my latest passion ... sidemount diving

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kdupreez
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by kdupreez »

Grateful Diver wrote: Well, I only did one stage while down there plus a deco bottle. But in the cave, you only carry the deco bottle to the cave entrance, then you leave it there.

Stages are mounted above the main tanks ... you can mount one on either side, and I suppose if you needed more than that you could leash them just as you do now. Deco bottles clip nicely underneath your main tanks ... again, one on either side. Since the long hose routes differently, there isn't any interference for deployment by putting a bottle on your right side.

Yesterday I was diving steel LP95's ... just as I did in the caves. I'm going to be looking to acquire some HP100's for the slimmer profile. And for deeper dives, will work my way up to diving 119's and 130's.

My final dives in Florida were in the Gulf ... off a charter boat. I was using LP77's, which are roughly the same size as HP100's. I just clipped the tanks on and did a giant stride off the boat. I'll find out in three weeks how well this works on a bigger boat, when I dive the Peace down in the Channel Islands.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Thanks Bob! I'd like to see some sidemount in action.. I might not jump for a Z-System any time soon, but it would be really good to at least have all the information on the gear configuration and how it works.. especially if I'll be diving with someone that dives sidemount, I would need to know how it works too.

Awesome! You are diving sidemount in CA end of the month then? That would be great to get a very up close and personal look and your review on the gear and configuration!

seems like this is almost a OC vs CC debate all over again :) its just different styles of diving people.. like some people prefer touring bikes to roadster to sport touring.. to all his own..

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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by spatman »

ok, everybody settle down. no need to make a big deal over this.

especially you, koos, damn troublemaker. ;)


i've read enough about sidemount to understand the limitations and differences of that config vs backmount, and i've decided to try SM for the reasons i listed earlier in this thread. i don't feel i'm "trading up" in any way, or that i'm improving my chance of surviving a catastrophe. it's certainly a lateral move for me, and if it comes with a bit more complexity, it's worth it to me if i'm all that much more comfortable as a result.
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Grateful Diver »

Koos ... there are a lot of different systems out there. Until recently, nobody really offered an out of the box solution, because it was a very limited market, the majority of the folks who were diving sidemount made their own, and development and tooling costs just didn't make it worthwhile. Over the past couple of years, sidemount is starting to catch on, and now you have out of the box systems from Golem, Dive Rite (three different ones), OMS, Oxycheq, Hollis, and now UTD. Each has its advantages and drawbacks. I settled on a Dive Rite XT system primarily because it felt pretty comfortable and controllable, even on the first dive, and I like the option to put my weights on my back ... where my tanks used to go. The Hollis system offers some nice features (a nicer wing, to my concern), but the harness seemed a bit too flimsy to me. One of my buddies down in Florida was using the Oxycheq Recon system, and said something similar ... he liked the wing, but the harness left a lot to be desired. When I purchased my rig, Edd took it apart and made some adjustments that would route the shoulder straps a bit differently, making it easier to reach rings and backup lights. The difficulty I see with the Razor is that the placement of the shoulder straps is going to bury your backup lights once your tanks are in place.

All of that is "fixable" ... either by making modifications to the rig or by practicing until you can find everything without having to search for it. As I'm finding out right now, what works in nice, warm water with minimal exposure gear and no gloves is more difficult with the heavier undergarment and drygloves. It's going to take some getting used to ... but that's why we practice.

For me this is a new journey ... and like any new journey there are going to be some bumps in the road ... but they're part of the experience that drew me to this approach in the first place. The Channel Islands trip, with its expected current, surge, and probably waves, is going to present new challenges still ... things that I didn't get to experience in the caves, the Gulf, or here at home. It's all part of the learning experience ... and I'm looking forward to figuring out a lot of this stuff as I go ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Dusty2 »

Enjoy the journey Bob, To me each dive is a part of that journey and I have never been much of a conformist either. I think it's great that you brought this here to share with us and I am looking forward to allot more info on this fascinating new (to us anyway) topic. There are always naysayers and doubters or those who feel there is only one way to do things. Confuses say those who say it can't be done should never interfere with those who are doing it! :neener:
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by WylerBear »

Grateful Diver wrote:
Dusty2 wrote:Being totally ignorant of side mount technology... Maybe a dumb question?? For open water side mount diving couldn't a person use a backplate and wing with a butt plate attached if you have the OMS/diverite type harness? It wouldn't be as low profile but then you wouldn't be squeezing through cracks anyway and once headed down I never use the wing anyway. Also, How much weighting change have you experienced between the SM and your standard doubles?
Yes, this is how people were doing it long before anyone started manufacturing a commercially available sidemount rig. The problem you have to overcome is rigging the wing to not taco, since it was designed to function with a tank in the middle (you really don't want to do this with a doubles wing). The problem was that anything that would hold down the wing would also tend to make it trap air as you were trying to deflate it.

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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by ktb »

FWIW, I've been enjoying ALL of the discussion (and hard questions) in this thread because I don't always know what questions to ask. My back kills me when I use DBrown's 130's, so I know I'll never want to wear dubs. And really, I'd never need that much gas locally because I stay at recreational depths and I'd get cold before I run out. However, the idea of having twice the gas on vacation is appealing, especially if it means lugging less gear. BUT, having to switch regs every 200 psi seems like a pain in the ass when I just want to enjoy the reef. So . . . I guess I'm back to considering the GEM. I'm hoping to learn the good and bad of that puppy at the Rebreather Experience.

But Bob--thank you for sharing your experience!! I look forward to checking out your new system soon. And Georgia's and Spatty's and . . .
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by spatman »

ktb wrote: BUT, having to switch regs every 200 psi seems like a pain in the ass when I just want to enjoy the reef.
200psi seems to be for training, to build muscle memory and awareness. from what i understand, reg switches for general open water sidemount diving happen closer to every 500psi. but that's just what i glommed from the interwebs and a book, so take that for what it is.
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Blaiz »

Ok, this complete noob is going to ask a couple of dumb questions now.

Most (all) of my experience has been on a single tank (pony occasionally).

I understand that having doubles, well, doubles one's gas tank. Which is useful for...going deeeeeep? REALLY long dives?

I'm gathering from this thread that two tanks are required to balance trim on a sidemount rig. Could one, in theory, just have two AL40s and do a shorter, shallower dive? (not saying i want to trade my 95s/119s for that setup, just clarifying)

Is it possible to just stuff one tank on one side and go dive?

What does it mean to tether one's [stage bottles]?
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

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I'm curious about the Razor, only because I'm such a DSS gomer...
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by LCF »

Yes, you could dive dual 40's -- you'd have essentially the same gas supply as an Al80, but a bit of redundancy. People don't generally do that (although some do dive small doubles) because in open water, it's just easier to slap on a single 80. In sumps, though, people definitely sidemount small tanks, when they expect a short dive but can't afford to be devastated by a single failure.

I got a look at the new Razor setup while I was in MX -- a friend was diving it. As one would expect, it appears very well made and thoughtful. I already have one friend who has dived his in cold water in Monterey and loved it; my MX friend Kevin will be doing the same shortly, and has promised he will give me a full report (which, if Kevin is in usual form, will either be a video or about six words . . .) I strongly suspect one of these systems is going to join the gang in the basement in the fairly near future.

I would dive sidemount in Puget Sound just because I could -- because it's so much FUN.
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Dusty2 »

I have looked at doubles with envy many times but they are such a pita to lug around and handle and such that I crossed them off long ago. However the idea of being able to get the benefits of doubles but never having the hassle and never having to lug them around is quite interesting. I'm not getting any younger and the closer I can get to the water without all that weight on my back, knees and legs the better I like it. Since I already carry a 40 cu ft pony and a 120 cu hp steel I already have the dual regs I would basically only need the sling hardware and the tail pad to make it work and would never need to lug more than 50lbs or so at one time. Sounds better all the time! Dual steel 100's would give me 40 more cu ft of air and all the redundancy I have now without being any more than dual al80's :burntchef: :burntchef:
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Grateful Diver »

ktb wrote:FWIW, I've been enjoying ALL of the discussion (and hard questions) in this thread because I don't always know what questions to ask. My back kills me when I use DBrown's 130's, so I know I'll never want to wear dubs. And really, I'd never need that much gas locally because I stay at recreational depths and I'd get cold before I run out. However, the idea of having twice the gas on vacation is appealing, especially if it means lugging less gear. BUT, having to switch regs every 200 psi seems like a pain in the ass when I just want to enjoy the reef. So . . . I guess I'm back to considering the GEM. I'm hoping to learn the good and bad of that puppy at the Rebreather Experience.

But Bob--thank you for sharing your experience!! I look forward to checking out your new system soon. And Georgia's and Spatty's and . . .
You don't have to switch regs every 200 psi. I was asked to do that on the first three or four dives of training simply for the purpose of building muscle memory ... because, after all, we're conditioned to put a reg in our mouth at the beginning of the dive and leave it there unless an emergency dictates otherwise. As with learning any new behavior in scuba, repetition soon turns into something you do without really thinking about it.

After my first couple of dives, I decided it was easier just to follow my run time and switch on "10's" (minutes) ... that proved to be very effective over the course of the dive. Also, keep in mind that the reason you're switching is to maintain enough reserve in each tank to be able to do an air share ... you only have one second stage on each cylinder ... and in a cave, that means maintaining a very balanced amount of gas because you're exiting an overhead where long distances may be involved. In open water, it would be feasible to breathe one tank down to rock bottom and then switch to the other ... it would encourage sloppy habits, but it wouldn't be a safety issue.

Personally, after a half-dozen or so dives, I was switching without even thinking about it ... often without even bothering to look at my bottom timer first. It really is simple.

FWIW - Edd and Rob were taking a GEM class while I was down there, and if you think switching regs is complicated, the GEM isn't really going to be offering you any better solutions. There are things you need to keep track of there as well ... not to mention that you're adding some equipment that you now have to configure and maintain in addition to what you're already using. You also now have to learn new backup and bailout procedures.

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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Grateful Diver »

Blaiz wrote:Ok, this complete noob is going to ask a couple of dumb questions now.

Most (all) of my experience has been on a single tank (pony occasionally).

I understand that having doubles, well, doubles one's gas tank. Which is useful for...going deeeeeep? REALLY long dives?

I'm gathering from this thread that two tanks are required to balance trim on a sidemount rig. Could one, in theory, just have two AL40s and do a shorter, shallower dive? (not saying i want to trade my 95s/119s for that setup, just clarifying)

Is it possible to just stuff one tank on one side and go dive?

What does it mean to tether one's [stage bottles]?
Having two tanks has two significant advantages ... providing you with more gas (for going deep or staying a long time) and providing you with redundancy (in case you lose access to one tank) ... and so you choose your cylinders according to the dive profile. In any case, you're going to want cylinders that will allow you to maintain adequate reserves in BOTH tanks to get you and/or your buddy to the surface in the event of a failure. So for that reason I wouldn't recommend AL40's unless you're planning a simple, shallow dive at someplace like Edmonds UP, because you're going to breathe that tank down to your reserve level rather quickly. Also keep in mind that AL40's are pretty buoyant ... as are AL80's ... and you have to weight yourself accordingly. For cold water applications, I think steel cylinders are the best choice. If you want smaller cylinders, then something like an HP85 might be the way to go. On my two Gulf dives I used LP77's and they were very nice ... smallish and fairly lightweight, at least compared to the LP95's I've used on my other dives.

In theory you can dive sidemount on a single cylinder ... you just have to distribute your weights to offset the buoyancy weight of the tank. If you're going to go that route, I'd recommend stowing a backup second stage, just as you do with your backmounted singles reg. I wouldn't, personally, make this choice, because it removes much of the safety net that the sidemount rig offers ... but we all make our own risk assessments and decide accordingly.

Tethering means that you clip one or more bottles onto a small loop of rope (called a "leash") and clip it onto a D-ring so that it trails behind you as you swim along. When you need that bottle (or one of those bottles), you unclip it from the leash and bring it forward, clip it onto a shoulder D-ring where you can manipulate the valve, and use it according to your needs. This usually also means you'll be moving a spent bottle back onto the leash as part of the exercise. This is an advanced exercise ... typically done by people who are diving in places where multiple stage bottles are used to extend your bottom time. A stage typically has the same mix as your main cylinders ... or perhaps something intermediate between your main gas supply and your deco, for those going to very deep depths where the main supply has a very low oxygen content. In that case, it's generally referred to as "travel" gas. Anyone using that approach had better, before then, have become completely comfortable with moving bottles around and keeping mental track of which bottle they're breathing off of at any given time ... because deploying the wrong gas can end up killing you if you're not careful. So anyone contemplating the need for a leash needs to be well beyond recreational skills before that technique becomes practical to them.

For typical recreational applications, such techniques would never be needed. I've done possibly as many as a hundred dives in the 180 to 240 foot range and only once needed to use a leash (on the AJ Fuller) ... and even then it was more a convenience than a necessity.

Those would would contemplate such questions would be much better served taking a class from a qualified instructor (preferably one who actually does those sorts of dives) than asking a relative sidemount newb on an internet forum ... because although the complexity of such things isn't really any greater than with backmount, it is different. And even among those who are using them, there are different approaches and philosophies to mounting stages on a sidemount rig. Rob showed me two different ways, and explained the advantages and drawbacks to each. I decided that mounting them on top of the main tank worked best for me.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Grateful Diver »

LCF wrote: I would dive sidemount in Puget Sound just because I could -- because it's so much FUN.
Well that there is the best and most legitimate reason I can possibly come up with ... it's fun. That's why I dive ... and when it quits being fun I'll to take up golf or something.

All this obsessing about what someone else is doing is just silly ... go find a system that maximizes your joy of diving and have fun ... that's really why we spend all this money doing it.

For those who are considering sidemount, I'm gonna give you this one piece of advice ... take a class. Experimenting is well and good, but you will get so much more fun out of the system if you have some idea how to approach it ... particularly when it comes to figuring out how to rig your setup (there are multiple options for setting up the bungees, for example) and balancing your tanks so that they ride where they're supposed to. When they're set up right, it gives you a sense of freedom that you'll never experience in a backmount setup ... and that's where the fun begins ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by trevorrowe »

Blaiz wrote: I understand that having doubles, well, doubles one's gas tank. Which is useful for...going deeeeeep? REALLY long dives?
Doubles also provide redundancy for common failure points, mainly they give you two first stages. You can have one first stage fail, isolate yet still have access to all of the gas in the tank below it. If I understand correctly, if a 1st stage fails in sidemount though you loose all of the gas in its cylinder, which is why its important to breathe both tanks down evenly. You don't want to breathe one down to 200psi, switch and then have a failure on the full cylinder.

Am I correct in this understanding?
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by spatman »

trevorrowe wrote:
Blaiz wrote: I understand that having doubles, well, doubles one's gas tank. Which is useful for...going deeeeeep? REALLY long dives?
Doubles also provide redundancy for common failure points, mainly they give you two first stages. You can have one first stage fail, isolate yet still have access to all of the gas in the tank below it. If I understand correctly, if a 1st stage fails in sidemount though you loose all of the gas in its cylinder, which is why its important to breathe both tanks down evenly. You don't want to breathe one down to 200psi, switch and then have a failure on the full cylinder.

Am I correct in this understanding?
that is my understanding as well. but just because the first stage fails, it doesn't necessarily mean that you lose all of the gas in your cylinder. you lose only what escapes before you shut the valve down. i have read accounts of divers feathering a valve to gain a few extra minutes of gas out of a cylinder with a freeflowing reg. i've also seen mention of the possibility of swapping first stages in the water as well.


disclaimer - i don't recommend relying on any of this. it's all internet cyber-diving and should not be attempted or considered an actual bailout plan.

as usual, it's all about good gas planning and awareness.
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by airsix »

That's an interesting point about needing to maintain the redundant rock bottom values. I hadn't considered that disadvantage over manifold doubles.

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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

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airsix wrote:That's an interesting point about needing to maintain the redundant rock bottom values. I hadn't considered that disadvantage over manifold doubles.

(And no I'm not spending Saturday morning on the computer. I'm killing time at a parts counter waiting for a new saw chain to be made up.)
Its rock bottom /2 in each cylinder. Losing 1 cylinder plus an OOG buddy would be 2 majors sorta like having a reg failure in doubles with an OOA buddy. Can be done, not pretty at all. The reality is that diving a mixed team of manifold + sidemount is a bit wonky since sidemount "can't" lose all their gas but backmount "can". See above on pros/cons.
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by ArcticDiver »

Grateful Diver wrote:
ArcticDiver wrote:Bob

Just curious. Where did you fly into? Airline?

We had an unscheduled stop there in December when we had flown into Miami for a Keys trip and the weather did us in so we played tourist. I learned to fly there but on this trip never thought about diving in Marianna since about the only thing there now is the prison.
Flew into and out of Panama City ... it's about 70 miles south of Marianna, and a very nice place to go do some Gulf wreck diving before flying home. The only airlines into PC are Delta and Southwest ... I prefer Southwest.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thanks Bob. I have fond memories of Panama City. But that was back in he moonshine days when homones ran strong and lots of fun was to be had. Now I guess I'll have to settle for some diving.
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by ArcticDiver »

CaptnJack wrote:
airsix wrote:That's an interesting point about needing to maintain the redundant rock bottom values. I hadn't considered that disadvantage over manifold doubles.

(And no I'm not spending Saturday morning on the computer. I'm killing time at a parts counter waiting for a new saw chain to be made up.)
Its rock bottom /2 in each cylinder. Losing 1 cylinder plus an OOG buddy would be 2 majors sorta like having a reg failure in doubles with an OOA buddy. Can be done, not pretty at all. The reality is that diving a mixed team of manifold + sidemount is a bit wonky since sidemount "can't" lose all their gas but backmount "can". See above on pros/cons.
Guesss that is more of a philosophical question than anything else. I can't remember the last time I dove independent doubles with a team, or even a formal buddy. Even so, as long as both regulators are working throughourt a dive I consider having rock bottom in one cylinder enough. Of course, experience has something to do with that. I have never experienced, nor heard of a regulator failing in the no-gas mode at the end of a dive. Most problems are in the nature of navigation, entnaglement, or some such, not being unable to get to my gas.

Plus, since I don't have the privilege most of you do of diving with the same people repetitively i treat all dives as solo dives. If another person is along we track gas usage very closely. In fact some think I'm a pest about it. If I see either of us is falling behind we turn the dive and start heading back to ambient.

Not really disagreeing. Just saying that the "correct" answer depends on more factors than were mentioned.
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by nwbobber »

ArcticDiver wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:
airsix wrote:That's an interesting point about needing to maintain the redundant rock bottom values. I hadn't considered that disadvantage over manifold doubles.

(And no I'm not spending Saturday morning on the computer. I'm killing time at a parts counter waiting for a new saw chain to be made up.)
Its rock bottom /2 in each cylinder. Losing 1 cylinder plus an OOG buddy would be 2 majors sorta like having a reg failure in doubles with an OOA buddy. Can be done, not pretty at all. The reality is that diving a mixed team of manifold + sidemount is a bit wonky since sidemount "can't" lose all their gas but backmount "can". See above on pros/cons.
Guesss that is more of a philosophical question than anything else. I can't remember the last time I dove independent doubles with a team, or even a formal buddy. Even so, as long as both regulators are working throughourt a dive I consider having rock bottom in one cylinder enough. Of course, experience has something to do with that. I have never experienced, nor heard of a regulator failing in the no-gas mode at the end of a dive. Most problems are in the nature of navigation, entnaglement, or some such, not being unable to get to my gas. Plus, since I don't have the privilege most of you do of diving with the same people repetitively i treat all dives as solo dives. If another person is along we track gas usage very closely. In fact some think I'm a pest about it. If I see either of us is falling behind we turn the dive and start heading back to ambient. Not really disagreeing. Just saying that the "correct" answer depends on more factors than were mentioned.
It seems like the RB/2 in each cylinder would be more convenient in an OOG situation. You would have two working regs, one to donate, one to keep each with enough gas to get you out of dodge.
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by nwbobber »

I find the sidemount system interesting. One question, if you are breathing off the bungeed reg, am I correct that you need to unclip the other reg to donate?
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Grateful Diver »

nwbobber wrote:I find the sidemount system interesting. One question, if you are breathing off the bungeed reg, am I correct that you need to unclip the other reg to donate?
It would be preferable ... but I have mine tied in with an o-ring, so worst-case you grab it and pull ... it'll break away. Rob pulled more than a dozen random OOA drills on me at various points in our dives, and one time I wasn't keeping track of which reg I was breathing from ... tried to donate the bungeed reg, had it snap back in my face ... which woke me up. At that point it took all of about two seconds to unclip and donate the proper reg.

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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by LCF »

Yes, you either need to unclip, or rig your long hose reg in such a way that it is easily torn free from its moorings. But remember -- diving sidemount, the likelihood of anybody being totally out of gas is probably even lower than in backmount. (Never mind that the majority of "OOG" emergencies in backmount aren't really, but are things like grabbing the reg off the wrong stage, or shutting the wrong post.)
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Dusty2
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Re: my latest passion ... sidemount diving

Post by Dusty2 »

One question, If you are going to put your tanks on in the water how do you prevent sand and debris from getting into your regs. I understand this isn't a problem in caving but in open water surge? seems like it would be a trouble point to me.
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