GPO Input needed!

[Grateful Diver]

I do not spearfish, but I did live in an area where the large fishing lobby did a pretty good job of limiting what and where you could dive (NE/Maine). We are losing dive spots here due to creosol cleanups, I would hate to start losing them because fisherman are feeling that their spots are being threatened.

Ohhhh, make no mistake. Fisherman DO believe that their fishing rights are being taken from them. And in MANY cases they are.
We are currently asking the local Sport fishing community to let us shut down certain dive spots to harvesting of GPO's.. which is a good thing. IMO.. but then we have certain divers going before the WDFW and asking to shut down Sportfishing opportunites in the unfounded name of "conservation" which translates into more of a political agenda rather than facts.

How reseptive do you think they are going to be? Hard for them to belive us when we tell them that we "Just" want to protect the GPO's in our dive spots huh?? Why should they?

Sport fisherman are a massive group, like our local dive population. We should be working together to better our ocean and sealife instead of trying to impose our own personal political agendas on the local resouces.

That's why alternative B is so odd. How does making Redondo an MPA for all species resolve the issues around octopus harvest at popular dive spots where photography is clearly the most prominent "use" of octopus?

I though Bob was on the advisory panel so I'm hoping he or one of the other members is able to chime in on how Alt B got into this mix of alternatives in the first place.

I volunteered for the advisory panel, but was not chosen. However, I've made my thoughts known through Rhoda (who was) and through correspondences directly to the WDFW. I do not favor a broader ban for the very reasons Corey has so eloquently stated.

I don't think our interests would be well-served by creating an "us" vs "them" environment with the fishing community. We need to make some adjustments to an antiquated law to accommodate a group of users (recreational divers) that effectively didn't exist 50 years ago when the law was written. Those of you who were at the WDFW hearing in Novemver may recall the statistics that were quoted saying that only 7% of divers engage in the activity for photography. How accurate does that seem to you ... and those statistics were gathered only 15 or so years ago.

What we need is to craft law that best accommodates the demographic of today ... not that of the past. Better data is needed, both on the general population of scuba divers and specifically on how much octopus hunting is really occurring. Right now, no one really knows ... and therefore it's difficult to discern what the best course of action should be. Personally, I think we need an octopus catch record ... like they have today for crab ... to help gather that data. It needn't cost hunters anything, but it would be helpful to make resource management decisions based on real data.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jaksonbrown]

I am on the advisory group and I agree the option B came out of left field compared to what was discussed. Hopefully some of the wording and sites can be amended. There is a workshop on the 24th at the Seattle Aquarium that I would encourage people to attend. The sites that are already listed as MPA's were not included. The sport fishing community tends to distrust the word "closure" and "MPA" with some justification and this will need some support from them. I also think that everyone should remember that the spear fishing divers that only have shoreline access available to them deserve places to hunt during the 3 week season available to them (everyone else has them for the rest of the year). A fair amount of these dive sites were created as artificial reefs for fisheries enhancement and as such the sport fishing/spearfishing groups actually contributed through license fees for most of the improvements these sites. It would be just as unfair to take these locations away from these groups as it would be to completely close them off to the diving communty in general because diving interferes with the fishing activity at these fishing locations.

Coming from the board, I must say that I am very surprised to hear your support for spear fishermen. I commend you!!! Keep up the good work!!!
However, spearing at Cove 2,Redondo, or other very popular spots is unsafe, and IMO, just wrong. Granted, shore spearing options are limited, but are available if you look hard enough.
Ill just throw out one more option.... I spear several days a week during our short season. I only have a few spearo buddies that go with me regularly. Any of you spearo's on this board or are reading this that think your only options are to spear at dive sites.... may I suggest that you contact me here, via pm's, or at divelist@hotmail.com and your welcome on my boat anytime. Ill put you on some fish away from divers haunts.

Tight lines all....

[dalcodiver]

As to the catch record it was suggested by the group. The additional costs for a catch record & enforcement costs to WDFW were cited as a couple of reasons why it is probably not fiscally feasible to have add more lines to the catch record (it is already long enough). It was also pointed out that this is not an octopus conservation issue but more of a public relations issue. Personally even though I have never harvested a octopus and have no desire to do so, I do know people that do and if that is a persons particular choice it should at least be an option for them. That is why I do not disagree with some of sites having octopus protections put in place since some people will not use reasonable discretion and make poor choices . However I do think that spear fishing at sites that were created as artificial reefs should not be restricted though. As I stated earlier most of the popular dive sites and the associated enhancements would not exist if not for the sport fisherman's contributions. If you can fish from a boat or shore at these sites why not while diving , why disenfranchise the diver who buys a fishing license and doesn't own or have access to a boat. When was the last time a spear fisherman shot another diver around here that wasn't spear fishing? Most of the spear fishing accidents that I have read about are usually self inflicted. Having owned a boat most of my life most of these proposals do not affect me personally and like Corey I try to take people out to other locations during fishing season when I can. But I know that some people do not have these options readily available and they should not be placed in the position of having to travel out of their way to enjoy the sport of their choice. The fishing season is short (3 weeks) and the lingcod re-populate rather quickly. Some of the sites I am talking about include Les Davis and KVI for example. Hoping for some honest opinions and open discussion here.

[lamont]

There was a similar Octo incident at Les Davis probably around 2004/2005(?), but that was pre-cameraphone, pre-facebook.

Looks like it was also probably pre-NWDC and info about that one most likely died with the old northwestdiver forum...

[Grateful Diver]

In the early days of NWDC there was a guy who used to monitor this board for octopus sightings. When someone talked about where one was, he'd go harvest it. Created a bit of a stir when he almost cleaned out Day Island Wall ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[dalcodiver]

I was at Les Davis DM'ing a class that day. But that diver and his partner brought the octopus out of the water in a game bag. When it was politely explained to him that it was a tacky thing to do during the middle of the day while there were dive classes going on and that since he owned a boat he never went there again. I know this individual and he simply started taking his octopus elsewhere. His wife is asian and they harvest & consume all manner of seafood that most people choose not to. Doesn't make him a bad person just different.

[Grateful Diver]

I wouldn't, personally, eat an octopus taken from either Les Davis or Cove 2 ... even if they were not dive sites. Both places are too close to major sources of heavy metals and other pollutants that get absorbed into the meat of shellfish, and consequently into the meat of the octopus. I'd be looking for hunting sites quite a ways away from either Ruston Way or the Duwamish ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[lamont]

I was at Les Davis DM'ing a class that day. But that diver and his partner brought the octopus out of the water in a game bag. When it was politely explained to him that it was a tacky thing to do during the middle of the day while there were dive classes going on and that since he owned a boat he never went there again. I know this individual and he simply started taking his octopus elsewhere. His wife is asian and they harvest & consume all manner of seafood that most people choose not to. Doesn't make him a bad person just different.

that's actually basically what we're asking for. head around the point from cove 2 and go boat dive the alki fishing reef, and nobody should be complaining about that (it is kinda right there in the name...)

i can see where the fishing community would worry about a slippery slope, though, and wonder what limited a "popular dive site" and could see how the fact that the alki fishing reef is dove reasonably frequently could lead it to being included, but right there i think you've got an example of where the line should get drawn. any rational policy should allow the fishing reef to get fished, while limiting octo harvesting at cove 2, and the line of what is "popular" needs to be somewhere in between those two.

[fishb0y]

While living on Oahu it was a common site to see both spear fishermen and divers sharing the same sites. It's very possible for everyone to share these sites.

Now ask yourself if you as a diver would appreciate it if sport/spear fishermen demanded we leave popular sites.

[60south]

Now ask yourself if you as a diver would appreciate it if sport/spear fishermen demanded we leave popular sites.

Point taken. No. But there is a difference...

As a recreational diver, I hope to leave a dive site as I found it for others to enjoy. But if someone bags a rarely-seen animal, that means everyone who comes after won't have the same experience.

It comes down to respect for others, and an appreciation for what is a sustainable catch at any given site.

[lamont]

While living on Oahu it was a common site to see both spear fishermen and divers sharing the same sites. It's very possible for everyone to share these sites.

Now ask yourself if you as a diver would appreciate it if sport/spear fishermen demanded we leave popular sites.

problem is that people get emotional about GPOs, and use of GPOs for food does naturally conflict with use of GPOs for recreation and pictures. if it didn't, we wouldn't be here.

and since right now they have no catch restrictions across nearly all of puget sound, *any* resolution other than the status quo is going to negatively impact hunters.

i'd rather view this as making sure that the hunters rights are protected, and that a good chunk of the octo-watching community is behind preserving the hunters rights outside of a few dive sites. otherwise some asshat will clean out DIW again or something and we'll be doing this all over again in a few years. and i don't think the hunters really want that either. making news all over the country every few years is probably not what either community wants.

[fishb0y]

Now ask yourself if you as a diver would appreciate it if sport/spear fishermen demanded we leave popular sites.

Point taken. No. But there is a difference...

As a recreational diver, I hope to leave a dive site as I found it for others to enjoy. But if someone bags a rarely-seen animal, that means everyone who comes after won't have the same experience.

It comes down to respect for others, and an appreciation for what is a sustainable catch at any given site.

And what makes us "recreational divers" better stewards for the environment than sportsman? Most fisherman are responsible and to say that we as 'recreational divers' should dictate policy is a pretty arrogant statement. Still, I'm more concerned with dealing with a fishing lobby that is much more influential.
Six gills are a rarely seen animal; seeing an octopus every other dive is far from rare.

problem is that people get emotional about GPOs, and use of GPOs for food does naturally conflict with use of GPOs for recreation and pictures. if it didn't, we wouldn't be here.

and since right now they have no catch restrictions across nearly all of puget sound, *any* resolution other than the status quo is going to negatively impact hunters.

i'd rather view this as making sure that the hunters rights are protected, and that a good chunk of the octo-watching community is behind preserving the hunters rights outside of a few dive sites. otherwise some asshat will clean out DIW again or something and we'll be doing this all over again in a few years. and i don't think the hunters really want that either. making news all over the country every few years is probably not what either community wants.

I don't disagree that this is more an emotional debate than it is about conservation, remember that there is a 1catch per day limit on octos. Heck, I'm even in favor of turning Cove 2 into a reserve, I will admit that I got caught up in the hysteria following the Alki Octo Incident... but I am starting to fear this group mindset that our bubbles take priority over others hobbies. We've gone from protecting Alki to adding sites all up and down the sound.
Imagine how much more difficult it is going to be to get DOE to concur with sinking a large artificial reef in Washington State waters without help from sport fisherman.

[lamont]

I don't disagree that this is more an emotional debate than it is about conservation, remember that there is a 1catch per day limit on octos. Heck, I'm even in favor of turning Cove 2 into a reserve, I will admit that I got caught up in the hysteria following the Alki Octo Incident... but I am starting to fear this group mindset that our bubbles take priority over others hobbies. We've gone from protecting Alki to adding sites all up and down the sound.
Imagine how much more difficult it is going to be to get DOE to concur with sinking a large artificial reef in Washington State waters without help from sport fisherman.

The "hysteria" and the "group mindset" is precisely why this needs to be regulated. Otherwise we can just keep on fighting this out every few years on facebook, twitter, blogs and forums.

[Grateful Diver]

How is restricting octopus harvesting at specified dive sites in any way interfering with spear fishing? It's already illegal to catch an octopus using a spear gun ... and always has been.

I agree that we need to consider the rights of hunters ... but I don't see this as a hunting vs recreational issue, unless we adopt policies that turn it into one. Yes, I think there are some on the committee who would like to see broader protections in the name of "conservation" ... but I think they're a minority ... and entitled to express their opinion. There are also those who see any restrictions at all as somehow a threat to their interests. Again, they're a minority and entitled to express their opinion. But I think the best policy would be a limited, compromise approach that accommodates the interests of both groups.

This is little different than the push 12 years ago to make Cove 2 off-limits to divers altogether ... to accommodate the water taxi. A compromise solution was the boundary rope that made a portion of the cove off-limits while keeping the rest open fo diving. Some folks didn't like it ... and felt it was an unreasonable restriction on "rights" they had prior to the compromise. But it's worked reasonably well, and has allowed the use of the cove for all interested parties. I think a similar approach will work in this case as well.

Yes, we need to consider all users when crafting policies and restrictions ... but the status quo doesn't really do that. The greater Seattle area has grown considerably since those policies were implemented ... and the people who use Puget Sound for various recreational activities has changed. It's good to review these policies in light of those changes from time to time and make adjustments that best accommodate the needs of the community as a whole. Whenever that occurs, there will always be some who feel that any change infringes on their "rights". And while the concerns of those people should be listened to and considered, they should not be allowed to inhibit reasonable changes that would better serve the interests of the community as a whole.

I think most in the fishing community would understand and support reasonable restrictions on octopus hunting at specified dive sites ... because it won't in any way interfere with their enjoyment of fishing as a whole. And I think the committee, for the most part, is doing a reasonable job of considering the interests of fishing as well as diving.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[fishb0y]

How is restricting octopus harvesting at specified dive sites in any way interfering with spear fishing? It's already illegal to catch an octopus using a spear gun ... and always has been.
...
I think most in the fishing community would understand and support reasonable restrictions on octopus hunting at specified dive sites ... because it won't in any way interfere with their enjoyment of fishing as a whole. And I think the committee, for the most part, is doing a reasonable job of considering the interests of fishing as well as diving.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sorry, I misread option C thinking it said all harvesting, not just octos. I'll reiterate my concern though, and that is the limiting of accessible areas for hook & line, spear fisherman and other similar folks who enjoy catching their meal. I'm not against regulating the catches, but I am against reducing the access for them.

[lamont]

Lets see if I can put it this way...

If the hunting community allows for some areas to become restricted for GPO catch, then what they're buying with that is that the next time a diver comes out of the water at a site where that is permitted and someone snaps a photo and it hits social media, they're going to have a lot of divers on the side of the hunter pointing out that its perfectly legal, pointing to the regulated compromise, and telling the person who shot the picture to take it down. I know that I'm willing to do that, and I believe there's a lot of divers who were somewhere in the middle ground on this one who would be willing to do that if there's regulations to point to. We can also contact the local press and if there's regulations to point at, we can be fairly effective at shutting down any news stories, or at least feeding reporters the regulations and pointing them at some balance.

Or we can just fight it all out on facebook again...

[Grateful Diver]

How is restricting octopus harvesting at specified dive sites in any way interfering with spear fishing? It's already illegal to catch an octopus using a spear gun ... and always has been.
...
I think most in the fishing community would understand and support reasonable restrictions on octopus hunting at specified dive sites ... because it won't in any way interfere with their enjoyment of fishing as a whole. And I think the committee, for the most part, is doing a reasonable job of considering the interests of fishing as well as diving.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sorry, I misread option C thinking it said all harvesting, not just octos. I'll reiterate my concern though, and that is the limiting of accessible areas for hook & line, spear fisherman and other similar folks who enjoy catching their meal. I'm not against regulating the catches, but I am against reducing the access for them.

I agree with you ... but I don't see a serious effort to restrict fishing. This is called the GPO Protection Initiative for a reason ... and although there are some who would like to expand it to include other fishing activities, I don't see them getting a lot of support. Restricting octopus hunting at popular dive sites is a reasonable objective. Few people hunt octos, and there's plenty of shore access for those few without taking octos from places where everyone else are going there to see them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)