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Dusty2 wrote:While I was typing this there were several other posts so this may be redundundunt
IMHO the rush to AOW is one of the culprits. Far to many new divers want to rush into AOW so they can go deeper and the other things that it is supposed to qualify you for. Notice I said qualify and not train you because that is what most classes are for. Just to get that magic AOW card. I remember people telling me early on that AOW is easy. No classes no skills to learn just do 5 dives and your good! REALLY??? This is what gets people killed.
I am not pointing at anyone. Just saying this is the attitude I saw when I was new and certainly not qualified to to be what I feel is an AOW level diver. I remember one instructor that insisted that you do the advanced buoyancy skills as part of your (optional's) for AOW cert and thinking wow I won't do that class. Now I realize she was on the right track and it should be one of the mandatory skills BEFORE deep dive or boat dive. My feeling is that I wouldn't call some one with 50 dives an experienced diver simply because they survived that many dives. Buoyancy is ,IMHO,THE single most important skill to get you to the next level and the one most people have the most trouble learning. Some can get this down much faster than others but no one should feel they are ready for AOW until this is second nature. You can't stop, think, act if you can't control you buoyancy.
So if someone is not aware of it, how would they be defined as "chest beating"? In all honestly I didnt "feel" my first narc until I was well past 100' and only on a direct descent down a bouy line to 125'. I haden't felt narc'd following a slope to depth. I certainly am not saying that I wasn't narc'd I am saying that up till that dive I never felt anxious, nervous, or boggled. So it seems to me that you cannot lump everyone into your rant. I believe that people handle and deal with not feeling "quite right" differently. So should you have asked me on a 100' dive about feeling narc'd I would have most likely said, "nah all was well."ljjames wrote: People who say they have never been narc'd or don't get narc'd till 130' are full of shit and chest beating. We ALL get narc'd, just not everyone is aware of it.
Norris wrote:So if someone is not aware of it, how would they be defined as "chest beating"? In all honestly I didnt "feel" my first narc until I was well past 100' and only on a direct descent down a bouy line to 125'. I haden't felt narc'd following a slope to depth. I certainly am not saying that I wasn't narc'd I am saying that up till that dive I never felt anxious, nervous, or boggled. So it seems to me that you cannot lump everyone into your rant. I believe that people handle and deal with not feeling "quite right" differently. So should you have asked me on a 100' dive about feeling narc'd I would have most likely said, "nah all was well."ljjames wrote: People who say they have never been narc'd or don't get narc'd till 130' are full of shit and chest beating. We ALL get narc'd, just not everyone is aware of it.
So about the narcosis I think that YMMV,
Dont get me wrong I totally agree with you, I just don't want newer divers constantly wondering why they are not feeling narc'd or different when at or near 100fsw when in all reality they absolutely SHOULD BE, according to what you stated.ljjames wrote:Then i did not write this 'rant' for you, so feel free to disregard.
If one person reads it and says "hmm... sounds familiar" and turns a dive, just once, then maybe it was worth the time I spent trying to put some thoughts down in writing that i thought might be helpful.
Norris wrote:So if someone is not aware of it, how would they be defined as "chest beating"? In all honestly I didnt "feel" my first narc until I was well past 100' and only on a direct descent down a bouy line to 125'. I haden't felt narc'd following a slope to depth. I certainly am not saying that I wasn't narc'd I am saying that up till that dive I never felt anxious, nervous, or boggled. So it seems to me that you cannot lump everyone into your rant. I believe that people handle and deal with not feeling "quite right" differently. So should you have asked me on a 100' dive about feeling narc'd I would have most likely said, "nah all was well."ljjames wrote: People who say they have never been narc'd or don't get narc'd till 130' are full of shit and chest beating. We ALL get narc'd, just not everyone is aware of it.
So about the narcosis I think that YMMV,
5+ years later I still don't have a really good concise pithy "internet" answer to the question of sticking with a rapidly ascending/corking buddy, staying put, or ascending at a normal rate. I can't even put my finger on all the factors it depends on.LCF wrote: This diver's buddy had to make that decision, in deciding not to follow him up at the rate he was going. I remember, back a number of years ago, when I went out to do a skills dive with Captn Jack. My buoyancy stank, and I corked from 20 feet or so. Richard posted a question, on ScubaBoard IIRC, about what one should do when one's buddy corked. It embarrassed me at the time, but it's a real question, and this diver had to face it . . . and will forever have to ask herself what would have happened if she had chosen differently. Maybe he wouldn't be dead, and maybe they both would be.
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Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
CaptnJack wrote:5+ years later I still don't have a really good concise pithy "internet" answer to the question of sticking with a rapidly ascending/corking buddy, staying put, or ascending at a normal rate. I can't even put my finger on all the factors it depends on.LCF wrote: This diver's buddy had to make that decision, in deciding not to follow him up at the rate he was going. I remember, back a number of years ago, when I went out to do a skills dive with Captn Jack. My buoyancy stank, and I corked from 20 feet or so. Richard posted a question, on ScubaBoard IIRC, about what one should do when one's buddy corked. It embarrassed me at the time, but it's a real question, and this diver had to face it . . . and will forever have to ask herself what would have happened if she had chosen differently. Maybe he wouldn't be dead, and maybe they both would be.
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For me, it would depend on the depth, but generally, if the corking diver can't regain control within the first 20-30' of ascending, I would stop trying to help and keep myself from getting hurt.Joshua Smith wrote:CaptnJack wrote:5+ years later I still don't have a really good concise pithy "internet" answer to the question of sticking with a rapidly ascending/corking buddy, staying put, or ascending at a normal rate. I can't even put my finger on all the factors it depends on.LCF wrote: This diver's buddy had to make that decision, in deciding not to follow him up at the rate he was going. I remember, back a number of years ago, when I went out to do a skills dive with Captn Jack. My buoyancy stank, and I corked from 20 feet or so. Richard posted a question, on ScubaBoard IIRC, about what one should do when one's buddy corked. It embarrassed me at the time, but it's a real question, and this diver had to face it . . . and will forever have to ask herself what would have happened if she had chosen differently. Maybe he wouldn't be dead, and maybe they both would be.
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Really? I have ascended a few feet to grab a diver who was starting to cork. He was freaked out and disoriented. And i knew I stood a good chance of getting him back under control. But a real, full on cork? Sorry, but I'm going to wave good bye and hope the corker comes out ok.
+1spatman wrote:For me, it would depend on the depth, but generally, if the corking diver can't regain control within the first 20-30' of ascending, I would stop trying to help and keep myself from getting hurt.Joshua Smith wrote:CaptnJack wrote:5+ years later I still don't have a really good concise pithy "internet" answer to the question of sticking with a rapidly ascending/corking buddy, staying put, or ascending at a normal rate. I can't even put my finger on all the factors it depends on.LCF wrote: This diver's buddy had to make that decision, in deciding not to follow him up at the rate he was going. I remember, back a number of years ago, when I went out to do a skills dive with Captn Jack. My buoyancy stank, and I corked from 20 feet or so. Richard posted a question, on ScubaBoard IIRC, about what one should do when one's buddy corked. It embarrassed me at the time, but it's a real question, and this diver had to face it . . . and will forever have to ask herself what would have happened if she had chosen differently. Maybe he wouldn't be dead, and maybe they both would be.
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Really? I have ascended a few feet to grab a diver who was starting to cork. He was freaked out and disoriented. And i knew I stood a good chance of getting him back under control. But a real, full on cork? Sorry, but I'm going to wave good bye and hope the corker comes out ok.
Depends on circumstances. I've sometimes reached up and snagged a D-ring, flaring out and "riding" the corker to the surface to slow them down. If we're shallow enough, there's not much risk to me, and it helps give them more time to take a breath ... the biggest danger in all of this is the instinct to hold one's breath in a stressful moment. Also, particularly with newer divers, I think seeing someone holding onto you has a calming effect.Joshua Smith wrote:CaptnJack wrote:5+ years later I still don't have a really good concise pithy "internet" answer to the question of sticking with a rapidly ascending/corking buddy, staying put, or ascending at a normal rate. I can't even put my finger on all the factors it depends on.LCF wrote: This diver's buddy had to make that decision, in deciding not to follow him up at the rate he was going. I remember, back a number of years ago, when I went out to do a skills dive with Captn Jack. My buoyancy stank, and I corked from 20 feet or so. Richard posted a question, on ScubaBoard IIRC, about what one should do when one's buddy corked. It embarrassed me at the time, but it's a real question, and this diver had to face it . . . and will forever have to ask herself what would have happened if she had chosen differently. Maybe he wouldn't be dead, and maybe they both would be.
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Really? I have ascended a few feet to grab a diver who was starting to cork. He was freaked out and disoriented. And i knew I stood a good chance of getting him back under control. But a real, full on cork? Sorry, but I'm going to wave good bye and hope the corker comes out ok.
This was also my thought, however as I read "speculation starts fires" I wasn't going to chime in and light yet another match. Glad you took the liberty to do soJoshua Smith wrote:Much as I hate random speculation: if a diver were to experience an arterial gas embolism during a rapid ascent, they might aspirate enough water to become negatively buoyant. Maybe. Or maybe something else happened. Or not.Jeff Pack wrote:Had the same question myself. Once you ascend, you don't just sink like that.
This a great point, Tom.Tom Nic wrote:..."anyone can call a dive at any time for any reason with no repercussions"...
We need to be aware of what's going on between our ears and in our heart as much or more than what is going on with our equipment. An emergency that might be handled relatively easily in a good frame of mind may turn into a deadly panic when our frame of mind is not so good.
I think you covered a lot of great points in this, Austin. I was never taught deep stops in my aow classes.. all they did was assess how I felt while narc'd. I'll be honest in saying that i had gone to 90 + feet multiple times before ever taking my aow classes but only because I was comfortable doing so and worked my way up to it over 60 dives. I read about deep stops, emergency deco procedures and obviously absorbed the gas consumption rate info from my ow classes and from what I read from three different organizations' aow or equivalent books (i wasn't just taking one companies word on it) and I feel the things that were covered in my aow class were essentially irrelevant for the most part. I did a deep stop on my deep dive day and my instructor had no idea what I was doing.. "why did we stop at 55 feet?"kitsapdiver wrote:Lynne,
Just out of curiosity, if it doesn't reveal proprietary information, how will you be modifying the procedures you use in your class?
When an AOW class only has 4 or 5 dives and 4 or 5 missions or goals to accomplish it doesn't leave a lot of time for actual training. It seems to me that if you only have one dive dedicated to being the deep dive that it doesn't do a lot in the way of instruction. I think we would be far better served to spend the lecture time talking about deep stops, and some basic principles, and then practice the in water skills necessary to execute the theory.
I think a class like that could be much better served by working on accents, buoyancy, addressing some of the skills from OW, but off the bottom while maintaining some kind of depth control, and then simulate accents from shallow depths. Make an ascent on a couple dives from 40 fsw with stops at 20, 15, and 10 feet for a minute each, and do it on a line, and in blue water.
Once those accent skills have been simulated and the instructor is confident in the divers ability to make a safe accent than you can do a 'checkout' dive to 80 or 100 fsw so that the instructor can evaluate the divers mindset.
I think in general blue water accents or accents up a line on a lift bag or smb aren't practiced enough. Those skills can really help make people more comfortable.
EDIT: Added Personal History:
I did my AOW "deep dive" in a quarry in Ohio. There was a platform at 20 feet, and they ran a line down to the bottom of the quarry at 75 feet or so. The instructor put 8 students on the platform and had a DM babysit them, while the instructor took two students at a time to 75 ffw, they turn around and came right back, and the instructor took the next two. This didn't teach me better buoyancy, it didn't teach me much at all,
I think it's interesting that we associate AOW with being certified to 100 fsw, and really the only difference between 30 fsw and 100 fsw is gas consumption and the accent, and most AOW classes lack adequate gas planning, and only dedicate one dive to the accent.
And for the record I have no idea what happened in C2, and am not commenting on recent events. I'm simply responding to Lynnes' comment.
Austin
pensacoladiver wrote:I waited to see if anyone was going to post about an issue that a few folks commented on in the other thread... the free flowing reg while deep and how that is scary.
I'm probably going to take a few face shots on this, but I've took em before. Let me start by saying, I am not a Scuba Instructor, I don't play one on TV, nor am I a dive professional in any way.... so I am not trying to advocate any particular way to do things over another. Just posting what has happened to me in the past and what I did to fix the problem.
First thing and I'll get it out right now is myself and the folks I dive with here do not exactly subscribe to the "stick close to your buddy" mentality. I know, it goes against what I was trained to do, but hunting, being on a scooter, shooting video, insert whatever excuse you want, we get seperated and are all ok with that. It's a conscious decision we make.
IMO, the first part of dealing with a free flowing reg is KNOW YOUR GEAR. If you do not have the ability to close your eyes or be blindfolded and still be able to touch EVERY piece of your gear, why not??? In a stressful situation, you need to be able to react without having to see everything, especially considering with a freeflow reg there is a damn good chance your vision is going to be filled with bubbles.
Gonna sidetrack for a second, and again, this is a personal belief... the ONLY way I have found to wear your backup reg, in a manner that reduces stress during a gas emergency is bungeed around the neck. I have had 2 free flows of my gear at over 100 feet and 1 with my buddy. BY FAR the most stressful was with my buddy. He was fairly new to the deeper wrecks and came swimming over to me with bubbles everywhere at 125 feet. I had no idea where the hell they were coming from, because it was from his backup and he had it "tucked" into his right side cumberbund. Needless t say, after that we had a discussion about where we were going to wear our gear... he now has his backup reg around his neck. If it free flows, he will know it right away. Not trying to say you have to do it that way... but it works for me.
Both of my free flows were away from my buddy and both ended up being pressure/depth related. One was on my primary and the other with my back up. In both cases, the first thing I did was check to make sure they were detuned all the way, my back up stays that way so that is just a double check. In both cases, next step was to slap the reg mouthpiece down into the palm of my hand. I have seen that work ion the past at shallower depths. This did nothing.
Reg goes back in the mouth. I reach back with my right arm and start to close my first stage valve. When I get it almost closed but still have free flow, I ensure I get that good breath and go ahead and close the valve. The air will escape from the free flow reg and stop.
As I am exhaling, it is also time to swim up a bit. Just before its time to inhale, valve comes back on. Inhale, close valve, continue swimming up, exhale, open valve, repeat. In both my free flowing cases, the reg stopped after I ascended about 20-30 feet. If not, I would continue all the way to the surface. I have not had to do it yet, but I have no doubts about my ability to perform this during the 3 minute safety stop.
Again, I am not saying this is the right way on the "by the book" way to handle a free flow. It was Chads way of handling things when I had bubbles everywhere and said "aw shit"
Adding this to sig line. It sums up an awful lot...LCF wrote:There is ALWAYS another day to dive, as long as you get home today.
Many 2nd stage regs have a knob on the side that allows you to somewhat control the air flow out of the reg. By detuning it, I turned the knob to the lowest flow point. The result is, you will feel the reg is harder to breathe. I usually adjust my primary reg a few times each dive depending on my workload.scubnewb wrote:OK what does detuned mean... oh and I was thinking about all of this yesterday and i was thinking to myself... well in a deepwater scnerio, wouldnt it be possible to shut the valve to slow or stop the flow all together so you have less stress and pressure to get to the top. I think that path of thinking came from watching the movie Sanctum the otherday and thinking about when the son takes the pony bottle and just takes the breathes off it he needs with no regulator at the end of the movie. Of course i thought well it is just a movie, but that doesnt mean its not possible. I dont dive deeper then 60ft unless i happen to wonder over the 60 mark and not notice then I turn right around... so at this point I would probably just run with a ascent as trained. But it is something that I was thinking about and wondering about.