Diving with Redundancy

[LCF]

I third the X-shorts suggestion. It's what I use with my Fusion, because I've never been convinced that the other skins would really be an improvement over what I have -- Right now, it's light and dries fast, and I have big, velcro pockets with grommets. Tech and Bullet skins are heavier, less flexible, and have small pockets that droop. X-shorts are a better answer.

[scottsax]

+4 for the X-shorts. While my drysuit has pockets, my tropical wetsuit does not. The X-shorts work like a dream. I've even crammed them on over a rental trilam drysuit (thank god for crotch straps) and they worked just fine.

[nwscubamom]

Personally, nope. No redundant equipment. I'm diving with a buddy (one I know well and dive with regularly), and he/she is my redundancy. I really don't see that the pros outweigh the cons of having to keep track of all that stuff just for recreational diving. My diving is, well, pretty recreational. Usually in the 60-70ft max depth range.

But I think I'm more of a minimalist than a lot of folks here.

So I'm curious - am I just one of the lucky few that's never had a mask problem underwater in over 800 dives? Is this a normal occurrence? Why do you carry an extra mask? Wouldn't you just surface with your buddy if yours got knocked off or eaten by a shark or whatever it is you envision happening down there? I distinctly remember in my OW class having to do some drills sans mask, just for that very reason.

And why redundant cutting devices? Why isn't one good enough? To be honest, I've only needed to use them once, and that was to cut a struggling fish free from being tangled in fishing line in Battleground Lake. Wait, no, make that twice. My hubby got tangled in fishing line on a surface swim at night at the Monterey breakwater and I cut the line, while apologizing to the fisherman the whole time...(he was cool about it).

And why an extra dive computer? If it konks out, you surface, right? (actually, I guess it depends on what type of computer you have - mine doesn't keep track of my air pressure, so even if it dies, I still know how much air I have left)

So how often have you needed to use your spare stuff? At what point of 'preparedness' do you realistically draw the line?

Curious - I think I'm a freak. Wait, don't answer that!!

- Janna

[Mongo]

Janna,

I think those are some good points and questions. At this time, I really don't have a good answer other than it feels right. However, I may also be a bit of a gearhead too.

As a service member, I have learned over the years to always have a back up to a back up plan. It doesn't seem right to me to completely depend on someone else. I don't have a consistent dive buddy and I have often found myself alone during dives.

I really like your point about preparedness and where to draw the line - very thought provoking. Risk cannot and should not be eliminated but instead managed. I believe the management process involves being prepared to dive solo, even with a buddy. Therefore, I believe whatever gear and training is needed to achieve solo diving is where one should draw the line.

No, I don't think your a freak for your point of view. Actually, I appreciate it. I am open to all ideas and suggestions.

Thanks for your time,

Jonathan

[lamont]

So I'm curious - am I just one of the lucky few that's never had a mask problem underwater in over 800 dives? Is this a normal occurrence? Why do you carry an extra mask? Wouldn't you just surface with your buddy if yours got knocked off or eaten by a shark or whatever it is you envision happening down there? I distinctly remember in my OW class having to do some drills sans mask, just for that very reason.

While you should be able to deco from a 200 foot dive after a busted mask, it'd make the deco go a lot smoother to just have a backup.

Similarly, if you're cave diving, you should be able to do a no-viz exit, but you typically don't plan for the entire exit out of the cave to be zero viz and it slows you down a lot.

[LCF]

Janna, you have a good point. I'm edging up on a thousand dives now, and I've never needed to deploy a spare mask . . . which is why, on some simple shore dives, I no longer carry one. I do on any dive I'd be heartbroken to miss, or any dive where stress has to be kept minimal (staged decompression, cave). For the most part, I'm happy with my buddy being my backup, unless I'm diving with a buddy who is either a complete unknown or new enough to be questionable as a resource. Then I make sure I have more of my own resources.

[ArcticDiver]

Janna you asked the why on a couple items. For good, bad or indifferent here is why I duplicate some items:
-Cutting tools are duplicated so I've still got one when my clumsy fingers drop the first one. Then I put them at different places on my body so I can always get to one. Some things are better done with a blade and some with scissors so I carry one of each. (I've never dropped a cutting tool while diving but I have while working on a roof and while up in the air on a transmission tower.)
-I carry two computers for economic reasons. Most of my diving involves expensive travel. It is cheaper for me to dive with two so if there is a malfunction of either man or machine I can just keep on diving and not have any reset down time.
-I carry two masks because it hurts to dive without a mask in sea water, or water that has lots of stuff in it. I have had one mask malfunction. Before I started diving with two masks I traveled with two so if one failed I didn't have to take time to find another.

But, none of these are cast in stone and my ideas are no better than anyone else's in this matter.

I should add that I feel I need to be totally self-sufficient. If my buddy is there and has the ability to help, fine, but I don't rely on that help. This is more of a philisophical question that we all have pontificated on at length on many prior occasions.

[scottsax]

I have never needed my spare mask, but I've given it to a buddy when his mask strap broke right before the dive, so I guess it was useful then. My buddy is my gas reserves, and will call the safety stop if my computer dies (which, since it's in gauge mode doesn't tell me NDL info, either,) so I don't carry extra gas for me or a second bottom timer. I have one knife, the DIR steak knife on my waistband. I've never needed it. I suppose if I start diving wrecks that attract fishing line, I'll rethink that position.

[nwscubamom]

While you should be able to deco from a 200 foot dive after a busted mask, it'd make the deco go a lot smoother to just have a backup.

Similarly, if you're cave diving, you should be able to do a no-viz exit, but you typically don't plan for the entire exit out of the cave to be zero viz and it slows you down a lot.

Understood, but we're talking about recreational (no-decompression, no stop) diving here - not tech or cave diving. I can completely see the reasons for all the redundancies for those types of diving - they make complete sense to me.

- Janna

[Nwbrewer]

While you should be able to deco from a 200 foot dive after a busted mask, it'd make the deco go a lot smoother to just have a backup.

Similarly, if you're cave diving, you should be able to do a no-viz exit, but you typically don't plan for the entire exit out of the cave to be zero viz and it slows you down a lot.

Understood, but we're talking about recreational (no-decompression, no stop) diving here - not tech or cave diving. I can completely see the reasons for all the redundancies for those types of diving - they make complete sense to me.

- Janna

I thought we were talking about diving in general, not limited to "recreational" dives.

I carry a spare mask (I own it, why not bring it, it doesn't get in the way) I have 2 spare lights, because every once in a while I get to the site and my primary isn't charged or something, and that way I can do the dive and still have my backup. My buddy carries my spare gas, cutting device and computer.

I actually used my spare mask 2x now. Once where for some reason I just could not get my primary to seal correctly, so I just switched, and last weekend, where the strap broke at the end of my surface swim. Didn't have to go in, just switched them out and went diving.


Jake

[nwscubamom]

While you should be able to deco from a 200 foot dive after a busted mask, it'd make the deco go a lot smoother to just have a backup.

Similarly, if you're cave diving, you should be able to do a no-viz exit, but you typically don't plan for the entire exit out of the cave to be zero viz and it slows you down a lot.

Understood, but we're talking about recreational (no-decompression, no stop) diving here - not tech or cave diving. I can completely see the reasons for all the redundancies for those types of diving - they make complete sense to me.

- Janna

I thought we were talking about diving in general, not limited to "recreational" dives.

Jake,

Sorry, I may have misread there - I thought Lamont was responding directly to my inquiry as to why I'd need to carry an extra mask for the type of recreational diving I do, in which case yes, that would be limited to "recreational" dives. But I think the original post was talking about diving in general.

- Janna

[ktb]

Janna,

I completely understand your point. In fact, the only reason I carry the spare mask and light is because I FEEL more comfortable having them. Could I and would I just head to the surface without them? Yup. Do I bother taking them on tropical dives? Nope. But here, my face would get mighty cold without a mask, and I get a little bit of the willies if it's completely dark with bad viz and there's no light. I've never needed the spare mask, but I have needed the back-up light when my primary ran out of charge.

The spg as back-up for my air-integrated computer is the only thing I consider necessary regardless of conditions. It allowed me to keep diving on our vacation to Clear Lake when I lost my air-intergrated computer. (So I guess there is one more back-up I bring when on vacation--a spare computer.)

[CaptnJack]

I have broken the pins holding the strap on a few masks. Once in the water. I could hold it on since the glass and frame were still ok, but for a "serious" dive I carry a spare. Ditto batteries dying on computers I have actually finished ~45mins of deco on my buddies gauge (since mine died) and I am ok doing that. But again for the really big dives I prefer a spare since its one less big mid-dive strike which starts you circling the drain. The shears in the pocket is the same thing, I've lost knives on occasion and its no big deal. But for a genuinely big dive I want to have a spare. I'm not really paranoid though and I don't anticipate losing multiple cutting devices and getting entangled in fishing line all at the same moment. In fact I've always assumed that I am far more likely to kill myself diving than gear (or lack thereof) is going to. My biggest redundancy concern is brains.

[WylerBear]

When I started to solo dive, I put a lot more thought into what I needed to be redundant. Even though I don't do all that many solo dives, I decided that I always wanted to be prepared to do so because, as we all know, stuff happens. I've found myself on way more than one occasion, unintentionally solo diving. Not with regular dive buddies but with unknown or chance buddies. So redundancy seems to be a good idea.
I've never had to deploy my spare mask (other than doing drills) but would be so happy to have it if my mask strap broke at 100ft. I know I can swim to the surface without a mask and with my buddies help, but it would be so much better to have another mask to put on.
The only thing I've used my cutter for underwater is to free fish. But after hearing about the instructor who died at Les Davis several years ago entangled in fishing line with her knife out of reach several feet below her I feel the need to have more than one cutter. And to be able to get to at least one of them with each hand.
Extra computer means you don't need to stop the dive if one fails. Batteries die, stuff happens. Would rather be able to continue diving if a computer fails.
I like to see stuff so don't want to be without a light.
Safety sausage and lift bag with reels and spools seem like good safety devices to have.
It seemed like a bunch of extra stuff when I first configured everything but now it just seems normal.

[Mongo]

When I started to solo dive, I put a lot more thought into what I needed to be redundant. Even though I don't do all that many solo dives, I decided that I always wanted to be prepared to do so because, as we all know, stuff happens. I've found myself on way more than one occasion, unintentionally solo diving. Not with regular dive buddies but with unknown or chance buddies. So redundancy seems to be a good idea.
I've never had to deploy my spare mask (other than doing drills) but would be so happy to have it if my mask strap broke at 100ft. I know I can swim to the surface without a mask and with my buddies help, but it would be so much better to have another mask to put on.
The only thing I've used my cutter for underwater is to free fish. But after hearing about the instructor who died at Les Davis several years ago entangled in fishing line with her knife out of reach several feet below her I feel the need to have more than one cutter. And to be able to get to at least one of them with each hand.
Extra computer means you don't need to stop the dive if one fails. Batteries die, stuff happens. Would rather be able to continue diving if a computer fails.
I like to see stuff so don't want to be without a light.
Safety sausage and lift bag with reels and spools seem like good safety devices to have.
It seemed like a bunch of extra stuff when I first configured everything but now it just seems normal.

I share the same sentiment. I learned in a Rescue Diver course that self rescue is just as important as buddy rescue. However, I must admit that I am still working on a configuration that is both comfortable and streamlined for the equipment that I own.

[lamont]

Sorry, I may have misread there - I thought Lamont was responding directly to my inquiry as to why I'd need to carry an extra mask for the type of recreational diving I do, in which case yes, that would be limited to "recreational" dives. But I think the original post was talking about diving in general.

Well, I'm not sure why you'd really need it...

For divers that have aspirations of doing dives where they're necessary, it makes sense to carry them even on recreational dives, since then you get used to dealing with the extra items in the pockets (pocket management is another skill for tech divers to learn).

[LCF]

pocket management is another skill for tech divers to learn

Actually, this is a really good point. In our cold water, with the thick gloves most of us wear, it may not be trivial to access a pocket smoothly and extract what you want from it and reclose the pocket; let alone replace something in a pocket and reclose it. It's worth practicing.

[Sabre_Rider]

I originally had my computer, compass and pressure gauge in my console. After having a computer die on me at depth, I now carry my computer on my wrist and have a good ole mechanical depth gauge in the console. Even though I was with a buddy, I did not like one bit, not knowing where I was at. Pockets on the front of your legs on a drysuit, a must. I try to carry a spare mask now, as diving with a full face, if something happened to a regulator, I'd need a mask with the octo if I wanted to see anything.

[lamont]

Pockets on the front of your legs on a drysuit, a must.

That's added drag and added profile, and hangs below you where its more likely to stir up silt if you're close to the bottom.

I know that Bob had front mounted pockets on a drysuit several years ago that he hated, so maybe he can comment more from experience...

[BASSMAN]

the strap broke at the end of my surface swim. Didn't have to go in, just switched them out and went diving. Jake

This alone makes me want to start carrying a spare mask!

But other than an alternate light, My redundancy is my buddy!

I do not have any desire for solo diving or even tech diving. But a pony bottle might be a future purchase.

[Mongo]

pocket management is another skill for tech divers to learn

Actually, this is a really good point. In our cold water, with the thick gloves most of us wear, it may not be trivial to access a pocket smoothly and extract what you want from it and reclose the pocket; let alone replace something in a pocket and reclose it. It's worth practicing.

A very good point indeed.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom.

Jonathan

[Aquanautchuck]

For me I carry the following on every dive. It is easier for me to go through the exact same steps for every dive than try to decide what I want to carry on each dive and then make sure I have it on me and where I want it. I always put my spare gear in the same place so I can get it without looking or guessing where it is.

Left leg pocket--Mask and slate.
Right leg pocket--Reel with clip, spare light.
Left BCD Pocket--Lift bag
Right BCD Pocket--Safty Sausage
Center BCD Pocket--Back up computer.

My Al 30 pony is either mounted on my tank or slung. I am just learning to sling a bottle.

One last thing about back up gear. You must practice with it just like your primary gear. At the end of a dive practice deploying the lift bag or sausage, exchange masks under water, and practice OOA drill with your buddy.

I have had to use my backup mask once when a strap broke on a dive. I use my safty sausage on a lot of boat dives when we are diving in current and the group gets spread out. Lift bag has been used to recover some neat stuff over the years. I have used my pony one time when I got kicked in the mouth and my 2nd stage went into free flow and would not shut down. I was in 40' of water and my tank was empty before I got to the surface. It was a lot easier to breath off my pony than trying to breath on a free flowing 2nd stage.

Just me 2 cents worth.

[LCF]

Another point about pocket management . . . You have a buddy. It is perfectly okay to ask your buddy to put something back in your pocket, or to check and make sure that you have closed it securely. Far better to make use of your redundant (and much more mobile) eyes than to lose pocket contents!

[Sounder]

Sorry, I may have misread there - I thought Lamont was responding directly to my inquiry as to why I'd need to carry an extra mask for the type of recreational diving I do, in which case yes, that would be limited to "recreational" dives. But I think the original post was talking about diving in general.

- Janna

I guess my question is "why not?"

For me, it's a comfort thing... if I were to lose a mask (which I have, on a real dive, where I had to deploy my back-up to locate my primary mask), my team could definitely get us "home." However, I'd be a WHOLE lot more comfortable having a spare. What about losing your primary mask when it's a prescription mask? Those are expensive! Wouldn't it be nice to have a spare so you could go look for your precious primary mask? Sure, buddy can look... but two sets of eyes are better than one, and for what I understand those things costing, it seems like something I'd definitely want to find.

Also - recently I had a Lion's Mane get tentacles under my mask flap as I was clearing... swapping out to a totally different mask during the dive was a thing of beauty!!

So, why not? Is it that cumbersome an addition?

[oregondiver]

[quote="Sounder"]
Also - recently I had a Lion's Mane get tentacles under my mask flap as I was clearing... swapping out to a totally different mask during the dive was a thing of beauty!![quote]
ACK! That must have HURT!!