Pony tanks?

[Nwbrewer]

Guys that's a Tekna, precursor to the Mako. Hasn't been made in about 15yrs although you can still find them used. Rewound they can actually be pretty fast. But they are leaky and while that's not the end of the world in freshwater its disasterous in saltwater.

I know, that's why I recommend an X in that color. I didn't know they would do custom colors still since it's been a while since I saw one in something other than black.

DiveXtras can have a X scooter powder coated any color you want. I can imagine Dash with a dapper pink one :luv:

Will they airbrush on the Sheahanicorn for him too? Maybe a "My little pony" on the nose? Oh oh! Hello Kitty!

[Waynne Fowler]

One of the things I really dig about this site is presented perfectly in this thread.
Anywhere else on the web this thread would have turned into a
and would have quickly gone

instead, it's remained a nice comfortable conversation about different philosophies about pony tanks not a

good stuff, in my mind that makes all of you :rr: :naka:




I'm really diggin the smiley's today!.... can ya tell?

[CaptnJack]

But I am curiouse as to why so many people feel that for a recreational dive depth, 60 ft or less ( I push that alittle deeper I admit) that this system would not provide enough air, I am a fairly new diver so I'm honestly interested in knowing what those of you more advanced folkes know that I'm am missing in this scenario?

No arguements here just truely interested to know.

S.

It been my experience that:
1) consumption doubles when the poo hits the fan
2) when the poo hits the fan people don't leave the bottom as fast as they think they can (they dink around task loaded and focused with whatever is going wrong)
3) people who run ooa during an emergency ascent tend to continue ascending and embolize

So 3cf is getting used faster, longer at depth than you probably think. Then when that little bottle runs out mid-way up you are in a world of hurt. Net its a false sense of security and there are better OOA contingency plans. Gas is time, give me enough gas and we can solve any issue. 3cf is not enough gas to solve substantive scuba issues.

These little guys were originally made to allow helicopter pilots to exit a water crash. Helicopters have the engine on top and tend to flip upside down on the water. 3cf is enough gas for the pilot to swim out at a max depth of 6-8ft (1.3ata). In this application they are fine. When using gas 3x faster at depth (3+ ata) on scuba? Not so good.

[Sockmonkey]

These little guys were originally made to allow helicopter pilots to exit a water crash. Helicopters have the engine on top and tend to flip upside down on the water. 3cf is enough gas for the pilot to swim out at a max depth of 6-8ft (1.3ata). In this application they are fine. When using gas 3x faster at depth (3+ ata) on scuba? Not so good.

HEED pants! Now!

-Eric

[Mattleycrue76]

We have different philosophies of diving and I hold my convictions as strongly as you hold yours, but you’ll get no shit storm from me. (maybe a good natured once in a while) I need buddies as much as you do, (probably more than you do since I don’t have a spare air) and I just want to know what to expect and what to be able to rely on when I dive with you.

Having said that, I think Dusty makes a couple of good points that I agree with:

1)I don’t think 3 cuft is enough. Whatever way you do your SCUBA math, it’s a very small quantity of gas to qualify as a “redundant air source.”

2)It is easy to set up a pony for the same money as a spare air if you shop around, and the benefits are many: larger gas capacity, more reliable regulator, more accurate SPG, standard equipment can be interchanged and reconfigured if your style of diving changes or you need to change your gear configuration around for some reason. (a small pony bottle could become an argon bottle or a larger pony could become a stage/deco bottle, etc) (O rings, regs, hoses, etc. are interchangeable and therefore are resources for you AND your buddies in a pinch)


In any event, I hope to see ya Monday night!

You know this is wierd, I have heard others say the same thing. but if a diver is at 70ft down and has a sudden OOA situation do you not think that the diver could make the surface with 20 breaths available to him/her? I know for myself if I have an E-situation I will not be hanging around to trouble shoot the deal, buddie or no buddie, And for myself there is no question in my mind that,FROM THAT DEPTH, I could make top side with that many breaths. for myself, with that many breaths I could (from 70- ) make the surface nice and easy even. Or make sure I got to my buddie or they got to me. I realize that for dives that would require a decompression stop that this bottle would not work (know the limetations) But I am curiouse as to why so many people feel that for a recreational dive depth, 60 ft or less ( I push that alittle deeper I admit) that this system would not provide enough air, I am a fairly new diver so I'm honestly interested in knowing what those of you more advanced folkes know that I'm am missing in this scenario?

No arguements here just truely interested to know.

S.

OK I'll give it a try. The idea behind the way I've been taught gas planning is to ensure that if you have a problem underwater e.g. OOA, you can solve the problem and then make a normal exit, be that back up a slope, anchor line etc. maintaining all your regular safety stops. On a dive to 70 ft I would be making one minute stops at 30/20/10 ft. Others might prefer an ascent to 15 ft and a 3 minute safety stop. Either way this ascent in a controlled manner should take around 5-6 minutes (3 minutes for stops and a little extra for travel time) minimum. We normally give ourselves an extra minute at depth to donate/deploy as well. Your average depth in this example is around 30ft => 2ATA. The surface air consumption rate for a stressed diver can be estimated at 1 cu ft/min (And believe me a panicked diver can use much more than that). So 1cuft/min x 2 ATA= 2cu ft/min means for a 5-6 minute orderly ascent from 70ft you could easily use 10-12 cu ft of air. The larger of the two spare airs holds 3 cu ft.

I commonly hear some air is better than no air. Undoubtedly if I found myself at 70 ft with no air and no buddy I would prefer a spair air over nothing. But I would pretty much be forced into something resembling a CESA and it's even conceivable that I could run out of air again before hitting the surface. If I'm gonna plan for that situation, why not plan in such a way that I know I can deploy my alternate gas source and really fix the problem? I have an AL40 that I purchased for $100 and I used reg can be found for $100-150. So for the price of a spaire air I can have enough gas to get me up from any recreational depth. And if I sling it, I can have the reg and SPG within sight and reach for pre dive checks as well as monitoring during the dive.

There was a tragic accident at Mukilteo some years back where the diver was seperated from his buddy and ran ou of air. He had a pony bottle but it was mounted to his tank and the reg had come undone from it's holder and lodged itself between the divers back and his rig. Had he immediately started a CESA and not held his breath he would have likely had a really decent chance of survival. Instead he spent so much time trying unsuccessfully to deploy his pony reg that by the time he gave up and started his ascent he was in full blown panic and succumbed to an air embolism. The Geodome is a memorial to this diver, built by his buddy who told me this story.

So the point here is not that any given piece of equipment is inherently good or bad but rather that it's good to think through how it's gonna work when the crap hits the fan and how to ensure that any piece of gear you rely on is available and adequate when you need it.

[ljjames]

http://homepage.mac.com/ljjames/scuba/r ... trock.html

circa 1993.

for those who have not read it, a very real story about how a pony bottle did NOT Save someones life, and it in the end was the buddy's gas (on a long hose i might add, albeit configured a bit differently than we do now)

there were a couple 'other' things that were huge contributing factors, the primary being a lack of buddy check due to complacency and having a 3 person team thinking the 'other' person had done the check on the other buddy.

I was the buddy taking pictures under the rock. I did think the other instructor was testing me cause he was always talking about how camera divers don't make good buddies. we did practice OOG pretty regularly, especially if we noticed our buddy completely absorbed and task fixated.

[pensacoladiver]

These little guys were originally made to allow helicopter pilots to exit a water crash. Helicopters have the engine on top and tend to flip upside down on the water. 3cf is enough gas for the pilot to swim out at a max depth of 6-8ft (1.3ata). In this application they are fine. When using gas 3x faster at depth (3+ ata) on scuba? Not so good.

I spent a lot of time training with these HEED (Helicopter Emergency Egress Device) bottles back in my days as a CH-53E Crew Chief. The idea was great and actually gave me a little piece of mind. However, the practical application was not so good. They were always leaking all their air out and the regulators would fail just a little too often to make them really reliable.

Of course, wearing them on the SV-2 vest and beating them to hell and back while loading an F-14 engine and 10,000 pounds of mail into the helo probably didn't help much.

The idea is great, but I think it falls short in the real world. Has anyone taken one to 70 feet and breathed off it to see how many breaths it actually provides at depth? I thought I saw something on that a while back.

I got into my pony setup for just at $200.00 Not sure what spare airs are currently running though.

[Jaksonbrown]

So here is a question....

How do you sling a pony, use a scooter, dive light and a camera with strobes and manage it effectively? Does anyone sling a single pony on the right side?

[Nwbrewer]

So here is a question....

How do you sling a pony, use a scooter, dive light and a camera with strobes and manage it effectively? Does anyone sling a single pony on the right side?

Sounds like Grateful diver rigged for Redondo .....

[sheahanmcculla]

I think someone should do a spare air test from 70'...with a extra AL40 just in case.

[CaptnJack]

I think someone should do a spare air test from 70'...with a extra AL40 just in case.

I actually tried to buy the rigged spare air "pony" in the video, its not for sale :(

[Mongodives]

I'm curious, since it was brought up. Is there any reason to sling a pony on your right side? Advantage/disadvantage?

[airsix]

I'm curious, since it was brought up. Is there any reason to sling a pony on your right side? Advantage/disadvantage?

I'm guessing the main reason no bottles are slung on the right is so as not to interfere with deployment of the long hose in an emergency.

[Mattleycrue76]

So here is a question....

How do you sling a pony, use a scooter, dive light and a camera with strobes and manage it effectively? Does anyone sling a single pony on the right side?

Scott (Lundy) manages this exact configuration (and yes it's a death star camera setup) by mounting the camera on the scooter. I don't know if his mount has a QR but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to integrate one. It swivels and makes for some great scootering video footage.

[CaptnJack]

I'm curious, since it was brought up. Is there any reason to sling a pony on your right side? Advantage/disadvantage?

Pony I don't know. Bottom stage or deco gas presents the following issues:

hose routing with a long hose has multiple conflicts (at hip, and again either across chest or at neck)
needs a specific left handed reg or funky much shorter than normal LP hose
conflicts with left handed light, cord and right side canister
harder to drive a scooter with right hand, these almost always have a "right handed" trigger

Right sided tanks are done in sidemount but in that case you don't have any tanks on your back or associated hoses.

I'm curious, since it was brought up. Is there any reason to sling a pony on your right side? Advantage/disadvantage?

I'm guessing the main reason no bottles are slung on the right is so as not to interfere with deployment of the long hose in an emergency.

If you don't have a long hose its still kinda wonky IMHO. I had one on that side once, upside down so I could reach the valve while attached to my single tank and everything. IIRC the SPG hose was ~12" long and ended at my waist.

[Dashrynn]

DiveXtras can have a X scooter powder coated any color you want. I can imagine Dash with a dapper pink one :luv:

Will they airbrush on the Sheahanicorn for him too? Maybe a "My little pony" on the nose? Oh oh! Hello Kitty!

if the (bada$$) scooter was given to me i wouldnt care if the dang thing had a picture of a dork on the side or a dudes jacobs ladder and hello kitty is soooo last year.

[CaptnJack]

hello kitty is soooo last year.

Oh good to know. If anyone else had updated me about this I would be very concerned.

[lundysd]

I've been investigating the best way to manage a scooter, light, deco bottle, and camera for some time now. I've found a few solutions that work, but there are others I'm sure (maybe Boyd will chime in here too).

The easiest solution is to put the cam on the scooter nose with a swivel and quick disconnect -- I've used this setup most extensively, but there are drawbacks...
1) it's slow as hell. Imagine tripling your drag or more just because of the camera
2) re-weighting of scooter required, and if your cam is big enough, a negative scooter.
3) even the fastest quick disconnects take time, and so you either sacrifice your shooting angle or sacrifice time to remove the cam from the scoot (this boils down to the profile and depth)
4) Did I mention it's like turning a Ferrari into a Mac truck?

The second solution is to sling your camera like a stage bottle. This is my least favored method, though I know others who do this exclusively
1) I don't want an extraneous piece of dive gear to get in the way of my life support deco gas, potentially unseating an o-ring, snagging a hose and causing a leak, or getting in the way of my buddies verifying my deco gas
2) your camera WILL get banged around with a bottle next to it, so you have to be UBER careful with dome ports
3) it still slows you down a little bit

The final method I've tried is to attach a leash to the crotch ring and swing the cam around on the right to behind my tanks and resting on the back of my legs. For scootering this works well, but for kicking this is a PITA.
1) Potential for hose/light cord snaggage if you're not careful
2) you can't see your cam, only feel it -- potential for leaks or snags on items in the water
3) if you stop suddenly, your cam can slide into the tanks -- bad news

In the end, it comes down to priorities. I have and will continue to use these methods depending on the circumstances, but I'm always open to ideas.

Oh and BTW -- yes my scooter is red

[spatman]

hello kitty is soooo last year.

Oh good to know. If anyone else had updated me about this I would be very concerned.

hello kitty recently passed the age of 35. they should rename her Hello Cougar. rawr.

[CaptnJack]

hello kitty is soooo last year.

Oh good to know. If anyone else had updated me about this I would be very concerned.

hello kitty recently passed the age of 35. they should rename her Hello Cougar. rawr.

my eyes my eyes, Hello Cougar's chasing Dash ack!

[Dashrynn]

Oh man if 35 is cougar age what is 40?

[ljjames]

i'm with scott lundy on the liking camera on the scoot, if only so that i can keep an eye on my very expensive WA port. On a day like today, even if i wanted to, which i don't, i wouldn't have room to sling a pony bottle on my right, cause my scooter ends up nose clipped there when i'm doing things, such as today, where we were hacksawing a very large boat free from fouled mooring line. Really nice way to not have it getting in the way or restricting your ability to maneuver, can be done with the camera attached (albeit bulky) but at least that way it doesn't bang on your other stages...

the answer to the 'slowing you down' thing... do what Dan and I do.... PUT IT ON A CUDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *grin*

Why would I put the camera/scooter mess on the right side? so I could drag the still camera from between my legs (butt d-ring and sitting on back of my thighs whilst scootering) and take a couple of still shots. back of thighs, for the most part, keeps it from hitting things too much also, but as scott also points out, makes kicking annoying.



putting a stagepony on the right is a PITA for a bunch of reasons, but i don't think this is really the place to go into that... (thread split?)

[spatz84]

after reading all these great post I was just thinking that I ought to go test that very idea out myself. although I dont have an al40 to take with me. I was thinking of dropping down to the geo dome or something and seeing just how much time I would get under normal breathing, could prove pretty interesting. Someone want to pursue this experiment with me?

[Mongodives]

So far, I'm getting what I expected. I only asked because it was brought up. I know probably in jest but it did make me curious because it wouldn't be an option I'd choose with how I my dive gear is configured.

[airsix]

after reading all these great post I was just thinking that I ought to go test that very idea out myself. although I dont have an al40 to take with me. I was thinking of dropping down to the geo dome or something and seeing just how much time I would get under normal breathing, could prove pretty interesting. Someone want to pursue this experiment with me?

If you're talking about breathing down a spare-air, another alternative would be to just calculate the equivalent psi change on your primary cylinder. For example I usually dive a HP 120. I know that 3 cubic feet is 84psi on that cylinder. Do a normal ascent and see what your psi change is, then calculate what you used. Double it for a rough estimate of consumption under stress (or quadruple for air-share under stress)