Unsafe at any Depth: PADI Scuba Diver

Sergeant Pepper · Post by **Sergeant Pepper** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:24 am

I'm not a PADI basher, not because my certification is from them, but because I'm just not a basher. However, I have long suspected that even my Advanced Open Water training was on the significantly weak side. It's disappointing to think that all of the certifications given are for commercial interests, and not necessarily in the interest of the divers. Diving should be taken more seriously by the certifying organizations. I know this has been discussed previously, but I came across this article, so I thought I would post it. I think I'll sign up for more training... elsewhere.

http://www.cdnn.info/news/editorial/o050620.html

BbbleMkr · Post by **BbbleMkr** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:33 am

I'm with you Senor Pepper. I didn't feel very confident or safe with the Open Water and Advanced Open Water classes. It's only been through repetition and debriefings with buddies after nervous making situations that I've gained some competency.

Classwise--Scooters, cliques and perception aside, the GUE/DIR Fundies class was the best I've ever taken. Diver C is taking it at the end of May if you can fit it in.

dd

LCF · Post by **LCF** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:47 am

I was pretty woefully inept at the end of my OW class . . . And it was a good, and comparatively long one. I never successfully completed a descent without hanging onto my instructor's BC. I had no buoyancy control -- Ask Bob!

So I took AOW in hopes of improving things. I got five more dives in, but didn't really learn much.

A few dives with Bob did more than my AOW to render me more or less safe, and DIR-F at 60 dives started me on the road to actual competence.

Tom Nic · Post by **Tom Nic** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:54 am

Hmmm.... no flame wars with the DIR threads... perhaps we can start one with a PADI thread? Hope not....

Although I guess we had the "perceptions" venting thread with DIR divers so it's only fair to do the same for other agencies? $\:D/$ Or we could just go diving!

Please note that the above article refers to the (IMHO) rediculous PADI scuba diver cert... kind of a pre-open water thing that is crazy... again IMHO. It is not saying that a PADI open water certified diver is "unsafe at any depth".... which it can appear from the title of the thread.

Almost any newly certified diver is a bit scary in my opinion... regardless of the certifying agency. I think of all the instructors I've heard repeat the mantra "When you're an instructor you're diving solo." Everyone needs to dive and to improve their skills. There are lots of weaknesses in the PADI system... which is what I think Sarge was referring to as well.

Marketing is a powerful force in scuba... kind of a catch 22 really. We want good equipment and less expensive equipment and if there isn't an "industry" that can make money producing that equipment we would go back to the 50's and a handful of divers doing stuff out of their garages. And PADI is a marketing machine... which can have it's good points and its bad.

Once again it is about the quality and conscientiousness of your instructor(s) regardless of the agency on their instructor card. And it is about mentoring other divers, paying it forward as it were, taking newer divers out and helping them be better, safer divers.

Sergeant Pepper · Post by **Sergeant Pepper** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:04 am

Yes, yes, no flame wars please.

I do understand that the article is about the "Scuba Diver" certification, and not an "Open Water"... "Scuba Diver" is now defunct as I understand it. Even with my AOW, I felt a little inept, and it has only been through diving that I have realized how inept. You know the old saying ... "The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know."

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:05 am

I don't know of any agency who teaches unsafe diving... we've had that discussion before. My personal opinion is that a Discover Scuba should be the only resort course and be the only course that is less than a full OW cert. OW classes run the spectrum of quality too based on the shop and instructor... unfortunately, like real estate agents, consumers do not know enough to interview who they hire to provide this service.

Quality of class/instructor is, perhaps, the largest difference between prepared/skilled divers and unsafe divers. I have seen OW divers who could out-dive their "divemaster" guides and have been involved in rescues of OW divers who clearly missed a large portion of the course material... but who still had a c-card. From a marketing and sales perspective, getting as many students through their class as possible makes the most money... but from a business and safety side, you can't afford to have bad press of accidents and certainly shouldn't give a false sense of confidence to new divers because they hold a card saying they're a "scuba diver."

It's interesting to me that PADI would promote this "OW light" class and I'm looking forward to reading what some of the PADI instructors here have to say about this. The article is clearly anti-PADI, and while they are the agency with the 40fsw certification, I believe this is part of a larger discussion surrounding sub-par training from instructors of all agencies. There are good instructors and good-enough instructors in every agency.

My 2 psi.

Diver_C · Post by **Diver_C** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:23 am

Yes, there is no "scuba diver" certification any longer.

I think there are two very important factors regarding beginning lessons, open water and advance, - what is the diving environment, and the instructor and their staff.

Diving in warm, clear water is a whole different atmosphere versus cold, murky, silty water. Easy to go from cold to warm, but the reverse not necessarily true. Easy to seem like a competent diver in warm water too. Luckily, I think, learning here is the best environment, because is on the tougher side of the scale.

My open water instructor and his staff were excellent! They knew their stuff, they knew how important it was for the students to learn, and made sure we learned it. The class wasn't about just getting through the materials and class. It was about learning to be a competent open water diver. Not everyone passed our class. If I get the opportunity, I will divemaster for this instructor. Have absolutely no issues with PADI as taught by this instructor, and would recommend him to anyone.

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:25 am

Random thoughts ...

- That's an old article ... seems to me there was much discussion on it 3 or 4 years ago.

- CDNN is not the most reliable place to get your scuba news and views ... they're much too sensationalist, and often beholden to commercial interests. Not what I'd call objective.

- It really is all about the instructor. FWIW - one of the very best instructors I've ever worked with is Don Peterson ... he's PADI.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Cwest · Post by **Cwest** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:47 pm

CDNN is not the most reliable place to get your scuba news and views ... they're much too sensationalist, and often beholden to commercial interests. Not what I'd call objective.

And they seem to hate PADI and D.A.N.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:56 pm

Cwest wrote:
CDNN is not the most reliable place to get your scuba news and views ... they're much too sensationalist, and often beholden to commercial interests. Not what I'd call objective.
And they seem to hate PADI and D.A.N.

CDNN has alot of axes to grind. And they hide behind the internet after ripping off other people's literary and photographic work. Please avoid clinking on them and sending them a fraction of a penny.

Richard

edited spelling...

John Rawlings · Post by **John Rawlings** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:52 pm

CaptnJack wrote:
Cwest wrote:
CDNN is not the most reliable place to get your scuba news and views ... they're much too sensationalist, and often beholden to commercial interests. Not what I'd call objective.
And they seem to hate PADI and D.A.N.
CDNN has alot of axes to grind. And they hide behind the internet after ripping off other people's lierary and photographic work. Please avoid clinking on them and sending them a fraction of a penny.

Richard

Agreed. CDNN depends on a steady flow of brand new divers flocking to their website in their initial burst of enthusiasm for anything and everything to do with diving. After a while, though, those divers realize that CDNN is the "National Enquirer" (actually worse) of the diving world.

Anything coming from CDNN must be viewed with an extremely jaundiced eye....the reader must always wonder if:

1) It's even true at all.

2) It's actually true but written with a specific agenda in mind, omitting all other "troublesome" facts.

3) It's someone else's work plagarized and used without their permission.

Best not to even go there....

- John

Tom Nic · Post by **Tom Nic** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:11 pm

Wow! Very interesting! Thanks for the perspective! I wouldn't have a clue otherwise... Thanks!

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:17 pm

John Rawlings wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:
Cwest wrote:
CDNN is not the most reliable place to get your scuba news and views ... they're much too sensationalist, and often beholden to commercial interests. Not what I'd call objective.
And they seem to hate PADI and D.A.N.
CDNN has alot of axes to grind. And they hide behind the internet after ripping off other people's lierary and photographic work. Please avoid clinking on them and sending them a fraction of a penny.

Richard
Agreed. CDNN depends on a steady flow of brand new divers flocking to their website in their initial burst of enthusiasm for anything and everything to do with diving. After a while, though, those divers realize that CDNN is the "National Enquirer" (actually worse) of the diving world.

Anything coming from CDNN must be viewed with an extremely jaundiced eye....the reader must always wonder if:

1) It's even true at all.

2) It's actually true but written with a specific agenda in mind, omitting all other "troublesome" facts.

3) It's someone else's work plagarized and used without their permission.

Best not to even go there....

- John

Yes. I don't know how many of you know of Leigh Bishop, but he's a highly regarded UK wreck diver and deep diving pioneer- check out the upper right corner of his home page-

http://www.deepimage.co.uk/wrecks/brita ... images.htm

Look around the rest of his site, too- he has some amazing photos of deep wrecks on there. These pictures from the Britanic are positively haunting....some of the most beautifull I've ever seen.....

Sergeant Pepper · Post by **Sergeant Pepper** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:48 pm

Wow Nailer, those are some nice wreck pictures. Thanks for the education about CDNN John.

John Rawlings · Post by **John Rawlings** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:05 pm

Great link, Nailer!

Shortly after Leigh Bishop (who occasionally writes for ADM, by the way!) caught CDNN stealing his photos and called them on it, they embarked on a crusade to destroy his reputation in the diving world, accusing him of looting wrecks and stealing artifacts.

I expect that if you go on CDNN and do a search for "Leigh Bishop" that all KINDS of crap will come up....but then, I don't WANT to encourage anyone to use their site. HA!

- John

Pinkpadigal · Post by **Pinkpadigal** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:58 am

Here is some info from a PADI instructor...yeah, me.

Discover Scuba: Pool/OW dive that introduces people to diving. This is also referred to as a "resort course". It is basically night 1 of the open water course.

Scuba Diver: half of the PADI open water course. It goes through nights 1,2,3 and has 2 open water dives. It is still available and is taught a lot of places around the world. You are limited to 40 feet, however, you are restricted to diving with an instructor or divemaster. This card, if shown would not allow you to rent gear or tanks. Most people get this cert if limited on time. It is popular on cruise ships. They are then encouraged to finish their training with their local PADI dive center. It is not a popular certification and I see these rarely. The good thing about this course is that it goes beyond the normal resort course and actually teaches skills.

Open Water Diver: Standard course we all know. 5 pool sessions, 4 open water dives. C-Card allows you to dive with a buddy to 60 feet.

It is funny this comes up. Me and Sounder were having this discussion last week. IMHO is every diver needs to start from the begining and continue their education, at least through rescue. It does matter what agency you start or finish with, they all promote safe diving. As many of you have said, it is about the instructor, not the agency.

That article was a poorly written blog, at best. He didn't do his homework, just shot off his mouth about how bad PADI is. His statistics are incorrect. This "blog" just shows the ignorance of the writer.

bnboly · Post by **bnboly** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:41 am

Unsafe at any depth... Is it the instructor's responsibility to make sure all his or her's divers do not go beyond their cert level? No, it is the diver's responsibility! It is the diver who is unsafe when they make a conscious decision to dive beyond their abilities.

I've gone with PADI so far.... And so far I have had excellent instructors except for 1 - that was for my advanced class - it was a hurry up and lets go.... not very good. When I spoke with the shop they were not very helpful - of course it was their folks - but when I spoke with my OW instructor he made time to take me out and do all the AOW dives the right way.