my latest passion ... sidemount diving

[scottsax]

When learning to dive with double cylinders, would there be any benefit to starting with manifolded doubles and then moving to sidemount, or could you just start with sidemount?

[Joshua Smith]

When learning to dive with double cylinders, would there be any benefit to starting with manifolded doubles and then moving to sidemount, or could you just start with sidemount?

I'd probably just go straight to sidemount. There isn't that much to "learn" about diving dubs, per se. Mostly its valve drills and trim. Which don't really apply to sidemount at all.

[kdupreez]

How do you handle 2 x 40 deco bottles and an extra 80 stage with sidemount with a scooter?

With diving doubles tec gear, I have doubles and then you sling 2x deco gasses on the left with a leash on the stage.. scoot stays on the right..

I've never really paid much attention to side-mount diving here in non-cave country, so it would be very interesting to understand configuration / setup. etc.

Also, when boat diving, do you jump in the water first with no gear, then get it handed off or how does one do boat entries with side mount? And would you dive steel tanks here in PNW or AL ?

thanks for any insight Bob!

.

[vbcoachchris]

Being totally ignorant of side mount technology... Maybe a dumb question?? For open water side mount diving couldn't a person use a backplate and wing with a butt plate attached if you have the OMS/diverite type harness? It wouldn't be as low profile but then you wouldn't be squeezing through cracks anyway and once headed down I never use the wing anyway. Also, How much weighting change have you experienced between the SM and your standard doubles?

Yes, this is how people were doing it long before anyone started manufacturing a commercially available sidemount rig. The problem you have to overcome is rigging the wing to not taco, since it was designed to function with a tank in the middle (you really don't want to do this with a doubles wing). The problem was that anything that would hold down the wing would also tend to make it trap air as you were trying to deflate it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sandwich a singles wing between two back plates.

Works like a champ.

Scott

[vbcoachchris]

How do you handle 2 x 40 deco bottles and an extra 80 stage with sidemount with a scooter?

With diving doubles tec gear, I have doubles and then you sling 2x deco gasses on the left with a leash on the stage.. scoot stays on the right..

I've never really paid much attention to side-mount diving here in non-cave country, so it would be very interesting to understand configuration / setup. etc.
.

Stage on the left side. The two 40's on a leash.

Rotate the 50% bottle before the 80 ft stop
Rotate the oxygen bottle at the the 30 foot stop

Also, when boat diving, do you jump in the water first with no gear, then get it handed off or how does one do boat entries with side mount? And would you dive steel tanks here in PNW or AL ?

thanks for any insight Bob!

.

Depends on surface conditions.

Most of the SM divers I have seen dive steel, but some do dive Al

Scott


Scott

[Geek]

Stage on the left side. The two 40's on a leash.

Rotate the 50% bottle before the 80 ft stop
Rotate the oxygen bottle at the the 30 foot stop



.

Yeah, that sounds much better than doubles doing a 200' dive..... Definately not more complex at all compaired to Doubles on the back, Geez realy?

This is exactly what I ment by what am I gaining compaired to losing. Sorry, to me this just sounds silly for cold open water diving, shit hit's the fan and you have bottles everywhere. add a scooter or a camera then what? I get it, it feels nice, you trim better, easier in any posistion, easier on the back etc etc But I would like to hear how sidemount is more safe, less complicated than having doubles on your back, we are talking about dives that require that much back gas right? if it does then chances are your going to need deco gas.

I understand completely for cave diving, and I understand the attraction for people that have bad backs or a hard time with there valve drills but I still have yet to hear an explination for WHY sidemount diving is better/safer/awsomer/less complex or how to do this type of diving with the stuff we like/need to bring along ie: deco bottles, scooter, camera.

Seems to me the object would be to reduce things like tethering bottles to us, rotate bottles, keep track of what bottle we need to breath out of for how long. We do enough of that normaly. Just my opionion so far, it could change still, just waiting for someone to splain it to me in small words with pictures so I can get it

[Joshua Smith]

The reasons already mentioned are persuasive enough for me. Not sure what you're getting so excited about.

[airsix]

Not sure what you're getting so excited about.

<sarcasm>
Sidemount is a threat that must be squashed here and now. We've invested too much money in backplates, wings, manifold doubles, and training to just jump ship and join a new religion err I mean... um... diving method. We can not permit a new configuration to supplant the BP/W+doubles as the coolest fashion err I mean correct configuration. This whole thing is heresy and it must stop! </sarcasm>

On the other hand I still dive single tanks, so the opportunity to pull off a technology generation skipping move makes me smile a bit. Okay, a lot.

[Geek]

I'm not getting excited about it really, I get why people like it. On the other hand, when I see things I don't understand, that I think might be a problem and hear cricket's chirping in response to my (preceived) issues it makes me wonder about it.

We all know we get nothing for free, so what is the trade off? To me it seems like the issues I brought up... anyone want to tell me I'm wrong and why? I would love to be schooled on how dumb I am

[Grateful Diver]

Bob

Just curious. Where did you fly into? Airline?

We had an unscheduled stop there in December when we had flown into Miami for a Keys trip and the weather did us in so we played tourist. I learned to fly there but on this trip never thought about diving in Marianna since about the only thing there now is the prison.

Flew into and out of Panama City ... it's about 70 miles south of Marianna, and a very nice place to go do some Gulf wreck diving before flying home. The only airlines into PC are Delta and Southwest ... I prefer Southwest.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Joshua Smith]

....so the opportunity to pull off a technology generation skipping move makes me smile a bit. Okay, a lot.

Oh! I didn't know you were interested. They're called "rebreathers".......

[Grateful Diver]

All those pictures, Bob, and none of you actually in your new side-mount! I think we need a picture for those of us just hearing about this side-mount phenomenon

This is me in the video ... on my second day of class ...

http://chipoladivers.com/category/sidemount/

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Joshua Smith]

I'm not getting excited about it really, I get why people like it. On the other hand, when I see things I don't understand, that I think might be a problem and hear cricket's chirping in response to my (preceived) issues it makes me wonder about it.

We all know we get nothing for free, so what is the trade off? To me it seems like the issues I brought up... anyone want to tell me I'm wrong and why? I would love to be schooled on how dumb I am

I'm no expert, but eliminating the manifold and valve drills seems like a step in the right direction. Along with the need to carry the dubs around.

[Grateful Diver]

How do you handle 2 x 40 deco bottles and an extra 80 stage with sidemount with a scooter?

With diving doubles tec gear, I have doubles and then you sling 2x deco gasses on the left with a leash on the stage.. scoot stays on the right..

I've never really paid much attention to side-mount diving here in non-cave country, so it would be very interesting to understand configuration / setup. etc.

Also, when boat diving, do you jump in the water first with no gear, then get it handed off or how does one do boat entries with side mount? And would you dive steel tanks here in PNW or AL ?

thanks for any insight Bob!

.

Well, I only did one stage while down there plus a deco bottle. But in the cave, you only carry the deco bottle to the cave entrance, then you leave it there.

Stages are mounted above the main tanks ... you can mount one on either side, and I suppose if you needed more than that you could leash them just as you do now. Deco bottles clip nicely underneath your main tanks ... again, one on either side. Since the long hose routes differently, there isn't any interference for deployment by putting a bottle on your right side.

Yesterday I was diving steel LP95's ... just as I did in the caves. I'm going to be looking to acquire some HP100's for the slimmer profile. And for deeper dives, will work my way up to diving 119's and 130's.

My final dives in Florida were in the Gulf ... off a charter boat. I was using LP77's, which are roughly the same size as HP100's. I just clipped the tanks on and did a giant stride off the boat. I'll find out in three weeks how well this works on a bigger boat, when I dive the Peace down in the Channel Islands.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[airsix]

Oh! I didn't know you were interested. They're called "rebreathers".......

It's funny you say that because through this whole thread I've been thinking of you and the other breather divers watching the show.

@Bob - Thank you for this thread. As you can see there are a lot of us interested in what you have to share. Sorry for the hijack.

[vbcoachchris]

Stage on the left side. The two 40's on a leash.

Rotate the 50% bottle before the 80 ft stop
Rotate the oxygen bottle at the the 30 foot stop



.

Yeah, that sounds much better than doubles doing a 200' dive..... Definately not more complex at all compaired to Doubles on the back, Geez realy?

This is exactly what I ment by what am I gaining compaired to losing. Sorry, to me this just sounds silly for cold open water diving, shit hit's the fan and you have bottles everywhere. add a scooter or a camera then what? I get it, it feels nice, you trim better, easier in any posistion, easier on the back etc etc But I would like to hear how sidemount is more safe, less complicated than having doubles on your back, we are talking about dives that require that much back gas right? if it does then chances are your going to need deco gas.

I understand completely for cave diving, and I understand the attraction for people that have bad backs or a hard time with there valve drills but I still have yet to hear an explination for WHY sidemount diving is better/safer/awsomer/less complex or how to do this type of diving with the stuff we like/need to bring along ie: deco bottles, scooter, camera.

Seems to me the object would be to reduce things like tethering bottles to us, rotate bottles, keep track of what bottle we need to breath out of for how long. We do enough of that normaly. Just my opionion so far, it could change still, just waiting for someone to splain it to me in small words with pictures so I can get it

Like most things in diving. The more you practice a skill, the less complex it will seem. For some people, this skill no more complex than shooting an SMB.

Some people think there is value in standardization, so diving the same (or very similar) configuration in open water, as in a cave.

Scott

[Grateful Diver]

Stage on the left side. The two 40's on a leash.

Rotate the 50% bottle before the 80 ft stop
Rotate the oxygen bottle at the the 30 foot stop
.

Yeah, that sounds much better than doubles doing a 200' dive..... Definately not more complex at all compaired to Doubles on the back, Geez realy?

This is exactly what I ment by what am I gaining compaired to losing. Sorry, to me this just sounds silly for cold open water diving, shit hit's the fan and you have bottles everywhere. add a scooter or a camera then what? I get it, it feels nice, you trim better, easier in any posistion, easier on the back etc etc But I would like to hear how sidemount is more safe, less complicated than having doubles on your back, we are talking about dives that require that much back gas right? if it does then chances are your going to need deco gas.

I understand completely for cave diving, and I understand the attraction for people that have bad backs or a hard time with there valve drills but I still have yet to hear an explination for WHY sidemount diving is better/safer/awsomer/less complex or how to do this type of diving with the stuff we like/need to bring along ie: deco bottles, scooter, camera.

Seems to me the object would be to reduce things like tethering bottles to us, rotate bottles, keep track of what bottle we need to breath out of for how long. We do enough of that normaly. Just my opionion so far, it could change still, just waiting for someone to splain it to me in small words with pictures so I can get it

I'm not tethering anything until I need more than two stages and two deco bottles ... and frankly, I have yet to do a dive in doubles that needed more than that.

There are always people who are used to doing things a certain way who will find reasons for not doing it a different way. If the manifolded doubles works for you, then by all means go that route. I'm new at sidemount, and frankly so far the only thing I've found more difficult about it is getting the bungees around the valve handles. After that, it all just seems so much easier.

Oh ... and when someone tosses an OOA at you, it helps to know which reg you're breathing off of before offering them the one out of your mouth ... I hate it when the bungee stretches out and snaps the reg back into your face ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Joshua Smith]

Oh! I didn't know you were interested. They're called "rebreathers".......

It's funny you say that because through this whole thread I've been thinking of you and the other breather divers watching the show.

@Bob - Thank you for this thread. As you can see there are a lot of us interested in what you have to share. Sorry for the hijack.

The general consensus with most of my ccr buddies is that if we HAD to go back to OC, it would be on Sidemount. Many ccr divers are sidemounting their bailout already.

[spatman]

We all know we get nothing for free, so what is the trade off?

no one's saying sidemount is better than backmount, kyle. it's just different, and like backmount, has it's pros and cons.

it's all matter of preference, really.

[Grateful Diver]

I'm not getting excited about it really, I get why people like it. On the other hand, when I see things I don't understand, that I think might be a problem and hear cricket's chirping in response to my (preceived) issues it makes me wonder about it.

We all know we get nothing for free, so what is the trade off? To me it seems like the issues I brought up... anyone want to tell me I'm wrong and why? I would love to be schooled on how dumb I am

I haven't answered your questions because the complexity you're asking about is beyond anything I've yet experienced, and therefore I'd be offering speculation rather than real knowlege. But I have addressed everything that was covered in my one week of classes and diving.

I'm in no way setting myself up as an "expert" in sidemount ... I'm simply trying to relate what I've experienced in my (so far) 12 dives using the system. If you truly want to find out how to manage complex tech dives in this rig, you're really going to need to go talk to someone who's doing those dives. My suggestion would be to go to someplace like ScubaBoard, go to the sidemount forum and ask folks who have been diving this way for several years. Many of them are doing some incredibly complex dives using more tanks, scooters and photography equipment than I ever will.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[LCF]

Pros of sidemount:

1. Physical stability, as I already described.
2. Ability to get out of the water without your tanks, and to bring tanks up one by one.
3. One failure cannot lose you all of your gas.
4. You can see and easily reach your valves, and do your own bubble check.
5. Single Al80s are easily available virtually anywhere, so providing yourself with double tanks when traveling is easy.
6. Sidemount equipment weighs less for travel (no backplate) and can pack up really small.

Cons of sidemount:

1. A single failure can easily lose you half of your gas.
2. Can take longer to assemble yourself into your gear than in backmount. (This may be system/diver dependent.)
3. Carrying single 80s down stairs/ladders can be worse than carrying tanks on your back.
4. Gas management during the dive is slightly more complicated.
5. You have to remain aware of which reg you are on, in the event of a need to donate.
6. Placement of stages and deco bottles can be a little more difficult to sort out.

The two systems are similar in that it may take some time of tweaking weight and harness adjustments (and band placements on tanks in sidemount) to get the rig really optimized for your body.

I don't think anybody is trying to say that sidemount is safer or better than backmount. I think what you're hearing is that some of us who have tried it really like how it feels. I'm willing to do a little more experimentation to figure out how to carry the one deco bottle I ever carry, in order to have the stability in the water that I liked so much. If you're happy with your doubles, there's no reason to change.

[Grateful Diver]

Thank you Lynne ... great Christ, in case anyone's wondering why we see so few real dive reports on this board it's because you can always count on someone going on the attack anytime you try to say anything.

I think I'm done with this one. If anybody wants to talk about it some more, send me a PM and we'll go diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[spatman]

don't give up just yet, bob. just because kyle took his snarky pill this morning doesn't mean there aren't any others interested in the discussion.

[Geek]

I wasn't attacking anything, I was asking questions about something that everyone says is so darn niffty, didn't know you were so sensitive, I'll make sure to ask easy conformist questions next time.... or maybe your suggesting I don't ask any questions?

Thank you Lynne, that was kinda what I was looking for, I'll go back under my rock so I don't hurt anyone else's feeling now...

[Grateful Diver]

I wasn't attacking anything, I was asking questions about something that everyone says is so darn niffty, didn't know you were so sensitive, I'll make sure to ask easy conformist questions next time.... or maybe your suggesting I don't ask any questions?

Thank you Lynne, that was kinda what I was looking for, I'll go back under my rock so I don't hurt anyone else's feeling now...

I don't recall saying anything about "nifty" ... or trying to "sell" you on sidemount ... or asking you to conform. Frankly, I don't give a f@#k how you dive.

I'm cool with people asking questions ... I'm not cool with them being jerks about how they ask. Do me a favor and take your attitude to someone else's thread.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)