Perception of the DIR community?

General banter about diving and why we love it.
dsteding
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Post by dsteding »

thelawgoddess wrote:
let's blame our wussiness all on bdub and bob. ;-)
Reminds me of that anti-drug commercial where the dad is confronting his son with a bunch of drugs in his hand yelling "where did you learn to do this?"

The kid responds: "I learned it by watching you Dad!"

Priceless.

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Post by mattwave »

Another fun topic by DSteding.

I don't think your question has been answered yet, and I don't know if my answer will shed any light here.

Like my Grandaddy always said:
"Life's not Fair, and nothing's Perfect!"

Well my vote is that goes for everything in life including GUE, PADI, TDI, NTEC, ANDI, IANTD, etc...

Dive with people that you like to spend your fun time in life with, and either convince them to get trained and dive up to your standards or find some others that dive by your standards (Whatever agencies or diving philosophy dictates those standards).

My Grandaddy also said:
"I'm not a Frog and you're not a Bunny, so let's not Jump Ahead."
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Post by dsteding »

mattwave wrote:Another fun topic by DSteding,
Thanks buddy, this place was getting a bit quiet.
mattwave wrote:
Dive with people that you like to spend your fun time in life with, and either convince them to get trained and dive up to your standards or find some others that dive by your standards (Whatever agencies or diving philosophy dictates those stadards).
Your point and perspective is a good one, maybe this is more indicative of the petty playground nature of dive politics in general. People will find reasons to like/not like each other in lots of ways. I dunno, I deal with lots of conflict at work, I don't really want it in my diving life, so I thought I'd address what I've been seeing lately.

mattwave wrote:
My Grandaddy also said:
"I'm not a Frog and you're not a Bunny, so let's not Jump Ahead."
As you know, I love your shop, but if you ever refer to me as a "bunny" it is time to find another LDS . . . :pale:
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Post by mattwave »

Rob Holman wrote:My experience is that even within the DIR crowd there are splits.
I think that's just based on which Scooter you own.
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Post by CaptnJack »

mattwave wrote:
Rob Holman wrote:My experience is that even within the DIR crowd there are splits.
I think that's just based on which Scooter you own.
You should see Rob's...
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Post by Tangfish »

I haven't yet had a good experience with anything DIR. That is not to say that I haven't learned anything valuable that DIR divers also happen to practice. But, those skills are just practices I consider as useful in certain circumstances, whereas the typical DIR diver would likely tell you that it's the only way to dive, all of the time.

Just the other day I had a condescending comment thrown my way by a DIR diver. In fact, I quite like the guy and I doubt he even realized that what he was saying was insulting. It's probably just second-nature to refer to anyone else's practices as 'wrong' - IF you happen to consider everything you do as being done 'right'. :dontknow:
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Post by dsteding »

Calvin wrote:I haven't yet had a good experience with anything DIR.
Calvin, that is unfortunate, I know you are a superb diver because I've seen you in the water.

In fact, I know at least one DIR diver that was very complimentary of your skills after Sechelt. He did acknowledge a different approach to diving, but not in a condescending way at all.

Playground politics. :angryfire:
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Post by Tangfish »

Doug, let me qualify that seemingly all-negative comment by saying that 99% of my experience with DIR diving has been reading posts on the web, the majority of which have been flame wars.

I can't say that I have had measurable practical experience with DIR diving practices in the water, though I do know enough about it to hold a reasonably intelligent conversation. Furthermore, I've never actually met a diver in person who was an asshole, who I also knew subscribed to that school of thought. (Actually, almost all divers are very nice people, in person)

Like I said, the fellow who laid a brick for me didn't know that he was doing so, I'm almost sure of it.
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Post by dsteding »

Thanks for the candid reply Calvin-I'm glad for the chance to converse.

I'd agree, the internet DIR presence is, quite frankly, horrible at times. Then again, message boards in general can degrade quickly to people running off their mouths and working without an internal filter . . .

I try and sort through the BS, because there are some good nuggets on message boards, and one of the cool things about this board is it is so damn civil. Makes me keep coming back, so kudos to you for starting it, and kudos to the members for maintaining a civil, friendly board.

Unfortunately, I think that your experience with DIR is the norm, I happened to have gotten sucked in prior to reading about things on the internet. My first experiences were colored by diving with Bob (he says he's not DIR, but he's a damn fine diver regardless of labels, and I saw him in the water and a light went on). Lynne--our resident DIR crusader, got a hold of me shortly thereafter and here I am. My experiences with the DIR community have been positive, I don't think that is a big secret. So, when I heard other opinions it was kinda like being at a party where someone comes up to you and proclaims your best friend is a royal dick-head.

I hope--I don't know for sure--but I hope that most of people's understanding of DIR is colored by the internet rather than our local community. That is why I phrased the topic of this thread the way I did. Certainly, all diving cliques will have their bad apples, but by and large I've either managed to avoid them or have been fortunate to not meet them. I'm saying this not in defense of DIR but in general--everyone I've met through this board seems like a good person. So, given the schism in the local community regarding DIR/no-DIR, I thought I'd bring this topic up . . .

Hopefully people are willing to continue to share. What is your perception of the local DIR community, and how did you form that?
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Post by Tangfish »

dsteding wrote:when I heard other opinions it was kinda like being at a party where someone comes up to you and proclaims your best friend is a royal dick-head.
:evil4:

This made me laugh ;)
dsteding wrote:What is your perception of the local DIR community, and how did you form that?


Ok, I'll try to be as honest as self-aware as possible. To tell you the honest truth, I know very little about the local DIR community. The best thing I've read on this thread is this:
Grateful Diver wrote:The best ambassadors of DIR are the ones who don't talk about it ...

[AND]

Lots of people don't know that the majority of the "mentors" who came out for our Big Buddy dives last year were DIR divers. Know why? Because it was never brought up.
So, DIR folk who I've met locally - I probably didn't even know are DIR. The people I've (unrightfully) judged all DIR divers on are the a-holes I've seen telling people what they should and should not do, around the web. I guess first impressions are hard to break, and though it's not right, I don't think I'm alone either.

Even the acronym 'DIR' itself, has such a negative connotation, as far as I've seen. I can't think of another dive-related word that evokes eye-rolling on the scale that this word does. And, I'm admitting to you right now that I think a lot of it is undeserved. But, no matter the cause, perceptions are perceptions - and I think a big first step in curtailing some of the dislike for DIR is renaming the darn school of thought. Come on, for how commonsense most of the practices are, you have to admit - it's a pretty nonsensical and arrogant name, eh?

Interestingly, I do remember quite a few instances in which the loudest mouth in the bunch was called out by someone much more knowledgeable - and it turned out that the preaching party was merely regurgitating practices they read somewhere else.

Hopefully something good comes of this thread. I'm glad you put yourself out there, I don't think any of the other members (who don't know you in person) would've guessed you to be DIR, based on the fact that you don't fit the expectation. ;)
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Post by CaptnJack »

Small history lesson...
The term DIR was chosen for a reason and it wasn't meant to be nice and polite. Every once in awhile you find an old techdiver thread that is in a cache somewhere. They make drunk sailors blush.

BTW Calvin, you were buddied with Bob but both Ursa and myself (from 3tree North + Cove 2 with MX food inbetween awhile back) would consider ourselves DIR divers.

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Post by bnboly »

As a fairly new diver - only 38 dives - with open/advanced with PADI and Rescue with SSI/PADI, and nav with NAUI, the discussion of DIR always seems to come up - but not in the sense of DIR - more like if you are going to dive do it right or don't dive at all. And yes I do understand the difference in my uses of 'DIR'.

I really don't care who you certify or what tenent you follow, I'll do at least 1 dive with you. If I don't feel comfortable diving with you I'll abort the dive - I've done it before and I'm sure I'll do it again! As mattwave said - dive with those you have fun with and those you feel comfortable diving with!
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Post by thelawgoddess »

dsteding wrote:What is your perception of the local DIR community, and how did you form that?
speaking personally, my initial perception (before and when i just started diving) was not so great, and was entirely based on me being told that the local DIR "people" were basically jerks and unfriendly. (i remember getting that impression pretty directly from 3 different sources.) i try not to maintain preconceived notions, but it's like reading reviews about things you haven't experienced firsthand and it sort of lingers ever so lightly no matter how you try to ignore it. now that i've been around a few (and had several exchanges online with) a number of local divers who are "more or less" DIR, i can't say i have found any of them to be unfriendly in any way. they seem to be very willing to share their experiences and opinions with newbies, and they appear to me to generally be overachievers in terms of getting out there and doing what it takes to try to become better divers (which to me is a good thing). honestly, i think that i would actually feel a bit more confident in a new buddy's skills just knowing that he was DIR trained. (not that i don't feel confident in my buddies who aren't DIR trained; just if i had nothing else to go on - if that makes any sense.)
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Post by LCF »

Well, there's a fair amount of prejudice out there (and it may well have been earned, for all I know!) I vividly remember saying something about DIR in front of the owner of a local tech-oriented shop and having him look at me in consternation and say, "You're not DIR, are you?"

I don't know why people would feel that way. After all, we DIR divers are the nut cases diving doubles at Edmonds, and lining up scooters and stage bottles to cruise the mud flats at the bottom of Cove 2. What's not to like?
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Post by Grateful Diver »

thelawgoddess wrote:
dsteding wrote:Guilty as charged as well, and also totally okay with it. I'd say we are lucky to have the instructors (DIR and non-DIR, Bob and BDub come to mind here) that we do around here.
very lucky.

let's blame our wussiness all on bdub and bob. ;-)
and happy to take the blame ... but neither bdub nor me is DIR ... #-o

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by mattwave »

LCF wrote:Well, there's a fair amount of prejudice out there (and it may well have been earned, for all I know!) I vividly remember saying something about DIR in front of the owner of a local tech-oriented shop and having him look at me in consternation and say, "You're not DIR, are you?"
If my memory serves, I think I know who you speak of, and that person has zero ownership of said shop, and was asked to refrain from such comments, eventhough I know he was 100% sarcastic in his remark.
People never see his humor. Unless it was me, then it was a direct pun, just kidding.

Seriously though, I know many divers who's opinions of DIR divers stem from being called a stroke or an abortion, many times publically.

Any thoughts out there supporting that this might be the reason DIR divers get negative press?
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Post by thelawgoddess »

Grateful Diver wrote:
thelawgoddess wrote:
dsteding wrote:Guilty as charged as well, and also totally okay with it. I'd say we are lucky to have the instructors (DIR and non-DIR, Bob and BDub come to mind here) that we do around here.
very lucky.

let's blame our wussiness all on bdub and bob. ;-)
and happy to take the blame ... but neither bdub nor me is DIR ... #-o

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
that's the true beauty of that blame!

on a more "serious" note, i think that's why there are a number of us local divers who have adopted some of the hogarthian "tendencies" without going DIR. you and bdub both teach (whether directly or indirectly) independence of choice, depth of thought, and meaningfulness of preparation, and one of the many things i took away from both of your classes is that diving is for fun, but it might not be very fun for very long if it isn't done safely ... :-)
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Post by dsteding »

mattwave wrote:
Seriously though, I know many divers who's opinions of DIR divers stem from being called a stroke or an abortion, many times publically.

Any thoughts out there supporting that this might be the reason DIR divers get negative press?
Sure, I think the s-word is certainly one of the sources of the negative press. But, I'd venture to say that the younger crew of DIR divers don't use the word seriously, if anything it is in jest and making fun of the people that cam before and did take themselves too seriously.

Like "DIR" it is judgmental, and it is an unfortunate consequence of some of the more arrogant people from which this style of diving came from. I with we could drop both terms from the lexicon.

In the case of "stroke" I do think its use is changing, and is much more tongue-in-cheek now. I've yet to hear it used by a DIR diver in a serious manner, instead, words such as "strokaliphic" "strokalicious" and others have been coined and used in a humorous fashion . . .

I posted about my philosophy on the s-word on Scubaboard a while back, it is a loaded, judgmental term that certainly can still touch a raw nerve, especially for people like you Matt, who were around when it was used in a serious manner. Perhaps those of us that are younger need to remember that.
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Post by dsteding »

Grateful Diver wrote: and happy to take the blame ... but neither bdub nor me is DIR ... #-o

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Indeed, I tried to make that clear there-you don't have to be, call, or subscribe to the DIR way of things to be a safe diver . . .
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Post by dsteding »

Calvin wrote:
This made me laugh ;)


Thanks.
Calvin wrote:
Ok, I'll try to be as honest as self-aware as possible. To tell you the honest truth, I know very little about the local DIR community. The best thing I've read on this thread is this:
Grateful Diver wrote:The best ambassadors of DIR are the ones who don't talk about it ...

[AND]

Lots of people don't know that the majority of the "mentors" who came out for our Big Buddy dives last year were DIR divers. Know why? Because it was never brought up.
If I had my way, this is the way things would be, Bob's approach is a good one. Like it or not, it is easy to form preconceived notions about DIR by reading about it on the internet, but what was eye-opening for me was seeing the skills they had and wanting to learn to dive like that.
Calvin wrote:
So, DIR folk who I've met locally - I probably didn't even know are DIR. The people I've (unrightfully) judged all DIR divers on are the a-holes I've seen telling people what they should and should not do, around the web. I guess first impressions are hard to break, and though it's not right, I don't think I'm alone either.
I think you are spot on here, and I certainly don't blame you for holding to first impressions. Perfectly natural and quite reasonable based on your experiences. I had a feeling many felt this way, which was one of the motivations of this thread. There is a dramatic difference between the blow-hards you see on the internet and the divers you see in the parking lots locally.
Calvin wrote: Come on, for how commonsense most of the practices are, you have to admit - it's a pretty nonsensical and arrogant name, eh?
Yes, it does seem arrogant in the context of our local diving, where many of the practices are commonplace now. But, in the context of cave diving, or even NE wreck diving (wow, there is a can of worms, but read Shadow Divers some time for context . . . ) I think there were instances of people "Doing it Wrong." Legend has it the term came to be in an interview with the WKPP where GI3 was asked why they weren't dying, and he replied, "I guess we are doing it right."
Calvin wrote:
Interestingly, I do remember quite a few instances in which the loudest mouth in the bunch was called out by someone much more knowledgeable - and it turned out that the preaching party was merely regurgitating practices they read somewhere else.
A very good point,, and if I may, another example of how playground politics are playing themselves out in our sport.
Calvin wrote: Hopefully something good comes of this thread. I'm glad you put yourself out there, I don't think any of the other members (who don't know you in person) would've guessed you to be DIR, based on the fact that you don't fit the expectation. ;)
Well, all that being said, I don't know if I'd consider myself "DIR" because when you look at it in detail it becomes a fairly nebulous concept. I try to adopt the appropriate attitude, I believe in team diving, I dive a hogarthian configuration, and I've even cleaned up my life and gotten into shape. All of that is aimed at being a safer diver, but I dunno if I'm "DIR" or not. I am drawn to instructors with GUE/Breakthru Diving training, and do like a lot of the tenants of the system, and someone looking at me may indeed classify me as such. I just want to have fun diving and do it in a safe manner.

Calvin, I'm glad you've participated and shared your thoughts. This is turning into a good discussion. Thank you.
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Re: Perception of the DIR community?

Post by Diver_C »

dsteding wrote:Here is the question: For those non-DIR divers out there, what is your perception of Seattle's DIR community?
My answer, from my limited perspective, is they love simulating cave runs with their lines along Alki, they frequently dive in Lake Wa and other out of the ordinary places to find new wrecks and explore old ones, and they love, love, love their scooters.

And if this question were asked on any other forum, it would be the equivalent of setting off a bunker-busting bomb. Luckily, this place has not evolved in that way.

Have a nice weekend!

Rich
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Post by Grateful Diver »

mattwave wrote: Seriously though, I know many divers who's opinions of DIR divers stem from being called a stroke or an abortion, many times publically.

Any thoughts out there supporting that this might be the reason DIR divers get negative press?
Yes and no ... the problem with the perception is that it's based on a stereotype that was created by people who, in many cases, don't understand what they're talking about (no offense intended, just not a more diplomatic way of putting it).

Here's what I mean by that ... first, ask yourself what constitutes a "DIR diver"?

Is it someone who has taken DIR Fundies, and is still struggling to get his (or her) skills up to the point where they can actually pass the class?

Is it someone who has gone out and purchased all the gear, read everything George Irvine ever wrote, joined every DIR forum on the Internet, and speaks authoratively about minute details that, frankly, most of the diving world doesn't give a crap about?

Is it someone who's initial training was just adequate enough to scare them half to death, and who got into DIR because it gave them some extra tools to make them more comfortable underwater?

Is it someone who ... no matter what they do ... are attracted to a high level of performance, and seek out training and methods that allow them to dive to the level they desire?

The answer is that it's these and a lot more.

Like any other aspect of diving, people are attracted to it for a variety of reasons, use it with varying degrees of competence, and represent themselves to the community at large in ways that are more due to their personality than their training. Frankly, I've met assholes with C-cards from every training agency out there. In fact, some of the most arrogant people I've run into were recently-trained NAUI Techies.

It's a mistake to judge any group of people by the actions of a few.

Relating this to DIR, Calvin may not have realized that more than half the people on the Sechelt trip were DIR divers ... and I think he had a great time diving with and interacting with them. They didn't make a positive impression of DIR because it never came up as an issue ... we were just there to dive and have fun. But let one guy say something off-hand in a parking lot and it colors his impression of DIR ... because that one guy made DIR the issue. Does he speak for all DIR divers? Certainly not.

Another example ... about three years ago I was at Cove 2, gearing up to do a dive with Randy Williams. Those who know Randy know he's one of the most experienced divers in the area. An experienced DIR guy many of us know ... David Kertzmann ... pulled in next to us and came over to talk to us while waiting for his dive buddy to show up. Those who know David can attest that he's one of the most friendly people you'll ever run into at Cove 2 ... always with a smile, and never judgmental about anyone. He's also Tech 2 trained, and one of the more experienced DIR divers around. So eventually his buddy pulled in ... a guy who had recently taken the Fundamentals class and, if I recall correctly, had enlisted David to help him work on skills so that he could go back and pass the class. He comes over and right away starts "correcting" Randy with respect to how he's got his gear set up.

So which one of these guys is the real DIR diver? The experienced, affable, non-judgmental guy ... or the relative newbie who's acting like he just discovered religion?

Which one made the biggest impression with respect to what DIR is all about?

See my point? You can't judge a whole community by the bad actions of a few ... because they're the only ones you'll ever notice. The majority ... the ones who are friendly and helpful ... will only ever strike you as other divers out there sharing the dive site with you. They won't change your impressions of the "DIR community" because for the most part you'll never notice them as DIR divers. You'll only see the loudmouths and arrogant few ... because they reinforce a preconceived stereotype.

We used to have some real "wars" on this topic over on the northwestdiver.com board ... and if you go back about 4 or 5 years, you'll see that I had some of those same preconceived notions. I felt they were valid ... because I had run into a few of the assholes that made them so. It wasn't until later ... when I started to realize just how many of the people I dive with had DIR training ... that I had to change my mind about what the "DIR community" was really all about.

Fact is it ain't any different than any other community ... it's made up of all kinds of different people. Some of them are very likeable and helpful ... some are people you just don't want to be around ... and the majority are somewhere in between. Most just want to go out, dive, and have fun.

In other words, not much different than the rest of the diving community.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by Grateful Diver »

thelawgoddess wrote:diving is for fun, but it might not be very fun for very long if it isn't done safely ... :-)
That is a great quote ... one I may bookmark for future use ... =D>

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by Rob Holman »

This is the same thread that has been on every board since boards began!

What I always take away from it is people are way too concerned with what others think of them, and egos rule this sport (on both sides of the DIR fence).

And Richard, I know you are just jealous over my scooter!
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Post by dsteding »

Great post Bob, I'm glad you are sharing your perspective on this . . .

And, TLG, your quote was almost lost in the shuffle, brilliant as well.
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