"Maybe you're not up on current events.....

[Matt S.]

here you go, matt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtpoGCzVWZs

there are plenty of us here who would be happy to show you in person, myself included.

Thanks. On both counts. As someone else said that's what I love about the club too.

[citycatred]

Thanks for the trip report Josh. The bad ones are always the most educational.

Speaking of shooting a bag, does anyone have a link to a good video of the technique? I was never really taught it, but just sort of picked it up and I know it's something I need to study. I rarely need the skill but I'd like to be better prepared.

here you go, matt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtpoGCzVWZs

there are plenty of us here who would be happy to show you in person, myself included.

Will you show me how to shoot a bag one of these times?

Please
You know you can't ignore the cute kitty eyes LOL

[spatman]

damn you, kitty eyes!

[citycatred]

damn you, kitty eyes!

No one can resist the cute kitty eyes

[Grateful Diver]

Maybe we should just set up a SMB "big buddy" dive ... pair up those who want to learn with those who want to show 'em how.

I'd be up for participating ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[LCF]

I'd be happy to participate in such a dive.

[Matt S.]

I'd love to come. My diving schedule is going to suck for a while though. I'm trying to sell the house and move across town and it's occupying nearly all my free time. Jen's too!

This crybaby smilie will have to do for the occasion.

[Sounder]

I'd be happy to participate in such a dive.

Me too!

[Joshua Smith]

I started a NEW THREAD about SMBs, for those who are interested.

[dwashbur]

I would also be interested in such a dive...uh, does that mean I have to buy a reel??

[spatman]

I would also be interested in such a dive...uh, does that mean I have to buy a reel??

we could probably find you a loaner. it doesn't need to be a reel, a spool will work fine.

[Grateful Diver]

I would also be interested in such a dive...uh, does that mean I have to buy a reel??

we could probably find you a loaner. it doesn't need to be a reel, a spool will work fine.

I own about a dozen spools ... I'm sure I could loan one out for some practice ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[dwashbur]

I would also be interested in such a dive...uh, does that mean I have to buy a reel??

we could probably find you a loaner. it doesn't need to be a reel, a spool will work fine.

I own about a dozen spools ... I'm sure I could loan one out for some practice ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yet another reason why this is such a terrific group and I consider it a privilege to be part of it.

Now, if I knew the difference between a reel and a spool *blush*

[spatman]

Now, if I knew the difference between a reel and a spool *blush*

a reel has a small handle that you use to crank the line up with. a spool you wind by hand.


reel:


spool:

[whatevah]

So after reading through this again, I am thinking part of the reason Joshua took offense is that I didn't distinguish clearly enough between comments that were specifically regarding his dive and comments which were more generally aimed at diver safety and human nature. I'm going to try to resolve that here by going back to his original post.

Here is where I'm talking about the story of your dive specifically...

I saw my reel and smb sitting on the bench, and just decided I didn't need them for this dive. (cue ominous foreshadowing music).

You might wish you'd taken it and it might have been useful - you'll probably do things differently next time. But I don't feel this is the key to what troubles you about the dive.

We stopped for a second, and I noted that we were now at 110'. "Little too deep for the monolith, even on this high tide" I thought. I looked at my compass, and signaled Marc which way I wanted to go- he returned my signal, which seemed great- Marc's really good at navigation- when he agrees with me, I just *know* everything's fine. (Ominous music surges up a notch).

Here is the first sign that things are getting a bit wonky. You were probably both hearing ominous music in the distance, but I would've done the same as you - wrote it off as a minor variation in the plan that would probably self correct and I would've gone on as you did. I don't think this is the key moment either.

We stopped again, and I noticed we were now at.....127'!!! WTF! I was steering us towards shore, but we got deeper. By this point, I didn't give a damn about the monolith at all- I just wanted to get shallower, and maybe get out of this now EPICALLY crappy viz.

Here's the next sign. The plan is way off track now and there are some very real concerns that need to be corrected as a priority. You recognized it and I know I'd have felt the same urgency that you did. This is the key moment I think.

We repeated the drill- I took a heading, waved my light in the right direction, Marc confirmed, and off we went.

Here is where I think a bad decision was made. You had been navigating according to the dive plan and you'd seen that something was not working once, continued, saw the problem growing the 2nd time, and then you continued again. A friend of mine is learning to fly at the moment and his instructor told him something about being willing to make change in the plan. If something doesn't seem right and you're getting the feeling that the plan isn't working, make a distinct change that will get you somewhere that's safe to reevaluate your situation and calmly revise the plan. Persisting with a plan that's not working is probably not going to produce good results.

Probably a minute later (felt like half an hour) I saw that we were now at.....a hundred and forty feet. Oh, shit. I'm OK, Meg is working just fine, but Marc's P02 is through the roof, and I'm suddenly feeling very stressed.

At this point I was really not liking the story, and it seems like many others reading along felt the same.

I thought of my SMB and reel, sitting on my bench (Ominous music crescendos). Marc signals me that he's going up, and I gulp and nod. I *Hate* greenwater ascents. That's why I *ALMOST ALWAYS* carry a 425' reel and SMB with me- so I won't have to do one. I have shot that sucker from 200' in the lake before, during a dive that went sideways a few years ago, and I love it, I do. Amazing, the psychological comfort a piece of string connecting you to the surface can provide. But, oh well- I *can* do them, I just hate them- and we had to get Marc up to a reasonable depth ASAP. Around 100', Marc pulled out a bag and finger spool, and I swear, I almost did the underwater happy dance. YAAAAAY!

We've all had dives we weren't happy with: I've had a bunch where I looked back and thought "why the hell didn't I make a simple correction sooner?" I would like to think that at the key moment I mentioned above, I'd have made a different decision than you guys did, and that I'd have started ascending with or without a line. I can think of a bunch of dive accidents that involved compounding problems - the diver accepted a problem and went on, accepted another and went on - finally, another problem broke the camel's back and they could no longer deal with all the issues at once. I think you went a third round telling yourself that your dive would converge back toward the navigation plan and I think that you wish you hadn't, because it placed both of you in greater jeopardy.

Then the misunderstanding began. If I'd headed up at that "key moment" I mentioned, I'd have kept going until I got to about 30' before considering sending up an SMB if I had one available. I understand now that you felt differently and that having the line sooner became a psychological advantage - that can be a critical improvement. For me, stopping to send that SMB up earlier might have been the next problem - the one that put things in a downward spiral. I generally do pretty well with my SMB and my reel, but you and I have both screwed up operation of a simple compass, right? Shit can and does happen. It's a personal difference, possibly based on different experiences in our dives thus far. You made it work for you and I'm glad you both were able to turn things around and get control.

After that I got to wondering why you opted for that third round of erroneous navigation, and I saw a lot of reference to disliking green water ascents without a line - maybe that influenced your decision?

From here on I am generalizing...

I think that when most people start out diving (myself included), they feel some attachment to structure - it is a connection that they feel provides some assurances. I recognize it a lot when I dive at Keystone and see others there - newer divers do the same thing I did - they skim along at the bottom of the wall. With better buoyancy control and more confidence, most of us get away from that and get the full 3D experience. But I had dives when I made bad decisions under stress, and it was partly because that attachment to structure came charging back. I have watched other stressed divers do it too - I've seen the worry in their eyes, and then off they go, sticking to the wall or the slope and seeking safety. Sometimes they don't get there :( I hope that by having some stressful dives and recognizing this problem, I won't be so inclined to follow that instinct and that I'll choose to shallow up directly - at least to the point where safety is much closer to hand and I can take a moment to think free of stress and narcosis. If you are in a stressful dive situation and you feel that control is not yours, panic is looming and reduced depth is the biggest advantage you can get. Don't be tempted to try navigation when you're operating that way. Don't feel like you need to follow the slope back to the surface. Don't let any discomfort at being surrounded by nothing but green water cloud your judgement. Closer to the surface is the shizz - don't feel like you have to take the scenic route.

[Marc]

Ok. My last comments.

I have more time diving in green water you have dives.

I wasn't panicked, nor did I feel panic closing on me. The situation was bad, it was time to go.

Was a line necessary? Nope. Was it a good idea, yep.

Marc

[Sounder]

Ok. My last comments.

I have more time diving in green water you have dives.

I wasn't panicked, nor did I feel panic closing on me. The situation was bad, it was time to go.

Was a line necessary? Nope. Was it a good idea, yep.

Marc

Did you actually read that whole thing, or did you find the Cliff Notes?

[Joshua Smith]

Whateva- Thanks for trying to clear that up. I appreciate that you took the time to do so. Your thoughts on the matter have been noted. I FULLY UNDERSTAND the point you are trying to make. I'm confident most of the people reading this thread also grasp it pretty thoroughly. I will take some time to work on my green water ascents. I have a few dives on the wreck of the Admiral Sampson coming up soon- after those are done I will set aside some time to do that.

I realize that you may not feel very charitable towards me at this point, but I would be really happy if we could agree to let this topic fade away.

[Waynne Fowler]

Maybe we should just set up a SMB "big buddy" dive ... pair up those who want to learn with those who want to show 'em how.

I'd be up for participating ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sweet! A bag shooting dive.... I got guns and an old bag to shoot... my ex wife!

[Gooch]

Josh- really glad you and your dive bud are o.k. That is what we all need from every dive- nobody got hurt; we made it home safe. Never take that for granted.

Whatevah- you had some words of wisdom too that will stick with me and ring true:

"Persisting with a plan that's not working is probably not going to produce good results." - Truer words have never been spoken

"Don't feel like you need to follow the slope back to the surface. Don't let any discomfort at being surrounded by nothing but green water cloud your judgment. Closer to the surface is the shizz - don't feel like you have to take the scenic route." - all true- there is one golden route to air and it is...UP! (in a safe, controlled manner, mind you)

[Pez7378]

I am not.

[Peter Guy]

I've been mulling over whether I should respond and decided not to because this thread had gotten so off track. However, "What's" last post brought it back so here is my 2 cents:

For people who do not have the experience of Josh and Marc, I'd just like to point out that it appears the two of them lost track of the important factor in their dive and that is where things got off track.

In most dives, there are three (or perhaps a few more) important things to track:

a. Gas (your PSI);

b. Direction;

c. Time;

d. Depth; and

e. Buddy (teammate).

Each of these items may be the most important item at any one time during the dive but the most important item will not always be the same throughout the dive. For example, knowing your PSI is really not all that important at the start of the dive (or if you are on a Breather or you know you have plenty of gas for the particular dive -- as was the case here). So even though knowing your PSI is important, one can ignore it for a lot of dives.

Direction may also be irrelevant for a large number of dives, or, as here, may be very important -- AT SOME POINT during the dive.

Depth may not be terribly relevant but, again, that may change -- and here is where I think the two of them failed to change their MOST IMPORTANT factor -- from direction to depth (PPO2). It appears that Josh and Marc had somewhat fixated on getting to their goal of the Monomyth and that to reach their goal they need to focus on Direction -- but, in fact, at some point the MOST IMPORTANT factor became depth (PPO2).

I just wanted to discuss this so that others, who are less competent/experienced, can think about how NOT to fixate on one factor during a dive -- but instead, prioritize on that factor (PSI, direction, depth, buddy, etc.) that is the important one at that time. And, of course, as the dive progresses, the Priority of any one factor will/may change and you, as the diver, need to keep thinking about what is most important. (Again, for example, while PSI may not be #1 on your list at the start of the dive, it may well become much more important as the dive progresses.)

Had Josh, rather than continue to prioritize direction, decided to prioritize depth, they might very well have just angled upslope a bit, hit the line to the Monomyth and had a totally uneventful dive.

Anyway, I just thought I'd finally add this -- for what it is worth.

[Joshua Smith]

You misunderstood my post. I was prioritizing depth, I wrote that I didn't give a Damn about the monolith any more and just wanted to get back shallow. I really don't know how I could be any clearer about that. We were not goal fixated. The amount of time between 110' and 140' was negligible, and we spent ALL of it trying to get to a safer depth.

[Peter Guy]

OK Josh -- I guess I misread the original post. I had read it that you were following your compass (direction) and not that you were following the contour shallow. My mistake. I guess I shouldn't have posted after all.

[Grateful Diver]

A lot of folks haven't been below 120 at Cove 2, and don't realize how much it flattens out down there ... it can be disorienting because the slope isn't always obvious ... particularly when you're feeling the effects of narcosis. I remember watching my Deep Diver students take a wrong turn a couple years ago at 120 ... and none of them realized they were going the wrong way. I even let them go a couple minutes before intervening, just to see if they would.

Anybody who's ever dived at Edmonds knows how disorienting it can become when the bottom flattens out. Those who've been beyond the bottle field at Redondo know what it feels like at 100. It don't get any better when you get a bit deeper. I've learned the hard way not to second-guess my compass ... but I've also been in a place where I realized I couldn't trust it ... and that truly sux ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)