I got bent (NHZ)

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dwashbur
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by dwashbur »

You've gotten some good info here, and I'm gonna have to spend some time reading those articles that were linked. my first thought reading your story was, "I'm seeing an AWFUL lot of caffeine here," but you already noted that. Thank you for sharing your story so others can learn. It takes some pretty good stones to put yourself out there like that.

All that said, it's also true that sometimes sh*t just happens. My wife took a PE hit after a 23 minute dive to 25 feet at Titlow a few years ago. She hadn't been exerting herself, she wasn't overtired, she didn't have any of the factors that would point to a risk of pulmonary edema. It just happened. I was shore support that day, and when she came up I heard her coughing and spitting as she and her buddy swam the short distance in to shore. We had just gotten our brand-new-to-us oxygen tank filled the day before, and she got to be the first one to use it. A trip to the ER and several doses of Lasix later and she was okay. But to this day nobody has any idea why it happened in the first place.

Again, thanks for sharing, and thank God you're all right!
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Tangfish »

First off let me say that I am very glad that you made it out of the water safely to tell the story.

Next, I want to thank you like many others here already have for being willing to share your story. Too many divers are ashamed of sharing the most potentially valuable "learning experiences" that we all eventually accumulate as a natural part of diving. DCS types of experiences are some of the hardest to come by secondhand. So, thank you.

Many people smarter than me have already pointed out many good things. The one thing that popped out at me while reading your story was the bobbing up and down in shallow water. Another one of our members here, John Rawlings, has a well documented DCS hit that involved bobbing up and down during the safety stop, followed by physical exertion beyond what is typical, following a recreational type of dive. I think you might find his story insightful. Better yet, maybe he will share it with us in person again, one of these days.

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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by CaptnJack »

Mateo1147 wrote:
CaptnJack wrote: Haldane!
Seriously as far as I know all of the Oceanic computers have a pretty aggressive "neo-Haldane" model which gives no credit for deeper stops/off gassing. A Suunto would have had MUCH longer 2nd dive stop times, probably close to 25mins which is about double the Oceanic.
I noticed this on a dive at TTN to the bottle field. I was crossing 45 feet on ascent looking at critters and the computer rolled on one more minute of deco. I thought to myself seriously? No credit yet? I didn't start getting any credit until we reached the eel grass at 15-20'. That was a first dive and the second was to the junkyard and all was well.
Yeah I honestly don't know the differences between the default Oceanic model and the "DSAT" model. I suspect they are fairly similar. At least on my old oceanic it started adding deco time at 10ft and you got zero credit for anything deeper than 14ft IIRC.

With nitrox it doesn't have to be black and white, lots of us use nitrox to extend bottom times a little bit and be a bit further away from NDLs at the same time. For instance for a 70ft dive the NDL on air is about 35mins. On 32% about 70mins. Your personal, "NDL" might be 55 or 60mins. Longer bottom time but not right up against the EANx NDL either.

At least personally, all time above 40ft on 32% "doesn't count" as bottom time at all. I don't dive air very much but I would not count dive time about 30ft on air either.

Ps I took a month off after my chamber ride and I'm generally pretty conservative, a little less bottom time is cheap compared to the hassles.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Mateo1147 »

Now that the commentary on this thread appears to have run it's course I would like to say thank you to all the members that participated in this discussion. I received support and plenty of information on how to keep this from happening again in the future. I would also like to recognize everyone that posted on this thread for being sensitive about the topic and respectful in your comments and questions. It was a hard decision to make the details of this accident public on the board but I am glad that I did.

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Wagon173
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Wagon173 »

I'm not too familiar with your computer but my buddy had an oceanic that was extremely aggressive compared to my suunto. I'm no tech diver either but during my master course my instructor taught me that if I ever break my time or depth limit or my computer throws a mandatory deco that I should ascend to about half of my max depth for a few minutes and then burn up every bit of remaining gas on my safety stop. I lug a pony even on semi shallow dives so the couple times I've been in an iffy situation I had plenty of spare gas. Glad you're okay though. I watched a girl get bent on a 10 minute dive to 120 fsw. I think primarily its how well you plan, prep and take care of yourself pre dive but secondarily there seems to be a large luck factor.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by _RAGNAR_ »

Personally I've been diving 32% on air tables in the PNW. IMO in cold water it's the safe thing to do.

No amount of extra bottom time is worth my health, and just because you're not getting a hit doesn't mean you're not causing yourself damage. Damage that will accumulate over time.

Those dives probably would have worked out fine in warm water, but I believe you add up cold water, current, shore diving, etc and it's obvious PNW diving can bend you if you're running to the edge of the tables.

Others have covered all the rest.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by ohopdiver »

Was letting go of the ascent line to prevent the yoyo stop not an option?
I have a strap for ascent line rest stops in high surge areas like Neah Bay.
It's about 10 feet long and clips to me and to the ascent line.
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kdupreez
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by kdupreez »

Wagon173 wrote:I'm not too familiar with your computer but my buddy had an oceanic that was extremely aggressive compared to my suunto. I'm no tech diver either but during my master course my instructor taught me that if I ever break my time or depth limit or my computer throws a mandatory deco that I should ascend to about half of my max depth for a few minutes and then burn up every bit of remaining gas on my safety stop. I lug a pony even on semi shallow dives so the couple times I've been in an iffy situation I had plenty of spare gas. Glad you're okay though. I watched a girl get bent on a 10 minute dive to 120 fsw. I think primarily its how well you plan, prep and take care of yourself pre dive but secondarily there seems to be a large luck factor.

120 for 10min on air is actually a deco dive.. you have about 5-6min of deco on a dive like that.

so depending on what her ascent profile was, of she did not do a slow (10fpm from half depth) and about 5-6min deco at 20ft, she was riding a very agressive gradient.
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CaptnJack
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by CaptnJack »

kdupreez wrote:
Wagon173 wrote:I'm not too familiar with your computer but my buddy had an oceanic that was extremely aggressive compared to my suunto. I'm no tech diver either but during my master course my instructor taught me that if I ever break my time or depth limit or my computer throws a mandatory deco that I should ascend to about half of my max depth for a few minutes and then burn up every bit of remaining gas on my safety stop. I lug a pony even on semi shallow dives so the couple times I've been in an iffy situation I had plenty of spare gas. Glad you're okay though. I watched a girl get bent on a 10 minute dive to 120 fsw. I think primarily its how well you plan, prep and take care of yourself pre dive but secondarily there seems to be a large luck factor.

120 for 10min on air is actually a deco dive.. you have about 5-6min of deco on a dive like that.

so depending on what her ascent profile was, of she did not do a slow (10fpm from half depth) and about 5-6min deco at 20ft, she was riding a very agressive gradient.
120 for 10min on air is the "no deco" limit on my oceanic computer - at least on dive 1. Seems like a rather pointless bounce to me, but it is what it is. The oceanic algorithm is about the most aggressive one widely marketed.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Mateo1147 »

ohopdiver wrote:Was letting go of the ascent line to prevent the yoyo stop not an option?
I have a strap for ascent line rest stops in high surge areas like Neah Bay.
It's about 10 feet long and clips to me and to the ascent line.
It wasn't really an option. There was enough current running that I would have had to send up my SMB and have Bill chase me down when everyone was back on board. I can see where using a spool to clip off to the buoy line and playing out ten feet or so could make for a much more stable stop depth. Good idea. Thanks!
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by loanwolf »

ohopdiver wrote:Was letting go of the ascent line to prevent the yoyo stop not an option?
I have a strap for ascent line rest stops in high surge areas like Neah Bay.
It's about 10 feet long and clips to me and to the ascent line.
In the open ocean when we have high surge our last stop is at 30' to stay out of the surge and when in areas like California were you have a serious thermocline at 30' to stay in the cold water. Have gotten heat exhaustion before trying to deco in the warmer water.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by pdx225 »

As a new diver with 7 dives under my belt, this scared the sh*t out of me. But good info, thank you to the OP for sharing and everyone else that contributed. This type of knowledge is always welcome.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Joshua Smith »

pdx225 wrote:As a new diver with 7 dives under my belt, this scared the sh*t out of me. But good info, thank you to the OP for sharing and everyone else that contributed. This type of knowledge is always welcome.
DCS is pretty uncommon. DO keep learning how to improve your skills- especially ascents, buoyancy, navigation, and gas management- but don't worry overly much about DCS. It's pretty common for new divers to do a benign, shallow profile, but freak out because their elbow aches a little on the drive home. 99 times out of 100- or more- the ache is from loading gear. And, if you dive with much frequency- take a serious look at the Diver's Alert Network insurance- one of the best deals out there, IMO.
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Tom Nic
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Tom Nic »

+1 on the DAN insurance. For the small cost it is probably the most important piece of dive gear you can get.

Oh, and I get being scared reading this stuff. As a newer diver I would get claustrophobic reading some of the "Diver Down" dive accidents, but pushed through it because I new I needed to be very aware of other folk's screw-ups in order to learn from them.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by pdx225 »

Thanks, I've had a few peeps mention DAN, will look into it next week.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by pdx225 »

Tom Nic wrote:+1 on the DAN insurance. For the small cost it is probably the most important piece of dive gear you can get.

Oh, and I get being scared reading this stuff. As a newer diver I would get claustrophobic reading some of the "Diver Down" dive accidents, but pushed through it because I new I needed to be very aware of other folk's screw-ups in order to learn from them.
Good point!
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Mateo1147 »

After my personal insurance covered everything they were going to I sent a copy of all my EOB's and hospital bills to DAN and they sent me back a check for $1350. I was still out of pocket about $400 but I really am thankful for having DAN available for telephone medical consults and the insurance on top of my personal. The other thing to think about with DAN is that if you end up taking a dive vacation your personal insurance goes out the window. :eek:
Grand total of the charges submitted to my insurance for my little mishap was just North of $13,000.
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Jeff Pack
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Jeff Pack »

13k, wow....
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

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CaptnJack
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by CaptnJack »

Jeff Pack wrote:13k, wow....
Those are billed charges, not what VM actually gets which is more like 8k. But nevertheless its really a really expensive peice of equipment, and needs maintenance so it doesn't blow up in a giant oxygen fire (which is fatal to everyone around), you got on call staff getting paid to wait for "that call" etc.

13k in billed charges is actually pretty cheap considering how long the treatment actually lasts (~6 hrs). Compare that to spending 30 mins in an MRI and getting a 4K bill.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by ArcticDiver »

Mateo1147 wrote:After my personal insurance covered everything they were going to I sent a copy of all my EOB's and hospital bills to DAN and they sent me back a check for $1350. I was still out of pocket about $400 but I really am thankful for having DAN available for telephone medical consults and the insurance on top of my personal. The other thing to think about with DAN is that if you end up taking a dive vacation your personal insurance goes out the window. :eek:
Grand total of the charges submitted to my insurance for my little mishap was just North of $13,000.
Are you sure that was what was sent to your insurance? Or, was that what was sent to you, with an annotation that your insurance had been billed?

Lots of politics, negotiation, profit goals, market bearing analysis, etc. goes into medical billing. Just about as much as goes into how insurance companies set their premiums. Just a tidbit. Ever think of how all these hospitals and other medical facilities are still in business after all these years of "losing money"?

I've been following this thread. Thanks for starting and keeping it going. Very educational.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Mateo1147 »

I was able to see both numbers on my EOB's. Lets say one flight in the chamber for instance. They would have billed me $8,200 walking in off the street and paying cash. But Premera Blue Cross got a discount and was only charged $5,900! Almost every charge related to this had some form of discount or negotiated amount for the insurer.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by RenaB »

Sorry, I am new to the boards, but have some chemical background that I would like to project here about the amount of N2 in the system. First, there are some factors to dehydration that I wanted to mention. I am a medical technologist, which is a fancy term for I spin and run your blood. When people come into the ER with dehydration the liquid part of their blood is seriously decreased. Most people also don't realize that blood is a hetergeneous mixture. Red cells float around in liquid salt water and albumin (a protein). So nitrogen goes into the liquid portion and "dissolves" and circulates. If there is less liquid portion due to dehydration there is less liquid to dissolve the nitrogen. (sort of like trying to pour too much salt into not enough water) Now there is likely some binding to hemoglobin that would make this analogy a little different, but I think you get the idea.

My point is this you drink coffee. This is actually a diarhetic, makes you remove more water from your kidneys. Then you don't drink enough water for the day, ON top of the fact that you they remove all the water from the air in the tanks to keep them from corosion. So normal respiration has some water exchange in your lungs, which you are now not getting during a dive. All of these water minuses, along with the strong workout after, I believe would make sense that you overloaded your system with nitrogen.

They recommend to counter the diaretic effects of the coffee you should drink the same volume of water as coffee. And make sure you drink the recommended amount per day. And an extra amount for the dry air breathing. You can see that lots of water is better than just some.

That's where I think the problem arose. Did they hydrate you while you were in the chamber? I don't know if you ever mentioned it?

Thanks for sharing. The information about the insurance and cost was very interesting.
Rena

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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by Tangfish »

This is a most excellent education on what's happening in the bloodstream as it relates to diving and N2. Thank you so much and welcome to NWDC!
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by LCF »

Unfortunately, some of this is misinformation. Studies have been done of the balance between hydration and diuresis for coffee and tea, and the upshot is that you are taking in enough volume to make up for the diuretic effect. These drinks don't produce net diuresis.

In addition, the role of dehydration in the generation of DCS is far from clear . . . There really are no solid data supporting hydration status as a MAJOR contributor to risk.

There is no question that it is preferable to remain well hydrated, especially in the tropics, where water loss from sweat can be considerable. But to point to dehydration as the primary cause of a DCS event is fairly shaky . . . there are probably a half dozen other factors playing greater roles.
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Re: I got bent (NHZ)

Post by RenaB »

I was solely basing my statements off what I know to be solubility principles, and what I have personally observed from samples in the lab I work in. If nitrogen is being dissolved into the liquid portion of your blood and you have less of it, due to dehydration, it's coming out of solution quicker than somewhere with more as they surface. That is a chemical fact, if the statement is true that it's dissolved in your blood then the latter is true.

As for the dehydration of caffeine, I stated that it is a recommendation to drink water. I guess it would depend on how much water is in your coffee. I know it dehydrates me.

As for whether other factors play a role, I am sure they did. I would argue that this was a large factor.
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