je boyden

[bigsky]

at some point during the evolution of your diving career
you might be tempted to own and utilize a reel.
this is basically a hand held wheel that holds line
much like a fishing reel. please be aware that
all reels have a little handle on the side for
reeling the line BACK UP

simply put, if you get in the water with
200 feet of cave line, when you get out
of the water, bring 200 feet of cave line
with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p12suU2aBzw

this is a small wreck in less than 35ffw
you could snorkel it. why in the f@#k would
you wrap line down both sides, along the
bottom, over to the bit, back to the line
side to side, twisted around the stern and bow,
up and down the freeboard, with a few
loops midships.
THEN LEAVE EVERY BIT OF THAT CRAP THERE!!

you cant get lost, the line does not go anywhere
no direction markers, no graduation marks.
wtf people? it is a 120 year old wooden vessel
in fresh water. if you absolutely are terrified of
losing your directions, use a reel. hell use two.
clean up after yourself. a little respect for the
marine environment we all enjoy goes along
way for future divers to find the same enjoyment

[Jan K]

Great job ! Thanks for sharing..

[LCF]

Well, I wonder what makes you think that that line was left behind? Have you dived it since that team did?

That was a survey dive, made under permits (I think) to identify the wreck. I can think of several reasons why the team ran line, including the fact that the visibility in the bottom of Lake Washington can sometimes be measured in inches, and also in order to take measurements or photographs at calibrated places. I would be VERY surprised if the team left behind those expensive reels.

This was not a random fun dive by uneducated people.

And thank you, Laurynn and Kathryn, for the beautiful video. I really appreciate the juxtaposition of the video, still photographs, and historical photos. That always helps me understand much better what I am seeing.

[Joshua Smith]

Well, I wonder what makes you think that that line was left behind? Have you dived it since that team did?

That was a survey dive, made under permits (I think) to identify the wreck. I can think of several reasons why the team ran line, including the fact that the visibility in the bottom of Lake Washington can sometimes be measured in inches, and also in order to take measurements or photographs at calibrated places. I would be VERY surprised if the team left behind those expensive reels.

This was not a random fun dive by uneducated people.

And thank you, Laurynn and Kathryn, for the beautiful video. I really appreciate the juxtaposition of the video, still photographs, and historical photos. That always helps me understand much better what I am seeing.

Nobody said "that team" placed the line. Lynne- but there it is in the video. I have no idea if the line is still there, having never dived that wreck myself, either. But I'll betcha 20 bucks it is. Our gang dives wrecks all the time. And one thing I can tell you is that most of the wrecks around here have tons of line left on them by divers. It's not cool. These are not caves. We use lines too- but we take all of it back up with us. Even when we scooter a wreck- we cut the line, but leave it attached to the downline, and it comes back up when we pull the shot. The nylon line we all use decays very slowly out there- leaving it all over wrecks is, plain and simple- littering. And very unnecessary. We bring ours back up with us- it's not hard to do. But- and I'm NOT pointing any fingers at anyone- there are quite obviously some groups out there that think it's OK to do this- I saw at least 3 generations of line on a recent dive on the AF Fuller- maybe more. We dived it in crappy viz- 2 teams used 2 different reels- and we brought all of it back with us.

[Chris Borgen]

Yes, the line is still there as of yesterday morning.

[H20doctor]

From what ive read, you cant dive lake union without permits.. So diving in that area is limited at best, but leaving line on a wreck is lame..

[CaptnJack]

Well maybe the people who laid those lines can report if its still in use? along with the measuring tape etc. Personally I don't have a huge issue if people are actively surveying (or looking for) something to leave line in the water. When they are "done" they should be cleaned up to a reasonably tidy standard though. Sometimes that might mean leaving a line but only if it serves a genuine purpose.

People make way to much of the PSD "permit" to dive in Lake Union and along the Seattle waterfront. I have gotten permission in the past with a mere phone call. Yes you need to talk with SPD, no its not a big deal.

[Joshua Smith]

Yeah, fine- but what about the miles of line all over the Al-Ind Esk A, the Black Dragon, and every sunken canoe, dinghy, rowboat, and scow out there? It's all over virtually every wreck shallow than 200' around here, and a few deeper ones.

Well maybe the people who laid those lines can report if its still in use? along with the measuring tape etc. Personally I don't have a huge issue if people are actively surveying (or looking for) something to leave line in the water. When they are "done" they should be cleaned up to a reasonably tidy standard though. Sometimes that might mean leaving a line but only if it serves a genuine purpose.

People make way to much of the PSD "permit" to dive in Lake Union and along the Seattle waterfront. I have gotten permission in the past with a mere phone call. Yes you need to talk with SPD, no its not a big deal.

[CaptnJack]

Yeah, fine- but what about the miles of line all over the Al-Ind Esk A, the Black Dragon, and every sunken canoe, dinghy, rowboat, and scow out there? It's all over virtually every wreck shallow than 200' around here, and a few deeper ones.

Well maybe the people who laid those lines can report if its still in use? along with the measuring tape etc. Personally I don't have a huge issue if people are actively surveying (or looking for) something to leave line in the water. When they are "done" they should be cleaned up to a reasonably tidy standard though. Sometimes that might mean leaving a line but only if it serves a genuine purpose.

People make way to much of the PSD "permit" to dive in Lake Union and along the Seattle waterfront. I have gotten permission in the past with a mere phone call. Yes you need to talk with SPD, no its not a big deal.

Oh hell yeah I totally agree. There's ALOT of line which get abandoned and that is not right. Its gotten to the point where I think there's more #24 line on some wrecks than monofilament which is obscene. If its a deeper wreck (~ >120ft)you better be pulling it when you come back cause otherwise its just garbage. Nobody is diving the AL, the MT6, or the Fuller every other week, I call BS on that. If its a shallower wreck that is actually realistic to come back to shortly for some sort of project I am ok with it staying for a few weeks or the duration of the actual project. Except when it serves some reasonable purpose, like the line to the Valient from shore, there's no excuse to leave it forever.

[rjw]

Well maybe the people who laid those lines can report if its still in use? along with the measuring tape etc. Personally I don't have a huge issue if people are actively surveying (or looking for) something to leave line in the water. When they are "done" they should be cleaned up to a reasonably tidy standard though. Sometimes that might mean leaving a line but only if it serves a genuine purpose..

I couldn't agree more. If a line is left it needs to serve a purpose. The line to Valient or to the bomber are great examples.
As Josh said in an earlier post if our team runs lines due to poor vis, unfamiliar area, etc, there is time in the plan for recovery of those lines. If you can lay line you can recover line.
So this wreck was undergoing a survey. Great work! Survey all you want please share your findings. However its in 40ffw I can't imagine not having enough time to clean up.
There is ALOT of this line left behind on several wrecks in our area. With the AL, and the Black Dragon being about the worst. Its not just litter its also a hazard. Time for this practice to go the way of the dinosaur.
ROB

[seainggreen]

Hi everyone,

Well, I can't speak for the line left on many wrecks mentioned in this thread, because I haven't been on most of them yet. To date, I haven't seen a T1 wreck that was "littered" in line. I have seen line used to link very disjointed elements of a wreck (Avenger) or for scootering to/from a site (mentioned before).

However, I can speak a bit to the video posted and referenced because I shot it. I was contracted to shoot the wreck to produce footage for MOHAI and the center for wooden boats, both of whom had been working with dive friends of mine to research, document, and archive various vessels. Because this particular vessel had been registered as "unknown", a survey project is being done. That began in late October. I only did the one dive on the vessel and have not participated in other aspects of the project. I know from past experiences in NOAA surveys that they request that the line be left down so that various teams, who may dive at different times, all have similar points of reference for their note-taking, measuring, and photographing. In my past experience, when the project's done, we go back and clean up. Again, I'm not doing the survey of this vessel and I don't know the particulars. But knowing these people I know they have every intention of cleaning it up when they're done.

That being said...

This forum's timing is, well, interesting. The YouTube Boyden video had a rather inflammatory post made on it yesterday regarding line use. I contacted the poster directly and offered for him to contact me via email or in person if he had concerns or questions. No response. I deleted the nasty comment. Within a few hours, the very unkindly toned responses come up here, in what feels like a bid to gain a larger audience. I don't find that to be especially helpful in building any kind of diving community.

I shared some of my footage on YouTube to share some history with fellow divers in the community. The video has a "contact me" email tag on it. The video says "Seainggreen", the YouTube account is "Seainggreen" and all of that matches up with posts made by Seainggreen on NWDC. If someone has a question or concern about the footage they just saw, it might be fair or just plain more friendly to just contact the filmmaker directly to talk over the concern before posting the film up on a public forum and using the footage as fodder to stir up a larger argument that is wayyyyy beyond the scope of this little bitty film. I'm just sayin'.

Anyways, sounds like everyone agrees that some line clean up needs to happen on some of the T1 and T2 sites around here. Seems like we have several qualified divers able to undertake what is relatively simple work. I'm happy to pitch in!

Happy diving,
Laurynn aka Seainggreen

[CaptnJack]

Hi everyone,

Well, I can't speak for the line left on many wrecks mentioned in this thread, because I haven't been on most of them yet. To date, I haven't seen a T1 wreck that was "littered" in line. I have seen line used to link very disjointed elements of a wreck (Avenger) or for scootering to/from a site (mentioned before).

However, I can speak to the video posted and referenced because I shot it. I was contracted to shoot the wreck to produce footage for MOHAI and the center for wooden boats, both of whom had been working with dive friends of mine to research, document, and archive various vessels. Because this particular vessel had been registered as "unknown", a survey project is being done. That began in late October. I only did the one dive on the vessel and have not participated in other aspects of the project. I know from past experiences in NOAA surveys that they request that the line be left down so that various teams, who may dive at different times, all have similar points of reference for their note-taking, measuring, and photographing. In my past experience, when the project's done, we go back and clean up. I'm not doing the survey of this vessel but knowing these people I know they have every intention of cleaning it up when they're done.

That being said...

This forum's timing is, well, interesting. The YouTube Boyden video had a rather inflammatory post made on it yesterday regarding line use. I contacted the poster directly and offered for him to contact me via email or in person if he had concerns or questions. No response. I deleted the nasty comment. Within a few hours, the very unkindly toned responses come up here, in what feels like a bid to gain a larger audience. I don't find that to be especially helpful in building any kind of diving community.

I shared some of my footage on YouTube to share some history with fellow divers in the community. The video has a "contact me" email tag on it. The video says "Seainggreen", the YouTube account is "Seainggreen" and all of that matches up with posts made by Seainggreen on NWDC. If someone has a question or concern about the footage they just saw, it might be fair or just plain more friendly to just contact the filmmaker directly to talk over the concern before posting the film up on a public forum and using the footage as fodder to stir up a larger argument that is wayyyyy beyond the scope of this little bitty film. I'm just sayin'.

Anyways, sounds like everyone agrees that some line clean up needs to happen on some of the T1 and T2 sites around here. Seems like we have several qualified divers able to undertake what is relatively simple work. I'm happy to pitch in!

Happy diving,
Laurynn aka Seainggreen

+1

[Joshua Smith]

Hi everyone,

Well, I can't speak for the line left on many wrecks mentioned in this thread, because I haven't been on most of them yet. To date, I haven't seen a T1 wreck that was "littered" in line. I have seen line used to link very disjointed elements of a wreck (Avenger) or for scootering to/from a site (mentioned before).

However, I can speak to the video posted and referenced because I shot it. I was contracted to shoot the wreck to produce footage for MOHAI and the center for wooden boats, both of whom had been working with dive friends of mine to research, document, and archive various vessels. Because this particular vessel had been registered as "unknown", a survey project is being done. That began in late October. I only did the one dive on the vessel and have not participated in other aspects of the project. I know from past experiences in NOAA surveys that they request that the line be left down so that various teams, who may dive at different times, all have similar points of reference for their note-taking, measuring, and photographing. In my past experience, when the project's done, we go back and clean up. I'm not doing the survey of this vessel but knowing these people I know they have every intention of cleaning it up when they're done.

That being said...

This forum's timing is, well, interesting. The YouTube Boyden video had a rather inflammatory post made on it yesterday regarding line use. I contacted the poster directly and offered for him to contact me via email or in person if he had concerns or questions. No response. I deleted the nasty comment. Within a few hours, the very unkindly toned responses come up here, in what feels like a bid to gain a larger audience. I don't find that to be especially helpful in building any kind of diving community.

I shared some of my footage on YouTube to share some history with fellow divers in the community. The video has a "contact me" email tag on it. The video says "Seainggreen", the YouTube account is "Seainggreen" and all of that matches up with posts made by Seainggreen on NWDC. If someone has a question or concern about the footage they just saw, it might be fair or just plain more friendly to just contact the filmmaker directly to talk over the concern before posting the film up on a public forum and using the footage as fodder to stir up a larger argument that is wayyyyy beyond the scope of this little bitty film. I'm just sayin'.

Anyways, sounds like everyone agrees that some line clean up needs to happen on some of the T1 and T2 sites around here. Seems like we have several qualified divers able to undertake what is relatively simple work. I'm happy to pitch in!

Happy diving,
Laurynn aka Seainggreen

Laurynn-it seems unfortunate that this wreck, and your video, were chosen to illustrate what some of us perceive to be a growing problem with local wrecks. Bigsky is a really great guy, and his heart is in the right place. We're increasingly frustrated on dives over the last few years, finding more and more cave line all over them- line that is most definitely left there by divers. I just saw a bunch on the Fuller that was probably 10 years old. It was running parallel to some that was maybe 5 years old, which, in turn, was running next to some that still looked crisp and new- less than a year, I'd wager.
If you're telling us that someone, at some point, is going to clean the line left on the JE Boyden up, that's great. But someone- more than likely more than one group of divers- doesn't give a damn about this. I have seen so much abandoned line on wrecks over the last few years, I can't begin to guess how much there is. It's mostly all over what I would call the "easier" wrecks- like the Al, the Black Dragon, and the Fuller. Deeper, scarier ones, like the Bunker, the Governor, and the Admiral, have little to none.
It's not cool. It stays there on the wreck for a long, long time. On some of them, it's an actual entanglement hazard. I actually wonder if some divers see it as an ego thing? As in "I was the first, second, third, whatever, diver to lay line on XYZ?" As if it were a cave, or something. The sheer amount of it we've been seeing, combined with the, well- professional quality of the tie-offs- tells me that it's fully intentional. If a diver got into a bad spot and had to cut a line and get out of Dodge in a hurry, I would understand that. But this is clearly "I'm turning the dive, hold on while I wrap my line around something, cut it, and stow the reel" kind of stuff. It serves no purpose. It's littering. It's rude. It's dangerous. And I really, really want whoever is doing it to freaking quit.

Again- I'm sorry if this looked like some kind of personal attack. I've never met you, and I have the utmost respect for research and survey dives. I just want whoever is leaving line all over to stop doing it.

[CaptnJack]

Funny thing is there's none on the Bomber (just some ancient yellow polypro around the engine). Nor the Harpoon, Urania, Valiant, Dawn, Hauler, or really any Lake WA wreck. There's some on one of the Corsair's along with a tape measure (as of last month-ish). Me thinks whomever is littering isn't on this board anyway, so this is all pissing in the wind.

[bigsky]

.......

This forum's timing is, well, interesting. The YouTube Boyden video had a rather inflammatory post made on it yesterday regarding line use. I contacted the poster directly and offered for him to contact me via email or in person if he had concerns or questions. No response. I deleted the nasty comment. Within a few hours, the very unkindly toned responses come up here, in what feels like a bid to gain a larger audience. I don't find that to be especially helpful in building any kind of diving community.

I shared some of my footage on YouTube to share some history with fellow divers in the community. The video has a "contact me" email tag on it. The video says "Seainggreen", the YouTube account is "Seainggreen" and all of that matches up with posts made by Seainggreen on NWDC. If someone has a question or concern about the footage they just saw, it might be fair or just plain more friendly to just contact the filmmaker directly to talk over the concern before posting the film up on a public forum and using the footage as fodder to stir up a larger argument that is wayyyyy beyond the scope of this little bitty film. I'm just sayin'.

Anyways, sounds like everyone agrees that some line clean up needs to happen on some of the T1 and T2 sites around here. Seems like we have several qualified divers able to undertake what is relatively simple work. I'm happy to pitch in!

Happy diving,
Laurynn aka Seainggreen

i did not nor have i ever posted a comment on any youtube video
you did not contact me via email at any time past or present
to infer otherwise is disingenuous at best

i did not contact seeingreen the video poster
as i do not know and did not accuse you of
leaving the line behind.

i am not in ' a bid to gain a larger audience'
if so i would have posted on a national board
and hammered away
local divers, local site, local problem

i have posted on this subject before

there is no way the line running
hither and yon could ever be used in
any meaningful way to survey any wreck
if that was your intent, leave the tape measure
(as someone has done on the f4 corsair)
graduate the line, arrows, cookies
or even pieces of tape

i am not the scuba police,
but i would prefer to see our local
resources remain as unmolested as
possible so that my grandchildren
(and yours) could share the same
sense of amazement i find.

to recap
pick up after yourself
if you have graduated in your
scuba hobby to a level that you
are comfortable with a reel
reel it back up
leaving line behind is ugly, inconsiderate
and could actually endanger a fellow diver

[John Rawlings]

Seems like we have several qualified divers able to undertake what is relatively simple work.

The thought that I immediately have is that if this is "relatively simple work" why isn't that work being done by the divers laying the line before they ascend? Why must others clean up behind them? Bigsky and others make a great point - we wouldn't tolerate someone leaving trash at a campsite or throwing it out their car window on the road - why is it not seen as a problem when divers leave their refuse behind?

Laurynn, you seem to feel that you are being singled out here. I do not believe that to be so for one second. I know you and I know virtually everyone else that has posted here in this thread. I don't believe that you would condone leaving line behind - but it is in fact happening. The fact is that divers leaving line behind has been a contentious issue here in the PNW and on NWDC for quite some time. It becomes contentious because some divers complain about finding line and others immediately assume that they must be the ones that are being accused.

Wouldn't it be more effective to use "shame" against anyone trashing the environment....friend or not? If you saw a person wadding up a hamburger wrapper and tossing it on the beach at Cove 2, I know that most people would either say something about it directly to that person or glare at them while picking it up and putting it into the trash. I think that we can consider this thread as "saying something" coupled with a direct "glare". Unfortunately, the divers ACTUALLY leaving line everywhere will probably never read it.

Every technical instructor in the PNW should include line removal as part of their training, and teach their students to include it as part of their dive plan. My instructor did....it isn't that difficult.

As for the JE Boyden, since you at least appear to be the only one participating in this thread that knows the members of the team doing these dives, please offer to assist them in its immediate removal at the end of their measuring project.

- John

[dsteding]

This whole thread is a step into the wayback machine, and not in a good way.

To summarize, there is "Camp A" and "Camp B." Camp A's usual gripe is line being left on wrecks, and they will strongly suggest it is cave divers--who are a huge component of "Camp B." Camp B will, in turn, start to blather on and on about wrecks being damaged by improperly placed anchors or shot lines, or looting of wrecks, and usually will insinuate that it is Camp A that is doing this.

Now, I've been somewhat out of diving for a while now, but I think it is time for the truth to come out. There is actually a "Camp C" composed of a group of renegade divers split off from Camp A and Camp B. They've been secretly trading their split fins and jet fins and cuddling each others' long hoses in the parking lot of Cove 2 when no one is looking. This group was formed when various members of the two main camps committed egregious sins like choosing the wrong scooter, buying the wrong rebreather, or generally eating the wrong cereal for breakfast. Filled with rage and loathing for their former camps, Camp C'ers are hell-bent on the downfall of Camp A and Camp B, striving to foment outright violence between the two camps.

How do they do this? By wrapping line all over Camp A's favorite wrecks and punching holes in all of Camp B's wrecks. They then sit back and lurk on these bulletin boards and laugh their a$$es off when these types of bicker-fests start up.

Don't give into Camp C.

[CaptnJack]

The line I saw "wrapping around the wreck" in the video was there for a pretty obvious purpose, to define the bulwarks. I am guessing this was done so that repeated measurements would be to and from the same edges. The tape measure down the keel defines the baseline from which the bulwarks are measured. Otherwise some divers might measure from the inside of the bulwark, some the centerline, and some might measure to the outside. The surveyed dimensions would then not be an accurate representation of the "lines" of the ship.

in case anyone was wondering why there's such a "wrapping". I've never dove in Lake Union, its not my line, the aforementioned is really just all speculation.

[seainggreen]

I'm sorry if this looked like some kind of personal attack. I've never met you, and I have the utmost respect for research and survey dives.

Hi Josh, no apology necessary and it did not feel like a personal attack. I have heard that you are a stand-up guy, and this just goes to show that you indeed are. I have seen only a small handful of the fun T2 sites, so mayhap we can coordinate a time to go exploring. And perhaps do a bit of clean-up while we are at it.

i did not nor have i ever posted a comment on any youtube video you did not contact me via email at any time past or present to infer otherwise is disingenuous at best i did not contact seeingreen the video poster i am not in ' a bid to gain a larger audience' if so i would have posted on a national board and hammered away local divers, local site, local problem

Bigsky, true, you did not post on YouTube, your friend rjw did that. But you could’ve emailed me after seeing the video to gain insight before using it as ammunition. Josh and John both say you’re a decent fellow, so I’ll take their word for it and move on.

Before I forget, I should mention that the spool and measuring tape seen in the video came up the day of the dive. I imagine the wrap defining the bulwarks is still there so as to provide a baseline by which to complete all measurements. I do not know when the project is slated to be finished. Again, I am not doing the project, I just shot some film on one dive.

Laurynn, you seem to feel that you are being singled out here. I don't believe that you would condone leaving line behind - but it is in fact happening. The fact is that divers leaving line behind has been a contentious issue here in the PNW and on NWDC for quite some time. It becomes contentious because some divers complain about finding line and others immediately assume that they must be the ones that are being accused.

Hi John. I don’t feel singled out or accused. I am disappointed that my film about a legit survey project was selected as a weapon used in a larger war of which I had no knowledge, but there’s not much I can do about that beyond saying what I’ve already said.

::: Yes, I deleted comments here. I had no idea of the larger context of what I got drug into until I did some background reading. I just shot the film. If folks here have beef with other folks they should talk directly to them. :::

As I said previously, if there is interest in a proactive, productive approach to solving the concern, I am happy to help out.

Happy diving,
Seainggreen

[Joshua Smith]

Too bad this went sideways. It's not about "camps." Or DIR, or anything except divers leaving line all over wrecks. It's not the easiest thing in the world to clean up, and my idea of a fun dive does not include spending my entire bottom time reeling up a rats nest of line that shouldn't be there in the first place. The Fuller dive cost each of us 100s bucks for the boat ride, plus gas and tips for the crew. On top of that, I should have to clean up after thoughtless divers who leave trash attached to the wreck? If whoever is doing this keeps it up, I could spend every dive cleaning up after them, and never finish. What's the point of that, exactly?
I DO think it's worthwhile to discuss here, just to raise awareness of it in the dive community. It's a small world. Even if the people doing this don't read this site, they're bound to hear about it.

[mattwave]

...one time at band camp. haha just kidding, but really, I vote for "leave no line on wrecks." Of course unless it compromises zero feet.

[CaptnJack]

Even if the people doing this don't read this site, they're bound to hear about it.

Sure and all the previous bitching and moaning about this issue has accomplished what? So this rant is likely to go... nowhere. There's a line (!) somewhere about repeating the same thing over and over expecting different results.

If you want cleaner trails you need to pack out more than you pack in. Same analogy applies here. The best estimate I can find for the lifespan of nylon fishing lines in water is about 600 yrs. So absent a good Samaritan, the existing lines on the Fuller, the Al etc will be there for about 10 generations of divers.

[Chris Borgen]

I started diving Lake Union on a weekly basis about 3 -3.5 years ago, with my buddy Erik about a year before me, and the guy who turned us on to diving Union about 6 years before us. The Boyden was one of the first dives we did becuase it is clearly marked on the nautical charts. Until about 2 months ago, there wasn't line on any of the wrecks. Why? because no one was diving them. There are roughly 3 main groups of local divers now helping, and giving their time and effort to document these wrecks for the CWB and MOHAI. Each group has contributed a major indentification, location, and historical background to 3 different wrecks that are listed on the CWB website. That being said, this line is only on one of the wrecks. My concern would be that when this same group comes across other wrecks, we will soon be finding line all over these wrecks that previously had been untouched. But with that, theres a meeting in a few days where hopefully this can be addressed so that everyone diving, and "contributing" can be on the same page. Maybe at least we can keep Lk Union from becoming a mess of line.

[John Rawlings]

....there's a meeting in a few days where hopefully this can be addressed so that everyone diving, and "contributing" can be on the same page. Maybe at least we can keep Lk Union from becoming a mess of line.

Good deal, Chris! Apparently something good might actually come from this thread despite the fact that this isn't a subject that we should even be allowed to discuss.....

[Joshua Smith]

Even if the people doing this don't read this site, they're bound to hear about it.

Sure and all the previous bitching and moaning about this issue has accomplished what? So this rant is likely to go... nowhere. There's a line (!) somewhere about repeating the same thing over and over expecting different results.

If you want cleaner trails you need to pack out more than you pack in. Same analogy applies here. The best estimate I can find for the lifespan of nylon fishing lines in water is about 600 yrs. So absent a good Samaritan, the existing lines on the Fuller, the Al etc will be there for about 10 generations of divers.

By that logic, we probably oughta quit discussing dive accidents as well, no? No point to it, because people keep dying. I'm gonna keep talking about this issue. It *almost* seems as if some people feel like this is a non-issue that is easily remedied. My proposition is that the best remedy is not me scurrying around cleaning up after someone who is continuing to lay line faster than I can pull it up. Seems pretty straightforward. I'm having trouble grasping why this is a controversial issue, to ne honest.