring out what works and doesn't. I don't use argon now, but I start getting cold towards the end of my longer dives, and don't want to keep adding on undergarments, because with fluff, comes lead. UGGHHH!!! Figure that maybe a negative bottle, with something that keeps me warmer, might just be a fair trade off for losing a couple pounds of lead. Hopefully can start getting it all put together Saturday, and hopefully take advantage of some low tides on Sunday and get it somewhat dialed in.
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GearHead
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by GearHead »

Does the Xdeep have a place to put an argon bottle?
I think it might, depending on how much you're willing to improvise. The central weight pouch that goes down the back has a number of attachment possibilities. I've already used it to attach the battery canister for my Green Force light. An Al6 might also tuck alongside the upper part using a pair of hoseclamps and a strip of webbing that could be captured by the weight containment system. Depending on where you place the BC, however, the valve might end up underneath. Since the BC is just held in place by heavy bungies, I don't think this would be a problem, just something to be aware of.

I'm working on this, as well as attaching a can light to the upper part of the harness. The traditional butt mount location for the light requires a longer cord than I have available. I'm planning for an upcoming trip to Port Hardy, and I'd like to have the option for Argon as well as one of my HID lights.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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GearHead wrote: I'm working on this, as well as attaching a can light to the upper part of the harness. The traditional butt mount location for the light requires a longer cord than I have available. I'm planning for an upcoming trip to Port Hardy, and I'd like to have the option for Argon as well as one of my HID lights.
Replacing the cord with a longer one is pretty easy and cheap. A too long cord is annoying though, so best just to have dedicated sidemount and non-sidemount primary lights. Or what I have is a single canister but a longer E/O pigtail on a second HID slug. But then I have to switch the canister mounts when I dive backmount.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by CaptnJack »

av8ngreg wrote:I have the Nomad XT which has the weight plate that snugs up next to the soft plate, and also has 2 upper and lower D ring sorta things. They are kinda mounted around where the tank straps would be for a single. I had planned on mounting my battery pack for my can light on the lower rings horizontally, because the light switch is on the lighthead so don't really need to have it accessable. I have a Faber HP steel FX15 tank that is only slightly bigger than an AL6, so was thinking of using that for an Argon bottle. Hadn't done any measuring, but figured I could run it vertical similiar to a single tank on my back. Guess that is the whole fun in new tows is figuring out what works and doesn't. I don't use argon now, but I start getting cold towards the end of my longer dives, and don't want to keep adding on undergarments, because with fluff, comes lead. UGGHHH!!! Figure that maybe a negative bottle, with something that keeps me warmer, might just be a fair trade off for losing a couple pounds of lead. Hopefully can start getting it all put together Saturday, and hopefully take advantage of some low tides on Sunday and get it somewhat dialed in.
How much lead do you carry? I don't really dive SM in salt water but carry 23lbs with steel 100s in cold water caves. 17lbs on the harness up high on my back and a 6lb weightbelt.

Mount the argon horizontally somewhere at waist height or below so you can access the valve. I doubt you will be "warmer" with argon but it might delay the point at which you feel significantly chilled.
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spatman
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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CaptnJack wrote:Same way I tried the AL6, horizontal across my butt plate. Valve on the left side. Its just FAT anywhere you put it. And its rather heavy so it flops around alot on land doesn't really want to stay in one place on land or UW. I only used it for one demo dive, it wasn't worth screwing with for me.
I rigged my al6 vertically down the right ride of my back, with the valve down. It wasn't even noticeable when it was there. I'm going to try the same with an al14 I'm picking up soon.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by CaptnJack »

spatman wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:Same way I tried the AL6, horizontal across my butt plate. Valve on the left side. Its just FAT anywhere you put it. And its rather heavy so it flops around alot on land doesn't really want to stay in one place on land or UW. I only used it for one demo dive, it wasn't worth screwing with for me.
I rigged my al6 vertically down the right ride of my back, with the valve down. It wasn't even noticeable when it was there. I'm going to try the same with an al14 I'm picking up soon.
That would probably be fine with an AL6 (which I didn't try) but wouldnt work for me with a stage (my 1st stage goes on the top left and 2nd stage goes on the top right and additional stages underneath or on a leash). It mostly just pushed the wing in all sorts of annoying ways the more gas I added. I only tried it in the garage and decided it wasn't worth diving it like that.

Who's making AL14s? Last I heard the 2015psi version was discontinued by Luxfer.
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spatman
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by spatman »

CaptnJack wrote:
spatman wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:Same way I tried the AL6, horizontal across my butt plate. Valve on the left side. Its just FAT anywhere you put it. And its rather heavy so it flops around alot on land doesn't really want to stay in one place on land or UW. I only used it for one demo dive, it wasn't worth screwing with for me.
I rigged my al6 vertically down the right ride of my back, with the valve down. It wasn't even noticeable when it was there. I'm going to try the same with an al14 I'm picking up soon.
That would probably be fine with an AL6 (which I didn't try) but wouldnt work for me with a stage (my 1st stage goes on the top left and 2nd stage goes on the top right and additional stages underneath or on a leash). It mostly just pushed the wing in all sorts of annoying ways the more gas I added. I only tried it in the garage and decided it wasn't worth diving it like that.

Who's making AL14s? Last I heard the 2015psi version was discontinued by Luxfer.
Al13? It's the argon bottle John R was selling. I still need to pick it up from him. I haven't rigged more than 1 deco/stage bottle, and that one gets slung just like back mount.
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by av8ngreg »

My backplate is 6lbs, and I usually dive with 8lbs on each side. Then depending on if I have my can on or not, I usually throw in a 1lb in my trim pocket to even out the weight. That is for my trilam, and usually have to add about 4 lbs if I am diving with my compressed neoprene suit.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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spatman wrote: Al13? It's the argon bottle John R was selling. I still need to pick it up from him. I haven't rigged more than 1 deco/stage bottle, and that one gets slung just like back mount.
Oh roger, yes probably a 13cf

You are underslinging al40s as deco bottles. I don't really have to deal with those since my al40 O2 bottle has always been dropped a short ways inside the cave. Al80 stage bottles customarily go on top of the main SM tanks. When I tried to rig my 13 along the back it rode on top of the wing right where the stage bottle wanted to ride. So the 80 wasn't stable and pushed the 13 down into the wing's expansion area between me and the SM tank. And the 80 rocked back and forth on top of it too.

av8ngreg wrote:My backplate is 6lbs, and I usually dive with 8lbs on each side. Then depending on if I have my can on or not, I usually throw in a 1lb in my trim pocket to even out the weight. That is for my trilam, and usually have to add about 4 lbs if I am diving with my compressed neoprene suit.
Less than me. The weezle extreme+ under a DUI cf200 takes a butt load of lead to sink. I'm generally warm though, especially when I use my special wintertime hood with no zipper.

I wouldn't plan on being substantially warmer just from argon. A better (fresh uncompressed) hood, and better undies help alot more than argon ever did for me.
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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I don't have anything as heavy as your Weezle as of yet. I just have a USIA Exo2 and usually wear UnderArmor under that. I am skinny, so get cold easy. I wasn't really expecting Argon to make a huge difference, just enough to not be shivering at the 1,500PSI point on a single. Again, I am skinny, so the "real estate" on me is at a premium and by adding a bulkier undergarment, makes it that much less freedom I have to reach around all the nooks and crannies that I can stick stuff. Currently I can reach around and set a bottle between my doubles if I am horizontal while I get my bag open if need be. I don't really want to lose that freedom with heavy undergarments and more lead.
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spatman
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by spatman »

The argon won't make you warmer, but it will delay the onset of the cold a bit.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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I'm not exactly naturally well insulated either... The amount of undergarments really has no bearing on mobility per se - assuming your suit is large enough for them to fit underneath and they are sized right. Obviously if you add 2 layers of the same size the outer one will be a bit snug and start to restrict mobility. The weezle for instance smushes to nothing in places like the inside of your elbow. So it just needs to be big enough to not be pulled taut over your shoulders for instance. Pretty easy to check while your trying things on. Other undregarments like the older style 400gm DUIs can be retrictive via bulk.

If you are getting cold at 1500psi in a single that's way too little insulation IMHO.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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spatman wrote:The argon won't make you warmer, but it will delay the onset of the cold a bit.
This has been my experience but its not by more than 5 or 10mins max. getting argon fills can be a pita and certainly adds cost.
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av8ngreg
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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I have a HP15 that I would use if I do go the argon route, so fills wouldn't be too much of an issue. I could get a crap load of dives off one fill, so wouldn't need to deal with that headache much. I tend to not really put out alot of exertion while under the water and that is part of my problem why I get cold. I maybe will have to look into bulking up my undergarments some, but would prefer to try and keep lead down to a minimum. I hate having to carry an extra chunk of lead just to sink my layers, cause that is more I have to pack around and find a place for. Diving is my quiet and no talking zen time, but I am lazy and don't want to work hard at it. :-P
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CaptnJack
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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Not having much gas in your suit is not helping!

Lead is easy and a helluva lot cheaper than routine argon use. Also warmer. For me the difference between frozen and do-able is about 2lbs and the difference between do-able and decent is another 1 lb. So 3lbs more than my ultra minimalist weighting.

For reference with a single hp100 in salt water I have a total of 38lbs on me. 5lb backplate, 10lbs on cam bands, 23lb belt. With this weighting I can do 75mins in 45F later winter water without being "cold" in a cf200, weezle extreme+, 12mm hood and dry gloves. I'm 5'9" and about 145lbs.
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av8ngreg
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

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Don't laugh at me, but when I say skinny, I mean SKINNY! I am 6', and weigh in at a whopping 130. My dive buddies are mostly half and half on the use of argon. Some swear by it when on doubles, and some say even on tri-mix they just have their inflation bottle filled with air. I just don't have much tolerance for extra lead because of my lack of places to put it. I don't much like weight belts because I have no meat over my bones and it makes for a very uncomfortable dive and 2 or 3 days after. I haven't felt the need to dink with argon in the past, mainly because it seemed like more work than it was worth, but was considering it for SM only because I can have the tank out of the way. But if it is indeed as much of a PITA as it sounds on a SM, then probably just gonna scrap that idea too. I have a couple hundred pounds of lead already, so that isn't a problem, but I tend to try everything else before wanting to put more on my BP/W. Thanks again for your thoughts and experience with the different setups and weighting.
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Re: Looking for a good sidemount instructor

Post by GearHead »

True. Lead = air = warmth. If you're feeling shrink-wrapped at the end of a dive, just 2 lbs extra will help.

This time of year I'm using a Lavacore full suit under an Arctic full suit with light merino T-shirt and shorts for the base. My socks are always two layers of merino wool. Difference in weight carried relative to summer is about 6 lbs.
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