What are your thoughts on a fill membership?

[Mattleycrue76]

I've been thinking about this for a while and I don't know if it's doable. Hopefully some diveshop owners can chime in as well. I had a annual air card at a dive shop that recently closed (halfway through the year it was good for) and am now thinking about what to do for future fills.

I wish someone would come up with a monthly subscription for fills. I imagine it like a gym membership. Say something like the anual air cards/memberships offered by some local shops but instead of having to pay one lump sum $$ all at once, have a monthly amount drafted from my bank account for a membership .
It would be easier on my wallet and the LDS would have a more constant stream of revenue. And as a side effect the dive shop would have a certain number of members who sign up but hardly use the membership (just like gyms do). This would entice people to come back into said shop for their fills instead of getting them here and there and drive sales for the shop. Having several levels of membership that would cover various gas menus Air/Nitrox/Trimix etc. would make this even more enticing (obviously unlimited trimix is unrealistic but discounted levels on fills would be doable). Overall this sounds like a little more work in the billing dept. but I have to imagine that there's software that can handle that.

What do you guys think? Is this something you would like or am I alone on this? If someone offered it how would you feel about paying something like $25-$30 a month for free air and half of nitrox fills or say $60ish a month for free Nitrox and some discounts on He/O2/Ar?

If this is realistic to do and there are a good number of people who would want it maybe this could be a way for some shops to generate some new business in this challenging economy?

[Sounder]

I think it's a great idea. Most places that do it, do an annual subscription... but that sucks when a shop closes. I would feel burned. I know that's something NWSD has done, and I believe A2Z has a similar program but with different rules.

[Norris]

I like monthly better. Annual is too much of a commitment for me. I would go with the auto deduct method.

[BDub]

Mattley, we've talked about this before, but I've always felt that a monthly subscription is the way to go, for all parties.

[CaptnJack]

If I ran a shop I would never give free anything. Monthly membership levels would get you progressively larger discounts on more and more gases/stuff, but there would still be some per/tank cost for even the highest volume divers. There is too much potential to game/abuse the system otherwise.

[Norris]

If I ran a shop I would never give free anything. Monthly membership levels would get you progressively larger discounts on more and more gases/stuff, but there would still be some per/tank cost for even the highest volume divers. There is too much potential to game/abuse the system otherwise.

This post = [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A[/youtube]





Good thing you dont own a shop

[Pinkpadigal]

If you have an annual pass for air/nitrox, rather than looking at it from the annual/monthly perspective, look at it from the actual "fills" you get.

Let's use $12 per fill for nitrox, for example.

If you pay $60 a month for an "unlimited" fills, then you would have to dive 5 times to get your money's worth.
If you pay $450 a year for unlimited gas, then you would have to dive 37.5 times to get your money's worth.

What are you more likely to do? For the average non-teaching diver, you get to dive 4-6 times a month. Some months, you might get 15, while others, you might get 2. However, over a year, that number is closer 60. So, if you are looking for value, it makes more sense to purchase the pass annually. Most annual passes are cheaper than a monthly passes as well.

Every dive center is different. We do an annual pass per tank. NWSD has an annual fee per person, with a tank limit. Tacoma Scuba has monthly and annual pass program. Lighthouse and UWS sell air/nitrox cards.

[Tom Nic]

There is too much potential to game/abuse the system otherwise.

If the pass is attached to the tank and not the diver, then not so much.

I like the system A2Z uses. Of course it's always nice to get stuff for less, but this system seems to be fair for both the shop and the diver.

The more you dive, the less your fills are. If diving geezer gas is hugely important to you (as it is to me) it's a real win.

The shop gets $$ up front that help with annual costs for a system that they're paying for whether it's pumping gas or not (lease and maintenance contract). If they sold enough of them it could go a long ways toward covering a chunk of those costs each year.

If it's a membrane system there isn't an additional cost for pure O2, just the lease payment and maintenance which is usually a fixed amount. The shop also gets you as a regular presence, and odds are you end up buying some stuff out of convenience if nothing else (even if you're cheap like me).

At this point having a shop that is willing to sell an all you can eat 'trox is a non-negotiable for me as an old, fat, frequently diving diver.

[Joshua Smith]

Well- it's a sticky wicket. a decent fill station is a huge investment for any shop. When you start talking about nitrox and trimix, it's pretty damn expensive. And even after you buy all the gear, you have to factor in maintenance- filters and lube and god knows what else. A good system will probably never pay for itself, in other words. It's a loss-leader. Shops generally offer fills hoping that people will buy gear or sign up for classes while they're hanging out waiting for a fill. In other words- if you tried to make a living just filling tanks, you would hemmorhage money so fast, you'd be out of business in a New York minute. So, when you ARE getting a fill at a LDS- make a point of buying SOMETHING, if you can. I try to- can't have too many bolt snaps...or too much silicone lube, seal saver, and....that looks like an interesting mask! I wonder if it fits my face?

[trevorrowe]

I would be very interested in a system like Mattley described, with some possible other suggestions.

I don't mind committing to the year, but I would *love* to be billed for it in monthly chunks. This does a few things:

1) its not so hurtful on my pocket book, in one chunk.
2) I don't have to worry about a shop going out of business and loosing my monies

I would personally even be willing to pay a bit more for the monthly billing.

[Mattleycrue76]

Well I don't know how A-Z does things (I couldn't find anything on their website) but I'm pretty sure a per tank basis would be cost prohibitive for me.

[Tom Nic]

Well I don't know how A-Z does things (I couldn't find anything on their website) but I'm pretty sure a per tank basis would be cost prohibitive for me.

I don't think they advertise it on their website, but I believe it's around $225 or $250 for an unlimited nitrox pass on one tank for a year. (it's late and my brain is fuzzy)

Yes, if I had 5 or 6 tanks it would not work well and I'd have to figure out another option. I think NWSD'ers all you can eat takes into account more tanks... and I think it costs more comparatively. I believe that Tacoma Scuba charges $100 / month for unlimited nitrox. For someone like GD with a LOAD of tanks it's a great deal. For little ol' two tank me, not so much. DISCLAIMER - This is old info in my head, I have not checked to see if there have been recent changes.

Since I only have two 100's that I use it does work for me. My other buddies that do this also only own two tanks. For our specific situation it is as good a deal as is available in the Sound. Again, If I had a bazillion 130's like some of ya'all it would be cost prohibitive on a per tank basis.

[Pez7378]

What are your thoughts on a fill membership?

I like the idea. I hear NWSD has a great plan. And now that they'll be right off of I-5 on 164th it'll be great to just pop on in, drop off some empty cylinders, grab some full cylinders and go diving!


North West Sports Divers! The Northwests Premier Northend dive shop!

[defied]

Tacoma Scuba has a great plan as well. I think their prices got pulled because they pissed off the competition, and their air spread is pretty superior. Give them a call for their rates as well.

D(B)

[Tom Nic]

Tacoma Scuba has a great plan as well. I think their prices got pulled because they pissed off the competition, and their air spread is pretty superior. Give them a call for their rates as well.

D(B)

I hope the rates have changed! That would be cool! Uh.... unless they went up.

And why would you pull rates because they "pissed off the competition". Don't get that. Probably a can opener and some worms back there somewhere.

I was just quoting what I've been quoted in the past.

[Dashrynn]

i wished a local dive shop on the island would have a unlimited air program, i would dive more than i do now if so. i would gladly pay 300 for a year of air

[CaptnJack]

Peronally I would go for a sytem like:

$20 gets you 20% off fills
$50 month gets you 30% off fills
$100 month gets you 50% off fills
$50 month package lowers your per cf helium costs by xyz
$100 month packkage lowers your per cf helium costs even more.

The "all you can eat" gas membership has proven to be a difficult business model. Its popular around here but shops aren't exactly raking in the dough doing it. It may make fills an even bigger loss leader than they already are. Its become so popular that its hard to attract customers without a "membership" for people to go for the bulk discount on a product which is already sold at a loss though.

In FL and good parts of Cali, most of the shops fill by the cf:
air $0.04
32% $0.10
100% $0.20
Helium $0.70
and such. This is the economics 101 way to price a product.

[Burntchef]

In FL and good parts of Cali, most of the shops fill by the cf:
air $0.04
32% $0.10
100% $0.20
Helium $0.70
and such. This is the economics 101 way to price a product.

blending fee??

[no excuses]

In FL and good parts of Cali, most of the shops fill by the cf:
air $0.04
32% $0.10
100% $0.20
Helium $0.70
and such. This is the economics 101 way to price a product.

I like this, that way if I brought a tank in to be just topped off then I would not get charged the full price but just what I used.

although then I would start thinking about how much it was costing me per breath from my tank lol.

[Mongodives]

My preference is a fill card, buy them when you can and can use them on any tank, also most places that have cards make it a little cheaper per fill with the card than without.
I currently don't partake in any of the LDS's programs because I haven't settled into 1 LDS.
I'm also a cheapskate, I got real used to getting free air and $5 Nitrox(regardless of tank size) where I used to live.

[defied]

...Probably a can opener and some worms back there somewhere...

Dot

And why would you hope they changed their prices? You don't think they are competitive?

D(B)

[CaptnJack]

In FL and good parts of Cali, most of the shops fill by the cf:
air $0.04
32% $0.10
100% $0.20
Helium $0.70
and such. This is the economics 101 way to price a product.

I like this, that way if I brought a tank in to be just topped off then I would not get charged the full price but just what I used.

although then I would start thinking about how much it was costing me per breath from my tank lol.

Yeah it works well when you're bringing in double 104s with 2500psi left in them getting them topped up to 3600. I have my own compressor and believe me I have claculated the time I've spent filling vs. the bottom time for some dives and it not a good ratio.

[Mattleycrue76]

Peronally I would go for a sytem like:

$20 gets you 20% off fills
$50 month gets you 30% off fills
$100 month gets you 50% off fills
$50 month package lowers your per cf helium costs by xyz
$100 month packkage lowers your per cf helium costs even more.

The "all you can eat" gas membership has proven to be a difficult business model. Its popular around here but shops aren't exactly raking in the dough doing it. It may make fills an even bigger loss leader than they already are. Its become so popular that its hard to attract customers without a "membership" for people to go for the bulk discount on a product which is already sold at a loss though.

In FL and good parts of Cali, most of the shops fill by the cf:
air $0.04
32% $0.10
100% $0.20
Helium $0.70
and such. This is the economics 101 way to price a product.

Most places around the Puget Sound charge between $12-$12 for a single tank of Nitrox without any sort of plan. Your proposed plan would have me paying $1200 a year to get half price? So 100 Nitrox dives would cost $1800?

According to the cu ft model even filling a 119 with Nitrox would only cost about $10 (assuming there were at least 500 psi left from the last time)

I guess was really just trying to gauge how many people are out there that would like anual memberships but are currently deterred by the upfront cost. If it's a significant group of people maybe someone will cater to them. If it's not then they don't deserve to be catered to.

[CaptnJack]

Guess I shouldn't try to do math under the marg influence

According to the cu ft model even filling a 119 with Nitrox would only cost about $10 (assuming there were at least 500 psi left from the last time)

Does $10 seem excessive? Gas, filters, oil, compressor valves, air testing, etc etc all costs money and most compressors are barely breaking even as it is. $5 nitrox fills would sink most shops since there's not enough boltsnaps to make up that big a loss leader.

[Mattleycrue76]

Guess I shouldn't try to do math under the marg influence

According to the cu ft model even filling a 119 with Nitrox would only cost about $10 (assuming there were at least 500 psi left from the last time)

Does $10 seem excessive? Gas, filters, oil, compressor valves, air testing, etc etc all costs money and most compressors are barely breaking even as it is. $5 nitrox fills would sink most shops since there's not enough boltsnaps to make up that big a loss leader.

No $10 seems fair enough, maybe even a bit more than fair. But i don't see how anyone could dive enough to justify $1200 a year for only a $5-6 per tank savings. That does seem excessive.