Perception of the DIR community?

[LCF]

Oh, thank you, John! I WISH I were cave qualified.

One of the things that GUE does that I think is cool is offer a class to the single tank recreational diver, with no aspirations beyond that, that improves skills, teaches gas management, and emphasizes situational awareness. You can get that from a cavern class, but cavern classes are hard to find in places that don't have caves. And when you take this class from GUE, you are also introduced to the idea that your diving doesn't have to stop there . . . That there are places you can aspire to, and you can GET there, using stuff you're used to, and techniques you've been taught.

When I took Fundies, I told Steve all I wanted was to be the best recreational diver I could be. But as a result of exposure to GUE, I found out about cave diving, and I fell in love with the idea. A year and a half later, I got to DO some cavern diving, and I was very happy I had the skills I had before I went there.

Diving has all kinds of possibilities, but you have to do the training to get the access (cards or no cards). My training emphasized that the doors were open, whether I wanted to step through them or not, and I appreciate that.

[John Rawlings]

And, unfortunately, Jerome's decided to retire from teaching, and as you know he's a first-rate instructor.

We're very fortunate in the PNW to have the choices we do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Believe it or not, the cowboy has not yet ridden off into the sunset! Jerome has decided to accept one last (?) student....Maverick should be beginning his training with him anytime now!

- John

[thelawgoddess]

- You're right, I didn't know that half the boat was DIR, till Doug told me that he aspired to that standard, and upon looking back (at the fact that I was the only person there w/o a BP/W)

well, you weren't the ONLY person without a BPW. long hose maybe. ;-)

[mattwave]

So here is what I realy dont get about the hole D I R debate
does D I R realy stand for Doing It Right or is this just some propaganda started by the folks intimadated by the fact that there may infact be a better and safer way to aproch diving?


Sparky

Good Questions, anyone, anyone?
I still really don't know what DIR is, I read the book, the forums, the reports of past presentations, and listened to the "Experts".
Seems like I have heard several meanings, some support the others, some do not.
My first thought years ago, it was about Bill "Hogarth", or was that it was all about Halcyon and GUE, which I hear has morphed from Oxycheq to DSS - Scubapro to Apeks now I hear it's Atomic, then people say it's all about Wakulla and Gavin Scooters, then it's about Breakthrough Diving, then it's about some guy god knows where doing CCR DIR training?

Is it a copyrighted phrase that belongs to a single agency and manufacurer?

Where does DIR truly get defined?

Who is a DIR diver by the highest standards? Is there any "Grey" areas to those standards? (Reading the book you would think not).

Can anyone out there give an answer that would sit well in the stomachs of the DIR Gods?

[dsteding]

Good Questions, anyone, anyone?
I still really don't know what DIR is, I read the book, the forums, the reports of past presentations, and listened to the "Experts".
Seems like I have heard several meanings, some support the others, some do not.
My first thought years ago, it was about Bill "Hogarth", or was that it was all about Halcyon and GUE, which I hear has morphed from Oxycheq to DSS - Scubapro to Apeks now I hear it's Atomic, then people say it's all about Wakulla and Gavin Scooters, then it's about Breakthrough Diving, then it's about some guy god knows where doing CCR DIR training?

Is it a copyrighted phrase that belongs to a single agency and manufacurer?

Where does DIR truly get defined?

Who is a DIR diver by the highest standards? Is there any "Grey" areas to those standards? (Reading the book you would think not).

Can anyone out there give an answer that would sit well in the stomachs of the DIR Gods?

Perhaps a subject better suited to a new thread, as the conversation has meandered far enough away from this topic.

Maybe the MODs can split this, I'll take a stab, but there are far more knowledgable people on this board regarding this subject.

It isn't, as Matt seems to be suggesting, about brands of gear. The gear configuration is certainly noticable, but I see it as a holistic approach to diving centered on a safe attitude and approach to diving. That necessarily involves an emphasis on the team and skills, standardized procedures, and a conservative approach to dives.

A good description of DIR can be found here, I think that says it better than I could.

[mattwave]

A good description of DIR can be found here, I think that says it better than I could.

Are you saying that description sits well in the stomachs of the DIR Gods?

[mattwave]

I believe that the questions I raised if answered might gain some traction regarding the initial questions of your thread.

[runamonk]

I believe that the questions I raised if answered might gain some traction regarding the initial questions of your thread.

It always cracks me up when you play naive.

How's Dan coming with the toys I dropped off?

[dsteding]

Are you saying that description sits well in the stomachs of the DIR Gods?

Honestly, I am not in touch (nor do I care to be) with the gastrointestinal proclivities of the "DIR Gods."

[thelawgoddess]

i'm not sure i would call them DIR "gods" any more than i'd call PADI's or NAUI's rulemakers "gods" ... but for those interested in some more background, you might read this essay: The DIR Philosophy By Jarrod Jablonski (as far as i have noticed, jablonski's "Doing it Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving" is a required text for all of GUE's courses.)

as you read, you might keep in mind that in his conclusion he writes: "There will always be new equipment for people to obsess over and there will always be people arguing over how that equipment should be configured."

[Tom Nic]

Honest, honest question here, this is not a troll and is not meant to get anyone steaming . . . but I think it is a worthwhile topic for conversation on this board.

Here is the question: For those non-DIR divers out there, what is your perception of Seattle's DIR community?

Go ahead and be honest.

Having been taken under the mentorship of that group early in my dive career, I find myself being on the "inside" looking out, so to speak. I've had conversations with non-DIR divers over the past few months that I found surprising, and that got me thinking.

I am certainly aware of the past internet perception of DIR, so I'd like to not rehash that. But, if that has colored your opinions of local DIR divers, it may be relevant. Share stories, opinions, feelings, go ahead and be blunt.

My goal here is to simply get a feeling for how this sub-group of our local community is percieved as a whole. I honestly don't have any agenda beyond that, I am just curious.

Pretty much most of what I was going to say has been said, but here goes anyway, with my "flavor". This thread has had many good & civil responses, and probably doesn't need my .02 psi worth, but I promised to add it anyway, so here goes.

Dsteding's original question (quoted above, and directed at NON-DIR divers) was about perceptions, so that is where I will go. I have no interest in attacking or defending any agency or training, I just want to be a good and safe diver that has fun in the process. I dive very conservatively, try to be as safe as I can, and am constantly learning from everyone I dive with, including buddies that I have dozens of dives with. The minute I'm not having fun, I'm done. There are lots of safer and cheaper hobbies out there, so for me doing it right means having fun and being as safe as I can be within my budget and training.

A few points have been made that bear passing mention -

First there is a perceived and real arrogance just in the name "DIR" that get's people's hackles up right off the bat. As an instructor / friend said to me months ago, "I am a safe diver, and an experienced and good diver with over 800 dives. I resent the implication because I don't dive the way they do with their configuration that I am not doing it right and am therefore unsafe." Is that a fair statement? Perhaps yes when it comes to some DIR folks, perhaps no when it comes to others, but again, this thread was about perceptions, not to debate the merits of specific tenets of DIR / GUE.

Secondly, anecdotes abound of being on a charter with two or more DIR divers that are cold, standoffish, and quietly (or loudly) critical under their breath about the gear configs, etc of other divers on the boat. Does this happen alot? My guess is no, but when you have a strong strike one because of the name of your agency, all you need is a few times like the one I referenced that then get repeated and you have bad press that is difficult to overcome. My guess is that there are many more times that reflect the experience that Calvin referenced that is actually very positive, but just like the news it is mainly the negative or sensational that gets repeated. Fair? Perhaps yes when it comes to some and no when it comes to others, but again, this thread is about perceptions.

Thirdly, my guess is that the diving in general, and the GUE philosophy / school in particular attract detail oriented gear heads with strong personalities and stronger opinions who aren't necessarily the best or most diplomatic at expressing those opinions. As has been mentioned before, a jerk is a jerk regardless of the agency they are certified with. This thread is about perceptions, and I think some people are perceived as jerks because of the way they express their (probably great) opinions. Fair? For some yes, for some no, but again, the point of the thread is perceptions.

An example of a gear discussion where this can be perceived as negative is a past thread where different lighting choices were being discussed. Opinions were given, most of them well thought out and ultimately helpful for those newer divers trying to make a choice within their parameters (budget, preferences, etc.) My buddy dives a cannister light, loves it, and I love his cannister light too! I dive a Light Cannon (the best light I could afford) clipped to my BC. Sometimes I let it dangle so I can do something else with my gear. I'm sure it's "flashed" my buddy more than once. He looks, sees I'm OK, and off he goes. He does not panic, rush to donate his reg, and try and "rescue" me, nor does it ruin his dive with unwelcome adrenalin. But the opinions shared on the thread left me, and I'll bet others, with the impression that if you have a clipped on pistol grip light (the VAST MAJORITY of PNW divers!) that you will be causing panic attacks for the divers that are doing it right because of accidentally flashing them with a dangling light. Fair? Probably not.... but again we are talking about perceptions here. I'd love a cannister light! Can't afford one, and i'll bet a bunch of other PNW divers are in the same boat! (I'd rather spend the scuba units on a couple of new 130's, which is a whole other discussion!) If in your training you started out with a cannister light and never even dove with a pistol grip light it would be easy to come off in a superior way to other (the majority) of divers. Intentional? I doubt it. Arrogant? Most likely not, but that can be the perception, even though we're just talking gear. ( I am NOT trolling for, nor do I need, an apology! It's all cool, I'm just giving an illustration!)

I mentioned, and dsteding asked why, some folks are "afraid" or reluctant to even enter into the discussion. Nobody likes being ridiculed and most people don't enjoy conflict, written or verbal. Even though the request of this thread was for reasons for perceptions many people feel that it's just going to start a flame war so I think I'll just stay out. You'll notice that the vast majority of those who have responded are (apprently to some) DIR divers or sympathetic to the agency. (This may not actually be true, but again, we're talking perceptions here! Another great reason to TALK with, not just to, each other!) There are reasons for that, one of which I noted above. (Another is no doubt the size of this thread, which exploded to several pages in a few days. It's a LONG read, and some people just don't have the time!)

Inevitably the things posted can be perceived as attacks by those who appreciate or embrace a philosophy. They are not. At least I don't think so, not in the context of this very specific thread. If I started in on someone at a dive site it would be, but I haven't done so, and just haven't seen it done in my short experience. No doubt others have. Several of the responses have ended up being a defense of DIR at some level, and that's OK, but it wasn't really a thread about specifics of the philosphy, just a thread about perceptions.

In the last couple of months I have switched from a short hose and octo to a long hose and necklaced back up. I love it! I was "sold" by a good friend and other divers who talked, let me test things, and just in general espoused the benefits of something that they enjoy. I am on a very limited budget, and do not have the luxury of changing my gear config for a really good reason, let alone a whim. Is long hose "DIR"? Of course not. Is it for everyone? No. You can dive (IMO) quite safely without it. It does make sense to me after diving for awhile, enough for me to spend hard earned scuba units making the switch. I found it interesting that when I ordered a long hose and a reg for my secondary in my LDS the reaction was "You're not becoming one of those, are you?" It was said with a smile, but again, this thread is about perceptions, and the negative feelings run deep, and are no doubt somewhat judgmental the other way. (I was not hassled for my config, and most of the LDS employees I've met are willing to talk about the pros and cons in their opinion of different gear configs, acknowledging that it comes down ultimately to personal choice and comfort. Doing It Right? I don't think so...) Fair? Sometimes no doubt yes, and sometimes no, but this thread is about perceptions.

Divers have been mentioned here that are very good and safe divers who willingly and sensitively share their knowledge with others. I love taking newer divers "under my wing" so to speak and help pass on the little that I have learned. I'm around lots of divers who have the same attitude. I have met very few jerks (a couple) while diving, and a few people that I would be reluctant to dive with again (a couple), but for the most part the PNW divers I've been around are great people and safe and competent divers and fairly nice folks. More people are influenced by genuinely nice people who care about other divers and are willing to actually dive and work with them than by hundreds of jerks on their soapbox ranting... even if their rant is valid. And isn't Becoming Better Divers the bottom line? There are A TON of people getting certified at local dive shops, and that is a good thing. It would be great if their training / agency made them perfectly accomplished divers out of the chute. The reality is something else. They really need mentoring and help if they are to continue diving and doing it safely. And that's where existing, regularly diving divers come in.

In fairness, no one HAS to be an influencer of other divers. You didn't sign up to be an instructor or mentor. But those who take that on willingly and caringly can have HUGE influence and ultimately save lives. And the truth is that each diver influences others... in one way or another... for ill or for good.

Thanks again to the many great folks and divers I've had the privilege of interacting with, and thanks to those who keep this board a great place to be to learn and hook up and go diving!

(Tom steps off his soap box and takes a deep breath. Nothing said above was intended to attack or otherwise torque anybody off!)

[dsteding]

Tom-

A very well composed, reasoned, thoughtful post. Thank you for for that. I'm very glad you decided to post, and that you took the time to think things out.

You are correct, I was driving at perceptions, because of the points that you raise. There is one big strike against DIR just because of its name, and another because of the stories of the DIR divers on boats. A third, IMHO, is its internet history, which is less than stellar.

Trust me, my intent (as I noted in my first post) was to not start a flame-war. I figured this board was probably the only one that could stand to have a civil discussion on this topic, and I phrased things carefully in hopes that we would do so. Your post in that regard is a very valuable perspective.

Honestly, as I move closer to fundies I find myself increasingly alienated by non-DIR divers. I find this ironic because I've NEVER seriously questioned their own approach to diving. Some have admittedly given me what I thought was good-natured ribbing about "drinking kool-aid" and "going to the dark-side" to which I admittedly responded with the s-word and likewise given them what I figured was good-natured ribbing. But, once I made my commitment to taking fundies, I noticed a much more serious and hostile attitude towards me personally. I'll chalk the prejudice that is increasingly aimed at me personally up to perceptions I can't change, and that indeed may be justified based on past experience. At the same time, I want to be aware of those perceptions and the cause of them, so I don't unknowingly contribute to them.

There are lots of very well-qualified instructors out there, for me, fundies offers a clear path forward to the training I am interested in (technical and cave) as well as a formal education in a style of diving that makes sense for me. I'd fancy myself a thinking diver, and because I've had mentors from a variety of backgrounds who have been more than generous with being willing to dive and offer advice to this newbie, I'll pay it forward down the line. Does that mean only DIR divers for me? Of course not . . . as long as my buddies are safe (and there is more than one way to be safe) I'll happily dive with them.

[mattwave]

Are you saying that description sits well in the stomachs of the DIR Gods?

Honestly, I am not in touch (nor do I care to be) with the gastrointestinal proclivities of the "DIR Gods."

Naivety is Bliss!

On a serious note (which is difficult for me to get on) examining this thread again, my previous silt cloud (no pun Doug) may be best suited for another thread which as history repreats; this topic will never appease everyone's dubiety.

Really though my opinion of DIR Diving is naive, I know many GUE divers and they seem to be all very nice, polite, fun to talk to individuals.
To that regard I love DIR divers, but I still lack the final puzzle piece to what DIR diving is, and I really don't have the interest to fill that piece.
Which as Doug pointed out might be best for another Thread here.

[Tom Nic]

Tom-

A very well composed, reasoned, thoughtful post. Thank you for for that. I'm very glad you decided to post, and that you took the time to think things out.

Thank you!

Trust me, my intent (as I noted in my first post) was to not start a flame-war. I figured this board was probably the only one that could stand to have a civil discussion on this topic, and I phrased things carefully in hopes that we would do so.

Your post was not offensive in any way, was carefully presented, and you did a great job "shepherding" the responses and thread along in a positive way. Way to go!

Honestly, as I move closer to fundies I find myself increasingly alienated by non-DIR divers. I find this ironic because I've NEVER seriously questioned their own approach to diving. Some have admittedly given me what I thought was good-natured ribbing about "drinking kool-aid" and "going to the dark-side" to which I admittedly responded with the s-word and likewise given them what I figured was good-natured ribbing.

That is unfortunate, and as I mentioned, no doubt the prejudice runs both ways. Just because I've been treated ill by a jerk does not give me license to become one myself. Hopefully most the crap you're taking is rooted in people saying "I value you as a friend / person and hope that you don't become a jerk by hanging around with them." Of course I don't know, but I'll bet that is the root behind at least a good portion of what you're hearing. You may never have directly questioned their approach to diving, but DIR, just by it's name and it's associations has and does. I suspect that is the main reason behind their reactions.

There are lots of very well-qualified instructors out there, for me, fundies offers a clear path forward to the training I am interested in (technical and cave) as well as a formal education in a style of diving that makes sense for me.

I haven't heard anyone question the actual training anyone receives in fundies. (may have happened, I just haven't heard it. I have heard people take issue with phraseology - "strokes" - and attitudes.) If I were considering going technical and cave this discussion would take on a whole different tone. At some point I have to choose practices and training that are going to offer the best chance of keeping me alive, and at that point I really don't care what other people think about my "attititude". That being said, I still don't need to be a jerk, and learn best by civil discussion and listening to others. There are at least a few divers on this board who are proficient tech divers, nice people and mentors, who are not GUE. Perhaps conversations with them can offer a valuable perspective which you may or may not have. I cannot speak for them and would not... but perhaps a well placed PM or dive site conversation can be valuable!

Thanks again for the good conversation, and good luck in your diving pursuits whereever they may take you!

[dsteding]

That is unfortunate, and as I mentioned, no doubt the prejudice runs both ways. Just because I've been treated ill by a jerk does not give me license to become one myself. Hopefully most the crap you're taking is rooted in people saying "I value you as a friend / person and hope that you don't become a jerk by hanging around with them." Of course I don't know, but I'll bet that is the root behind at least a good portion of what you're hearing. You may never have directly questioned their approach to diving, but DIR, just by it's name and it's associations has and does. I suspect that is the main reason behind their reactions.

I'm sure this is what is going on, and I imagine we'll get through things. People's perceptions are strongly shaped by their past experiences, I for one, value those connections enough to look past some of the comments and will continue to foster relationships in the dive community that aren't guided by what agency you train or don't train with.

There are at least a few divers on this board who are proficient tech divers, nice people and mentors, who are not GUE. Perhaps conversations with them can offer a valuable perspective which you may or may not have. I cannot speak for them and would not... but perhaps a well placed PM or dive site conversation can be valuable!

An excellent point. FWIW, I've really enjoyed all the instructors I've worked with, be it the PADI instructor that I took OW with in Thailand, Bob, who has taught me Nitrox and AOW, Joe Talavera, who I've taken a seminar from, or Steve White, the local GUE instructor. I think we are lucky to have good instructors in this area.

Thanks again for the positive conversation Tom, I've added you to the list of people I have to dive with.

[CaptnJack]

For Matt and others:
DIR and essay by Peter Steinhoff
http://www.direxplorers.com/new-dir-art ... essay.html

and "How DIR got its Name" by George Irvine
http://www.direxplorers.com/new-dir-art ... -name.html

Both a pretty mild. Lots of other good information on that site.

[RSdancey]

There's another anti-DIR issue out there that doesn't get discussed regularly:

DIR is tough on SCUBA dive shops.

Local shops have a 3 part business model. They sell fills, they host classes and they sell gear. GUE/DIR interferes with a lot of that business model.

First, GUE promotes the use of standard gasses. Getting an EAN32 fill is not hard; lots of stores can do it. Gettting a trimix fill? Now you're cutting the number of stores who can provide those fills down to just a handful. And with 30/30, GUE is teaching people to use a trimix fill on dives that many stores used to provide EAN fills for.

The GUE system of independent instructors puts a lot more money in the instructors hands, and does little to tie them to specific retailers, than the PADI alternative. A GUE instructor can change venues and a lot of students will follow. When PADI instructor changes venues, most students keep scheduling classes through the store, taking whatever instructor is available.

And the gear thing is the real killer. Most local stores don't stock backplates & wings, so if someone goes DIR, they lose that sale. And backplates are essentially indestructible. You need a new canvas & nylon BC every 3-5 years. I'll never need a new backplate. The BC business is all about adding features, but the GUE/DIR philosophy is about simplification -- you can't sell features to a community of divers who are trying to get stuff off their rigs.

GUE/DIR divers don't buy fancy new fins every year. We don't buy fancy new masks every year. We don't buy whistles, mirrors, blinkers, tank bangers, light sticks, etc. every year.

There are expensive items that GUE/DIR divers buy, like cannister lights, but most stores don't stock them. The drysuit/undergarment business is a pretty good one, but only a couple of stores in the local area are set up to do custom orders.

All in all, I suspect that when a store sees a diver "go DIR", they figure they just lost a whole lot of money. That has to create a subtle undercurrent that infects the staff. To them, DIR is a threat to their livelihoods so it generates a lot of bias.

Ryan

[lamont]

Its kind of funny how the less interested a diver is in being a DIR diver, the more interested they are in trying to define what it means....

If I had to take a shot at it:

- Its technical / cave / hogarthian.
- It is heavily focused on team diving.
- It is both aggressive while being extremely risk averse.
- It is what is taught by GUE and employed by the WKPP.

Mix well and sift the history of GI3 and the techdiver list into it, bake at 350 for a few hours and you've roughly got DIR...

[Joshua Smith]

Its kind of funny how the less interested a diver is in being a DIR diver, the more interested they are in trying to define what it means....

If I had to take a shot at it:

- Its technical / cave / hogarthian.
- It is heavily focused on team diving.
- It is both aggressive while being extremely risk averse.
- It is what is taught by GUE and employed by the WKPP.

Mix well and sift the history of GI3 and the techdiver list into it, bake at 350 for a few hours and you've roughly got DIR...

Minus the GUE, GI3, and WKKP stuff, you could say all of that applies to what I'm learning from TDI (love all the acronyms!). To the uninitiated, my kit looks DIR, w/ the longhose, bp/w, etc. A lot of people think GUE invented that stuff.

[GillyWeed]

Well perceptions were asked for so here is my .002psi..

The only experiance that I have had with any DIR divers is with Ryan (rsdancy), Delaina (bubblemkr) and Tim (diver c) on my boat dive a few months back. I had honestly never even heard of DIR until then. And honestly my frirst thought was what the heck? I feel I 'do it right' and I am safe so what's with the name? But I don't feel I have a right to tell anybody else how to dive either, so that was about the only thing that I didn't get. A rose by any other name......

I did get some reactions of people whom I have learned from and been mentored by and they don't necessarily agree with some of the gear configurations, so for me that was good enough. I'll stick with what I feel comfortable with. I will dive the gear that I feel good with that I know and that I can be safe in. I will always try to learn and always practice my skills. Do I want to be a tech diver? No. I am happy with the diving I do. I don't need to go to the deepest depths or the darkest caves. Do I know that I shouldn't dive with other divers who are unsafe. Yes. Would I tell someone if I thought they were doing something unsafe? Yeah I probabaly would and I have.. So I guess I agree with some of the pricipals that I have heard about DIR but I don't know enough about it. I only know what the people I usually dive with and feel safe with feel and so I will leave the rest of my perceptions until later when I actually have some... =)

Was it nice having some DIR peeps on my boat with me? Heck yeah! That was my #100 dive whoot whoot and it was a lot of fun. Did they try to convert me to the 'dark side'? No, they are all three really nice people. Like most divers out there.


This was a pretty long thread and it took me a while to get through so if I am repeating what someone else has already said.. I am sorry because I did skim some of it. I was sick last week so I am a little behind times..

Oh and BTW I only post on this board because everyone says the others are so bad for flaming.. And yes everyone here is super nice and conciderate! So I guess I am an elitest, I only like nice people. hee hee

[Sounder]

And just for the record... Diver C is Rich, not Tim. I'm glad you met those three - great people and all are on my list of favorite buddies... well, except Tim. ](*,)

[lamont]

Its kind of funny how the less interested a diver is in being a DIR diver, the more interested they are in trying to define what it means....

If I had to take a shot at it:

- Its technical / cave / hogarthian.
- It is heavily focused on team diving.
- It is both aggressive while being extremely risk averse.
- It is what is taught by GUE and employed by the WKPP.

Mix well and sift the history of GI3 and the techdiver list into it, bake at 350 for a few hours and you've roughly got DIR...

Minus the GUE, GI3, and WKKP stuff, you could say all of that applies to what I'm learning from TDI (love all the acronyms!). To the uninitiated, my kit looks DIR, w/ the longhose, bp/w, etc. A lot of people think GUE invented that stuff.

The heavy focus on team diving and (to some probably excessive) focus on risk aversion is what tends to discriminate between GUE and other technicial agencies. The heavy focus on standardization for the sake of standardization is also a discriminator.

My background as a system engineer at a huge site set me up to be attracted to those aspects of DIR/GUE and not to TDI/IANTD/NAUI/etc. My view on the standardization is that its like a library where I can reuse code without having to write and debug it all myself. I'm also used to standardization across servers reducing failures (just keeping time across 30,000 servers is difficult without high degrees of standardization) and standardization reducing MTTR because people aren't surprised by odd configs when debugging an issue. The risk aversion fits with the way I think because I've been conditioned by having been bit by 1% problems that would affect a couple of servers at most sites but which would crash 300 machines where I worked. But at the same time I used to routinely bounce 30,000 ssh servers over night by pushing out new config changes or daemons to them, and I have an aggressive side to my personality.

So, when I look at the rationale behind a lot of the GUE/DIR stuff I grok it immediately. Other people don't see the point and wonder what the big deal is... Which is all okay because there's a whole lot of water out there which doesn't care what certification agency you get your training from...

And when it comes to all the internet b.s. I'm also conditioned to be able to aggressively ignore most of that because I'm used to having RMS and ESR and all the Linux zealots on slashdot "on my side" as it were...

[Dmitchell]

There's another anti-DIR issue out there that doesn't get discussed regularly:

DIR is tough on SCUBA dive shops.

Ryan

Your right to a point. Shops are having to change business models no doubt. but keep in mind, When I jump for an O/C Trimix dive, I have 5 or 6 regulators, and a whole bunch of other stuff that adds up to about $10,000 at retail price.

I'm fortunate enough to own my shop, but for the average diver and dive shop it's much more lucrative to have a diver move on to tech than not.

When my buddy first started tech diving, I laughed at him and his 7' hose now we all use them.

2 years ago, I wouldn't have had a BP/W in stock, now I have 3 and one in rentals (more in rentals soon). Dive shops need to realize that "tech" is here to stay and there is alot of merit to the Hogartian gear configuration.

I teach PADI Openwater classes and in the pool, I use my BP/W with a standard hose setup because there are skills that need to be taught to OW divers with a short hose. When I hit the O/W, I use my reg(s) with the long hose. I then of course explain to my student's the what, whys and hows, when we get to the dive site.

I once had a manufactures rep tell me that shops the went "Tech" were shooting themselves in the foot and the average OW Student didn't need to see all that confusing stuff. SCUBA was foreign enough and tech just freaked them out. My reply was how can you take that stance when I have 5 regs on a tech dive. His response was it's 2% of the market.

That's all changed now and I'm sure his attitude has changed as well.

As far as fills are concerned, Standardize your gasses no problem, I'll gladly mix whatever mix you want. The margin on a trimix fill is much better than an air or nitrox fill.

Once you start seriously tech diving, the equipment list never ends you always want something else. I told someone the other day that I wanted 5 backplates so I didn't need to keep changing my gear back in fourth between o/c single, o/c doubles and my rebreather. I currently personally own 5 regs and "need" 3 more along with a host of other things.

Shops need to embrace technical diving but, they need to do it in a positive manner and understand that a large percentage of thier customers will not be interested in tech and that they aren't bad divers just because they don't use a certain gear configuration.

[Grateful Diver]

The heavy focus on team diving and (to some probably excessive) focus on risk aversion is what tends to discriminate between GUE and other technicial agencies. The heavy focus on standardization for the sake of standardization is also a discriminator.

My background as a system engineer at a huge site set me up to be attracted to those aspects of DIR/GUE and not to TDI/IANTD/NAUI/etc. My view on the standardization is that its like a library where I can reuse code without having to write and debug it all myself. I'm also used to standardization across servers reducing failures (just keeping time across 30,000 servers is difficult without high degrees of standardization) and standardization reducing MTTR because people aren't surprised by odd configs when debugging an issue. The risk aversion fits with the way I think because I've been conditioned by having been bit by 1% problems that would affect a couple of servers at most sites but which would crash 300 machines where I worked. But at the same time I used to routinely bounce 30,000 ssh servers over night by pushing out new config changes or daemons to them, and I have an aggressive side to my personality.

So, when I look at the rationale behind a lot of the GUE/DIR stuff I grok it immediately. Other people don't see the point and wonder what the big deal is... Which is all okay because there's a whole lot of water out there which doesn't care what certification agency you get your training from...

And when it comes to all the internet b.s. I'm also conditioned to be able to aggressively ignore most of that because I'm used to having RMS and ESR and all the Linux zealots on slashdot "on my side" as it were...

Running this through the "plain language translator" it comes out as ...

... DIR appeals to geeks ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[lamont]

Running this through the "plain language translator" it comes out as ...

... DIR appeals to geeks ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

close 'nuff...

...

although s/geeks/alpha geeks/ might be more accurate... =)