Missing Diver in Tacoma (Nov 2006)

Navigator · Post by **Navigator** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:40 pm

Whoever thinks about diving down to 100 feet on AL80,
Please,....... Consult "Grateful Diver" first.

And remember the last accident at Cove2.
:naka:

Scubak · Post by **Scubak** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:42 am

Well said Nav...

sparky · Post by **sparky** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:38 am

I think Peper bringds up a verry good point

When was the last time you realy gave your dive budy a second check I know for me I had been a little lax in this but NO MORE!!!

It is realy to bad the news hounds dont bother to get the terms used by divers right before they report on Diving

they do it for every thing except diving

Sparky

Sergeant Pepper · Post by **Sergeant Pepper** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:43 pm

I realize some may say that dive accidents are not usually caused by omitting a simple buddy check, but that's still no reason not to do one. I heard of a dive accident where a guy drowned because he didn't have his inflator hooked up to his dry suit. These are the things that definitely can be avoided, and may have been prevented with a simple check. This particular accident sounds like more than buddy checking, but insufficient planning... still something a buddy should be able to step in and halt.

DiverDown · Post by **DiverDown** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:07 pm

My o2 psi, Buddy check or not. A dive to 200 fsw is a serious dive! On twins or not, If it was really the case that these folks planned a dive to that depth. It is obvious that they were not experienced. I am not saying that the out come was deserved, but unavoidable.. Today I called a dive with a rescue class. The vis a the Muk was 3 ft at the best. Now I would have dived it, only cause I am familiar with the dive site. But in a class setting no way! Calling a dive is a no brainer, I dont feel comfortable I dont dive.. If folks that I am with dont like it ,To bad its my life! The last thing I want my son to know is that " we never found his body"...

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:49 pm

DiverDown wrote:My o2 psi, Buddy check or not. A dive to 200 fsw is a serious dive! On twins or not, If it was really the case that these folks planned a dive to that depth. It is obvious that they were not experienced. I am not saying that the out come was deserved, but unavoidable.. Today I called a dive with a rescue class. The vis a the Muk was 3 ft at the best. Now I would have dived it, only cause I am familiar with the dive site. But in a class setting no way! Calling a dive is a no brainer, I dont feel comfortable I dont dive.. If folks that I am with dont like it ,To bad its my life! The last thing I want my son to know is that " we never found his body"...

Don't worry, dude. We'll find your body.

Nah, I shouldn't kid around in a thread about some guy who died, but this was apparently a really, really, ill advised, and frankly, just plain stupid accident- I even hesitate to call it an accident.

When you:

1) dive to 200 feet to beat a personal depth record; without any training to dive to that depth

2) do it on an AL 80

3) At night

4) in Super crappy vis

is it still an "accident?"

You really only get to screw up like this one time in our sport. I don't think any BWRAF check could have saved this guy. Please don't dive outside your training and experience, everyone.

Sasquatch · Post by **Sasquatch** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:55 pm

Has there been any solid information or first hand knowledge of how this came to be?

Could it really have been a PLANNED 200' night dive on an AL80 in crappy viz?

Anyone?

Cera · Post by **Cera** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:11 pm

Sergeant Pepper wrote:I realize some may say that dive accidents are not usually caused by omitting a simple buddy check, but that's still no reason not to do one. I heard of a dive accident where a guy drowned because he didn't have his inflator hooked up to his dry suit. These are the things that definitely can be avoided, and may have been prevented with a simple check. This particular accident sounds like more than buddy checking, but insufficient planning... still something a buddy should be able to step in and halt.

I think it would be difficult to drown because your inflator hose wasn't hooked to you... was he diving with out a bladder and only a backplate? Was it from a boat?? That just doens't make sense. Of course it is probable, but still doesn't make sense. Wierd..

Cera · Post by **Cera** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:12 pm

I agree with sasquach... if someone knows the details I wish they would share, so we could stop speculating.....

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:36 pm

Well, without one of the people who was on the dive posting here, we ain't getting confirmation- but I have heard the same story from 2 different sources, both of whom I consider reliable. So that's what I'm going with.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:12 am

Very sad - I didn't know anything about this until this morning.

Saturday I dove Golden Gardens and thumbed the second dive at 10fsw when my suit was getting really tight and I realized I couldn't inflate (my inflator hose had come disconnected). We surfaced, fixed the problem, did ANOTHER full buddy check, and then headed to the wreck. Conditions were less than optimal but it was well worth the extra couple minutes to ensure everything was in order.

If anyone hears more concrete information on this tragedy, please post it.

Sergeant Pepper · Post by **Sergeant Pepper** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:28 am

Cera wrote:
Sergeant Pepper wrote:I realize some may say that dive accidents are not usually caused by omitting a simple buddy check, but that's still no reason not to do one. I heard of a dive accident where a guy drowned because he didn't have his inflator hooked up to his dry suit. These are the things that definitely can be avoided, and may have been prevented with a simple check. This particular accident sounds like more than buddy checking, but insufficient planning... still something a buddy should be able to step in and halt.
I think it would be difficult to drown because your inflator hose wasn't hooked to you... was he diving with out a bladder and only a backplate? Was it from a boat?? That just doens't make sense. Of course it is probable, but still doesn't make sense. Wierd..

From a boat.

Six Gill · Post by **Six Gill** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:03 am

This is an extremely tragic event as any diving accident is. My hope is that we all take the time to possibly learn from this and be safe when diving. In addition, we must be sympathetic to all those involved on this dive. They will be changed forever by this incident and we need to be supportive and avoid any speculation. You never know until you are there in any type of real "rescue" scenario; and it does change you as a diver.

For those of you who have not taken any classes beyond your basic open water; get yourself in front of an instructor and learn how to dive deep safely; take the stress and rescue or the rescue course. We should always be learning in this sport. "When you're green you're growing, when you're ripe you rot".

Be safe out there!!

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:32 am

Six Gill wrote: For those of you who have not taken any classes beyond your basic open water; get yourself in front of an instructor and learn how to dive deep safely; take the stress and rescue or the rescue course. We should always be learning in this sport. "When you're green you're growing, when you're ripe you rot".

Be safe out there!!

... and THIS instructor will tell you that recreationally-trained divers should not be planning or executing dives beyond recreational depth limits. A deep specialty isn't going to train you to do dives to 150 or 200 feet on Lobster Shop Wall. You need additional training, skills, and equipment for those kind of dives.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:40 am

Sergeant Pepper wrote:I realize some may say that dive accidents are not usually caused by omitting a simple buddy check, but that's still no reason not to do one. I heard of a dive accident where a guy drowned because he didn't have his inflator hooked up to his dry suit. These are the things that definitely can be avoided, and may have been prevented with a simple check. This particular accident sounds like more than buddy checking, but insufficient planning... still something a buddy should be able to step in and halt.

The drysuit inflator story is more likely an urban myth. You will probably come out of it with nothing worse than a painful body hickey ... although intense suit squeeze can also inhibit your mobility. But you will still be breathing, and will still be able to abort the dive ... and as you come shallower the suit squeeze will more or less alleviate itself.

Without knowing the particulars of the diving incident that spawned this thread, there's no way to tell what went wrong. But for most of us, it's simple enough to say that doing a dive to 200 feet on recreational gear is a bad plan. Losing your dive buddy indicates poor buddy skills. And unless he was diving a helium mix ... which I very much doubt ... narcosis at that depth could've played a large role in the execution of the dive.

Simply put, people have no business going that deep without proper training, gear, and expertise to understand the risks, and make contingencies for what to do if things go wrong. You can't "wing it" at 200 feet ... fatality sets in far too quickly.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Six Gill · Post by **Six Gill** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:46 am

This instructor will tell you the same Bob. Recreational dive limits of 130 feet are actually too deep for some if they tend to get narc'd easily and if the tank size does not suffice. I once had another instructor offer to team teach with me on my advanced course; when I told him I did a minimum of 3 deep dives of the 10 I do, he said "what's the big deal about deep diving?". Needless to say we never did teach together.

John Rawlings · Post by **John Rawlings** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:10 pm

At this point I don't think that there is enough information out there to even have a decent discussion. Some of the posts I've seen here and elsewhere seem to be a mistaken combination of the tragedy in 2003 and the tragedy that just occurred this weekend. In reading all that I have regarding the incident I have only grown more and more confused as old "facts" seem to be getting blended with the new "facts".

The present circumstances (even the location) seem SO similar to the 2003 dive/death that I suspect we're hearing "hybrid" explanations born of the two events.

The absolute bottom line is that if you desire to dive deep then take the time and effort to get the proper training to do so.....once you have that training maintain your skill level.....know what you will need to do for self-rescue in case of an emergency situation and practice those skills regularly.....and always use the proper gear for the task at hand.

There is NO reason for a recreational diver to even THINK about diving to 200 feet unless it is in immediate conjunction with the words, "someday I want to have the skills and gear to do that".

- John

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:13 pm

Here is the story first hand from the buddy of the gentleman who had past away.

he came into underwater sports on saturday to tell the manager that his family would be picking up the truck the victim left at the shop.

The young man came into underwater sports fill air on thursday, he said he was doing a deep dive so to give a good fill. So the manager gave a good fill, meaning not shorting air, or a hot fill.

anyway he came back in saturday to pick up the truck and here is his story of what they did and the dive plan was. they went to lobster shop wall to beat their personal goal of 180 feet deep, the profile was to dive to 200 fsw and then surface. they got split up at 160 and both divers failed to surface. the diver who past away was diving on an Al 80, not the proper gear or training. The buddy didn't want to get into it but he was not real open about it either. but that is the plan to beat a personal goal and both failed to return. may all of us learn from it. and lets put this thread to rest as a lesson learned and leave the subject alone. It is not a joke and it was a familiar face so being a local bellevue diver.

like our friend John says don't dive what you are not trained for.

now that everyone knows what happened all should be satisfied and we can let this post rest.

Maverick

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:20 pm

Maverick wrote:
may all of us learn from it. and lets put this thread to rest as a lesson learned and leave the subject alone.

... and what's to learn? There are now two bodies down at the bottom of that wall with AL80's strapped on their backs. What didn't get learned from the first one?

I knew Chad ... he was a good man. His death just tears me up. But let's be honest. There are a lot of people out there shooting for "personal best" records ... some of them are reading this board. Most don't have half a clue what they're attempting to do, nor give much of a thought to the risks they're taking. And for what? Bragging rights?

It's a waste ... tragic, senseless, and totally preventable.

And the people who need the most to "learn" something from it won't even be listening ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:22 pm

And the people who need the most to "learn" something from it won't even be listening ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well said Bob.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:03 pm

Grateful Diver wrote:
It's a waste ... tragic, senseless, and totally preventable.

And the people who need the most to "learn" something from it won't even be listening ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree Bob, this is totally tragic and senseless.

As an aside, at times like this I am very grateful to have the wisdom and voices of people like you, BDub, and the other senior members of this dive community that are willing to mentor newer divers that want to dive safely. I am also grateful to be surrounded by safety-minded dive buddies that have taught me some important lessons.

This may be of little comfort to you (I know how hard you take these accidents) but your efforts to educate us make a huge difference. I imagine your gas planning seminars are going to grow even more popular after this accident, and I bet those seminars have already prevented accidents that we will thankfully never have to hear about.

Unfortunately, usually it is only the close friends of those that are making bad decisions that can stop them from doing senseless things for no good reasons. Even then, some people will proceed in a manner that makes others shake their heads, with no one being able to stop them. I'm speculating, but it sounds like this is a tragic example of such behavior. You are beating yourself up on this one, maybe because you knew him, more likely because you have a strong sense of duty in terms of building safer divers and educating our dive community.

You do that, and to a greater degree than you could reasonably be expected to do. In addition to you, I know there are others on this board and in the community that stand ready to help newer divers, and all of you that take time to teach newer divers how to dive safely should be commended for building a safer dive community.

My thoughts and prayers go out to Chad's family.

John Rawlings · Post by **John Rawlings** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:50 pm

Maverick wrote: they went to lobster shop wall to beat their personal goal of 180 feet deep, the profile was to dive to 200 fsw and then surface. they got split up at 160 and both divers failed to surface. the diver who past away was diving on an Al 80, not the proper gear or training. The buddy didn't want to get into it but he was not real open about it either. but that is the plan to beat a personal goal and both failed to return.
Maverick

If that truly was their "plan", I am absolutely appalled at the utter senselessness of this man's death. I don't even know where to start in terms of the poor judgement used and the mistakes made.

Believe me, I know what it's like to have that desire to go deep....to see what's "down there". Any of you with that same desire....that "twitch" to "go deep"....GET THE TRAINING TO DO SO SAFELY. I'm going to be blunt here: without good, solid training you are simply ASKING to become a lump of meat on the bottom. If and when another diver risks his/her life to find you, you will be a disgusting sight that will haunt the memories of the recovery team for the rest of their lives....is THAT how you want to be remembered?

Learn the skills....learn them well. Work hard and get the right equipment for the types of dives you want to do. Do NOT take short cuts. Take the time to LEARN and learn well. Do NOT allow your dives to exceed your skill level, strength and capabilities. If the cost of all the training and equipment intimidates you, maybe you should reflect on how much your life is worth. In a situation such as the one these divers willfully placed themselves in without training, skills and the right gear your life won't be worth a plugged nickel.

I apologize for the rant.....the useless death of a fellow human being ties me in bitter knots.

- John

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:33 pm

doing a dive to beat a personal best in depth is stupid, period. all the dives where i've set new personal best depth records it has been incidental to the entire rest of the dive.

Pinkpadigal · Post by **Pinkpadigal** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:30 pm

Another death at Lobstershop Wall, along with the several DCI hits people have had there lately worries me. My concern is that the city of Tacoma will step in and close the site to divers.

What makes me so angry is the instructor leading the dive. He knew better. The instructor, had been in similar situations before and HE KNEW not to take new divers to that depth. My bigger concern is that this instructor, while is a very good diver, has proven he is irresponisble, arrogant and has issues with alcohol. He now has a death on his conscience. As the senior diver in this group, he should have not taken these divers, and encouraged them not to pursue such a foolish venture.

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:43 pm

Pinkpadigal wrote:Another death at Lobstershop Wall, along with the several DCI hits people have had there lately worries me. My concern is that the city of Tacoma will step in and close the site to divers.

What makes me so angry is the instructor leading the dive. He knew better. The instructor, had been in similar situations before and HE KNEW not to take new divers to that depth. My bigger concern is that this instructor, while is a very good diver, has proven he is irresponisble, arrogant and has issues with alcohol. He now has a death on his conscience. As the senior diver in this group, he should have not taken these divers, and encouraged them not to pursue such a foolish venture.

Wow. I wasn't going to post in this thread any more, but- an instructor was leading this dive? That's noteworthy.

Northwest Dive Club

Missing Diver in Tacoma (Nov 2006)

Whoever thinks

sorry ... but it needs to be said

Re: sorry ... but it needs to be said

Re: sorry ... but it needs to be said