drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
I was curious, what is the reason for when diving with a drysuit, to not use the BCD for buoyancy, instead of just the suit?
Seems to me its easier to release air from the bcd, than the suit.
Seems to me its easier to release air from the bcd, than the suit.
=============================================
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
For me I only have to think about one BCD underwater. In case of a rapid assent I only have to vent from one place.
Pop tarts and gravy,
It's what's for breakfast.
It's what's for breakfast.
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
You're likely to get a bunch of differing opinions on this one... Personally I keep just enough air in my suit to keep the squeeze off and use my bc for bouyancy, but I dive a Bare D6 Neoprene suit that's fairly bouyant and takes minimal air to be comfy... I think it's going to come down to trying it a few different ways and using what's most comfortable for you...
My 2 psi...
My 2 psi...
-Alex-
"so in the interest of advising something...let's see..."the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!" -Eliseaboo
"so in the interest of advising something...let's see..."the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!" -Eliseaboo
- Grateful Diver
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 5322
- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
The "runaway ascent" scenario is a false logic ... because the drysuit dump valve is designed to release air much more slowly than BCD vent valves do. In the runaway ascent situation, as you approached the surface you can more easily reach a point where the air in your suit would be expanding faster than you could dump it. Using the BCD for buoyancy gives you a much better chance to avoid finding yourself on the surface prematurely.
As for controlling two air sources, consider what happens when you raise your inflator hose ... it puts the dump valve on your drysuit right where it wants to be in order to vent air. If you dive with your dump valve in the automatic open position, the air will dump from your drysuit as you vent your BCD without you doing anything. This is why drysuit dump valves are typically placed on the same side as your BCD inflator hose.
Consider that whatever air is in your suit will move as you move. The more air you put in your suit, the harder it is to control where that bubble's going to go ... which could be particularly problematic if it ends up in your feet. If you should find yourself in that runaway situation, the BCD gives you a vent valve on the bottom of the air cell, so you can vent while inverted. The only drysuit on the market that gives you that option is the Apollo suit, which has dump valves in the ankles.
Also consider that the air cell in your BCD presents a much smaller "container" for the air to migrate, and is designed to accommodate this movement. Managing the air in your BCD is easier than in your drysuit, because it has less places to go.
For those reasons I recommend to use the BCD for buoyancy control, and only put enough air in the drysuit to add some loft to the undergarment.
Now, there is a caveat here which is that for the adequately experienced, properly weighted diver, there isn't going to be much difference either way ... because you won't be using very much air regardless of where you put it. For the inexperienced or improperly weighted diver, it will make a more significant difference.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
As for controlling two air sources, consider what happens when you raise your inflator hose ... it puts the dump valve on your drysuit right where it wants to be in order to vent air. If you dive with your dump valve in the automatic open position, the air will dump from your drysuit as you vent your BCD without you doing anything. This is why drysuit dump valves are typically placed on the same side as your BCD inflator hose.
Consider that whatever air is in your suit will move as you move. The more air you put in your suit, the harder it is to control where that bubble's going to go ... which could be particularly problematic if it ends up in your feet. If you should find yourself in that runaway situation, the BCD gives you a vent valve on the bottom of the air cell, so you can vent while inverted. The only drysuit on the market that gives you that option is the Apollo suit, which has dump valves in the ankles.
Also consider that the air cell in your BCD presents a much smaller "container" for the air to migrate, and is designed to accommodate this movement. Managing the air in your BCD is easier than in your drysuit, because it has less places to go.
For those reasons I recommend to use the BCD for buoyancy control, and only put enough air in the drysuit to add some loft to the undergarment.
Now, there is a caveat here which is that for the adequately experienced, properly weighted diver, there isn't going to be much difference either way ... because you won't be using very much air regardless of where you put it. For the inexperienced or improperly weighted diver, it will make a more significant difference.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
Yeah... What Bob said...
-Alex-
"so in the interest of advising something...let's see..."the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!" -Eliseaboo
"so in the interest of advising something...let's see..."the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!" -Eliseaboo
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
OK, I was just schooled.
Pop tarts and gravy,
It's what's for breakfast.
It's what's for breakfast.
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
thx Bob, that was pretty much my thoughts as well, but being new, I wanted to ask in case there was some reason I wasn't considering.
=============================================
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
I would never disagree with Bob on an issue with anything diving related as to how it relates to new or inexperienced divers. I will add to his caveat though. As you become more experienced you will gravitate to what works best for you and issues like inversion become non issues. I personally only use my BCD at the surface and use my suit exclusively underwater but this is a personal choice and depends on getting everything in balance and developing an inner sense of when and how to add or vent air. I would highly recommend you go with Bobs words of wisdom at least until you have arrived at the point where everything begins to become automatic and you need not think about it to make it happen. Then you can play around and see if something else works better for you.
http://dustys-lights.com/, An awesome light at an unbelievably low price
Dusty's Lights on facebook
http://underthesound.smugmug.com/
Dusty's Lights on facebook
http://underthesound.smugmug.com/
drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
I would add to what dusty said.. When you get more exp you usually drop the amount of weight you need to get under, then when your weighting is spot on you might find the BCD a bit much for fine control and stick with the drysuit while at depth, basically the goal being that taking the squeeze out of the suit=the bouency needed.. My 2psi
If I'm killed by the questions like a cancer,
Then I'll be buried in the silence of the answer.
http://www.tacomacomputersolutions.com
Life isn't like a box of chocolate's, life is like a box of chocolate and horse bisket's and no matter which one you get you have to keep on chewing...
Then I'll be buried in the silence of the answer.
http://www.tacomacomputersolutions.com
Life isn't like a box of chocolate's, life is like a box of chocolate and horse bisket's and no matter which one you get you have to keep on chewing...
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
I started out, as taught, trying to use the dry suit for buoyancy, and ended up with a couple of rather nasty uncontrolled ascents (one from 70 feet). When I took Fundies, Steve taught me to put only enough gas in the suit to relieve squeeze, and use the BC for primary buoyancy control. I was not as warm, but much more stable in the water that way. I also learned that, if you do that AND your weighting is pretty spot-on, it works best to vent the BC as you begin your ascent, and allow the gas in the suit to expand a bit before you begin venting the suit. It's much easier to move the gas around and get it to the dump valve, if you are not trying to squeeze every tiny molecule out of your undergarments.
As I got more experience, I got better at managing more gas in the suit. Nowadays, I put gas where it makes sense. If I'm going to be going through swimthroughs or otherwise assuming unusual attitudes in the water, I minimize gas in the suit. If I'm diving in very cold water, I maximize gas in the suit to stay warm. If I need to put gas in a certain place to balance myself better, I put it where it works. I don't have problems any more, figuring out which space needs venting. Eventually, you learn to feel the weight of your rig on your back (and when it starts to lift) and how loose or tight the suit feels, and you'll just know which one is getting to need venting.
As I got more experience, I got better at managing more gas in the suit. Nowadays, I put gas where it makes sense. If I'm going to be going through swimthroughs or otherwise assuming unusual attitudes in the water, I minimize gas in the suit. If I'm diving in very cold water, I maximize gas in the suit to stay warm. If I need to put gas in a certain place to balance myself better, I put it where it works. I don't have problems any more, figuring out which space needs venting. Eventually, you learn to feel the weight of your rig on your back (and when it starts to lift) and how loose or tight the suit feels, and you'll just know which one is getting to need venting.
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
My first dive today, I only used the BC, 2nd dive BC/Suit. Can get abit finer control with suit I felt. But basically used suit just to take care of squeeze, and fine tune buoyancy once and awhile.
=============================================
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
In my own Preference, I use my Suit air, for buoyancy control and added warmth. I use my BC on the surface or if I'm recovering a 10 lb. down rigger ball, I will add the extra air needed in my BC.
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict!
- Joshua Smith
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 10250
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm
Re: Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
Grateful Diver wrote:The "runaway ascent" scenario is a false logic ... because the drysuit dump valve is designed to release air much more slowly than BCD vent valves do. In the runaway ascent situation, as you approached the surface you can more easily reach a point where the air in your suit would be expanding faster than you could dump it. Using the BCD for buoyancy gives you a much better chance to avoid finding yourself on the surface prematurely.
As for controlling two air sources, consider what happens when you raise your inflator hose ... it puts the dump valve on your drysuit right where it wants to be in order to vent air. If you dive with your dump valve in the automatic open position, the air will dump from your drysuit as you vent your BCD without you doing anything. This is why drysuit dump valves are typically placed on the same side as your BCD inflator hose.
Consider that whatever air is in your suit will move as you move. The more air you put in your suit, the harder it is to control where that bubble's going to go ... which could be particularly problematic if it ends up in your feet. If you should find yourself in that runaway situation, the BCD gives you a vent valve on the bottom of the air cell, so you can vent while inverted. The only drysuit on the market that gives you that option is the Apollo suit, which has dump valves in the ankles.
Also consider that the air cell in your BCD presents a much smaller "container" for the air to migrate, and is designed to accommodate this movement. Managing the air in your BCD is easier than in your drysuit, because it has less places to go.
For those reasons I recommend to use the BCD for buoyancy control, and only put enough air in the drysuit to add some loft to the undergarment.
Now, there is a caveat here which is that for the adequately experienced, properly weighted diver, there isn't going to be much difference either way ... because you won't be using very much air regardless of where you put it. For the inexperienced or improperly weighted diver, it will make a more significant difference.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob is right on here. I will just add that I used my wing for buoyancy, and just added gas to my suit to take off squeeze, right up until I started diving my rebreather. I found out quickly that even a little gas in my wing yanks me into a vertical position on my ccr. The weighting is completely different. So, I learned to use my suit instead. The important thing is to figure out which method works best for you, and the gear you're diving in.
Maritime Documentation Society
"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
Re: Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
That about sums it upJoshua Smith wrote:The important thing is to figure out which method works best for you, and the gear you're diving in.
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict!
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
thx, Just ordered a DUI Weight and Trim to help abit on weight balance as well. Also, Tried 3pd ankle weights. I know thats sort of frowned upon, but for learning, its helped abit, as I've always had floaty feet.
=============================================
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
- Joshua Smith
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 10250
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm
Re: Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
Good call on the weight and trim. I love mine!Jeff Pack wrote:thx, Just ordered a DUI Weight and Trim to help abit on weight balance as well. Also, Tried 3pd ankle weights. I know thats sort of frowned upon, but for learning, its helped abit, as I've always had floaty feet.
Maritime Documentation Society
"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
I have floaty feet too, but damn if it doesn't make frog kicking a breeze!Jeff Pack wrote:thx, Just ordered a DUI Weight and Trim to help abit on weight balance as well. Also, Tried 3pd ankle weights. I know thats sort of frowned upon, but for learning, its helped abit, as I've always had floaty feet.
- Grateful Diver
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 5322
- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
The ankle weights are a good investment ... when you get to the point where you decide you want to dive doubles you can cut the buckles off and they will make a nice 6# channel weight ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
I have been kind of feet-heavy the last couple of dives with the new drysuit, so on Saturday I ended up using mine wrapped around the base of the valves (dive 1), then around the tank centered between the two straps on dive 2. Worked out pretty nice as a balancer...Grateful Diver wrote:The ankle weights are a good investment ... when you get to the point where you decide you want to dive doubles you can cut the buckles off and they will make a nice 6# channel weight ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Jim
<Penopolypants> "I, for one, would welcome our new cowboy octopus overlords."
<LCF> "There is ALWAYS another day to dive, as long as you get home today."
<LCF> "There is ALWAYS another day to dive, as long as you get home today."
- Grateful Diver
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 5322
- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
Yup, they're a nice "quick fix" as trim weights too ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
With my back, I can safely say doubles will never happen. With a Steel 95, and 42pds of weight, thats pushing my back as is.Grateful Diver wrote:The ankle weights are a good investment ... when you get to the point where you decide you want to dive doubles you can cut the buckles off and they will make a nice 6# channel weight ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Although question, when I switch to my AL80's, how much weight do I add. I seem to recall about 4 pds?
=============================================
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
+4lbs for an AL80 vs. most steel tanks which are basically neutral to -1.
+1 on the bad back although I am actually vastly more comfortable in doubles than a single. The larger weightbelt for singles makes me sorer.
+1 on the bad back although I am actually vastly more comfortable in doubles than a single. The larger weightbelt for singles makes me sorer.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
I've got a bad back too and the doubles can get really heavy even before you add on stage bottles. So I pretty much skipped the doubles route and went straight to a rebreather. My rEvo is about 75lbs ready to dive. I'm guessing that's a bit lighter than even your single tank setup - I know it was for me.Jeff Pack wrote:With my back, I can safely say doubles will never happen. With a Steel 95, and 42pds of weight, thats pushing my back as is.
drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
42 lbs? Are you diving a 7 mm wet suit?
-Ron T.
"When I'm 80 I'll take up real diving, which is done in a pub..." Ray Ives.
253-227-0856
My Dive Pics...
https://www.facebook.com/RETOPPPHOTOGRAPHY
"When I'm 80 I'll take up real diving, which is done in a pub..." Ray Ives.
253-227-0856
My Dive Pics...
https://www.facebook.com/RETOPPPHOTOGRAPHY
Re: drysuit, and BCD for buoyancy?
No Whites Fusion, Mk3 undergarment. Steel 95 tank.cardiver wrote:42 lbs? Are you diving a 7 mm wet suit?
36 Pounds and I was cork, Anthony suggested +6.
I might be a couple of pds heavy, but not alot.
=============================================
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it
CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.