WDFW GPO update: Seacrest Cove 1,2,3 now included in options

[Echo]

if it's such an issue, treat it like a public park... If you can't hunt Octo, than you shouldn't be able to hunt anything in the area, especially things that are more elusive and scarce than GPOs . I love the octopus just as much as the next guy, I find them intelligent and fascinating. I can't imagine wanting to kill one.... And if someone could help me in understanding how many of these octos are realistically being pulled from these waters annually?
There's been a similar debate with the Bureau of Land Management and harvesting the mustang for human consumption. People are FREAKING about the idea of someone taking a bolt gun to a truck load of beautiful, intelligent horse's heads. I'm a horse lover, I don't like the idea either, but the issue is more like this one. Trying to protect an animal that's doing fairly well, which is great, I love that people are trying to get involved and help wildlife. I just think there are bigger fish to fry..

[Echo]

I don't see the connection with this conversation and Native American fishing.


Signed,
Proud Native American

I'm just saying there are bigger issues out there that need more of this sort of attention than this octo thing. I have nothing against /ANYONE/ fishing or hunting. but I do have an issue with commercial fishing ESPECIALLY in our Sound.

[johndo88]

Thanks to all for their different views. Thank you Scott for your presentation at the Tacoma Dive Expo. At least I can say that I availed myself to different perspectives before submitting my comments.
Cheers

[nwscubamom]

I have skimmed through most of the comments here and think one thing needs clarifying:

The WDFW Commissioners (the 9 person panel that directs WDFW) created the 4 options. They then handed these 4 options over to WDFW to investigate. WDFW then formed a citizen advisory board, so they could get perspectives from many different viewpoints. Many of the points you guys are bringing up have already been expressed at one time or another in our meetings.

The GPO Advisory board is composed of divers, fishermen, charter boat captains, dive shop owners, non-divers, conservationists and spearfishers. (and probably but that's just off the top of my head, and of course some wear multiple hats).

We were tasked with the 4 options to flesh out more details within the four options. We didn't come up with them. It's our job to advise WDFW about the pros and cons of each option, from each of our perspectives.

We do NOT (as far as I know) make any kind of final recommendation (maybe I'm wrong on that though), nor do we have any 'voting' rights or make any decisions. I don't believe that even within the group do we need to arrive at a consensus.

Our job is basically to tell WDFW the pros and cons of each of the four options. After having done so, the 'rough draft' of the 4 options (with more details) was created by WDFW, and presented to the public for input. There were two meetings, as well as online comments being accepted.

After all of that is in, the GPO Advisory board meets again, to review the perspectives from the public to see if there were any angles that were missed.

I hope this helps,

- Janna

[Grateful Diver]

if it's such an issue, treat it like a public park... If you can't hunt Octo, than you shouldn't be able to hunt anything in the area, especially things that are more elusive and scarce than GPOs . I love the octopus just as much as the next guy, I find them intelligent and fascinating. I can't imagine wanting to kill one.... And if someone could help me in understanding how many of these octos are realistically being pulled from these waters annually?
There's been a similar debate with the Bureau of Land Management and harvesting the mustang for human consumption. People are FREAKING about the idea of someone taking a bolt gun to a truck load of beautiful, intelligent horse's heads. I'm a horse lover, I don't like the idea either, but the issue is more like this one. Trying to protect an animal that's doing fairly well, which is great, I love that people are trying to get involved and help wildlife. I just think there are bigger fish to fry..

... I think that using this issue to attempt to fry bigger fish is the most guaranteed way to assure nothing gets done ... it only results in creating opposition from other interest groups with way more political and economic clout than we have. We need to stay focused on the whole point of the initiative ... which is to protect one specific species within specified areas due to specific activities which are fundamentally in conflict with each other.

The purpose of the intitiative isn't conservation ... so the relative abundance or scarcity of the octopus within Puget Sound as a whole isn't relevent. The purpose is to preserve a place where a specific group of users don't suddenly have the reasons why they use it yanked away from them by a different group of users ... in other words, do we allow a one-time use of this resource for hunting, or a multiple use of the same resource for viewing?

This isn't just an emotional issue ... it's an economic one. The GPO is an icon of our area ... people come here from all over the world to see them. As an active diver, I've personally taken dozens of people from various parts of the USA and other countries down to see these animals. These people spend money on hotels, rental cars, restaurants, etc ... and support a lot of other businesses that have nothing to do with diving while they are here. Removing these animals from popular dive sites can have an impact on more than just local divers.

Hunters should still be allowed to hunt ... but pulling animals out of known dens in places that amount to a park isn't hunting. We're asking for protection in only a tiny fraction ... well below .01% of Puget Sound ... for the benefit of non-consumptive users. The remaining 99.99+% of the Sound is still available to those who wish to hunt.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[lamont]

I'm just saying there are bigger issues out there that need more of this sort of attention than this octo thing.

agreed.

stormwater runoff for one.

not sure why i waded into this thread, but sloppy thinking drives me a little crazy sometimes...

[CaptnJack]

The remaining 99.99+% of the Sound is still available to those who wish to hunt.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Maybe based on water area, but not based on access or habitat. There are quite a few areas off limits to Octo harvest already. Z's reef, Sunrise, Sund rock, and Keystone are notable ones.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/mpa/

They are all that easy for out of state divers to access during brief trips through Seattle though.

[Grateful Diver]

I'm just saying there are bigger issues out there that need more of this sort of attention than this octo thing.

agreed.

stormwater runoff for one.

not sure why i waded into this thread, but sloppy thinking drives me a little crazy sometimes...

Stormwater runoff is probably the biggest problem Puget Sound faces ... but it's not something we divers are going to be able to do much (if anything) about. It's a consequence of all the development and population growth in our area, and a very expensive problem that we're going to have to tackle collectively. About the best we as divers can do is make people aware of the enormity of the problem ... and the potential consequences of not fixing it.

This, however, has nothing at all to do with the GPO protection initiative ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

The remaining 99.99+% of the Sound is still available to those who wish to hunt.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Maybe based on water area, but not based on access or habitat. There are quite a few areas off limits to Octo harvest already. Z's reef, Sunrise, Sund rock, and Keystone are notable ones.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/mpa/

They are all that easy for out of state divers to access during brief trips through Seattle though.

... I suspect you meant to say they're not all that easy for out of state divers to access during brief trips through Seattle ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jaksonbrown]

.

[CaptnJack]

The remaining 99.99+% of the Sound is still available to those who wish to hunt.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Maybe based on water area, but not based on access or habitat. There are quite a few areas off limits to Octo harvest already. Z's reef, Sunrise, Sund rock, and Keystone are notable ones.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/mpa/

They are all that easy for out of state divers to access during brief trips through Seattle though.

... I suspect you meant to say they're not all that easy for out of state divers to access during brief trips through Seattle ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Not shmot :p

Nor for afterwork jaunts. I don't really understand why this is so controversial. There's some poor writing in option B. But there are "lessor" areas which are already MPAs for various reasons, mostly because they are near stormwater/CSO outfalls and people really shouldn't be eating fish from there or even having water contact there (when they are discharging). I thought everyone pretty much agreed that hunting at Seacrest and Redondo was pretty poor form anyway. Why not put it in writing so the next 'Dylan' won't run afoul of community norms and people won't get all angry and combative?

Option C is a bit bolder. But its not all that different than the urchin and sea cucumber protection zone in the San Juans. Or the closure of Puget Sound to rockfish harvest. So it closes a bunch of exceedingly popular shore sites to octopus harvest by a few to allow a multitude of sightseers a better chance of finding them. There are quite a few "non-popular" shore sites left where people can hunt. Shore sites like Tomie, Fox Island Bridge, Owens Beach Barge, the Shilshole and Edmonds marina breakwaters, Possession Point Fingers, Rockaway Beach, and Fort Flagler. Its not like the sites in Option C completely shuts out the rare octopus hunter from all shore access.

[johndo88]

I received an e-mail confirmation from the WDFW that my comments had been received. The e-mail I received included an ID number, mine was 172. Does anyone know if ID numbers are assigned sequentially, and if so, does this mean as of three days ago, only 171 other people have submitted comments. Seems like a low number to me. Just sayin'. :(

Cheers

[SeaDNA]

And if someone could help me in understanding how many of these octos are realistically being pulled from these waters annually?

I believe that the harvest estimate was 50-100lbs annually. which means 5-10 animals. In this circular from WDFW, http://www.wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/regulati ... tation.pdf , they are noted as being common and not likely threatened.

[Grateful Diver]

There is no data on octopus harvesting ... there isn't even a way to get data, since you only need a shellfish license to harvest octopus, and no catch record is required.

Any "estimate" is somebody's WAG ...

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

[SeaDNA]

Got the data from WDFW. Its gotta be correct, right? 1998-2000 an average of 100lbs harvested commercially. Between 2007-2011 less than 50lbs annually. Multiply by 5 to be liberal on the harvest, and you get to 5-10 animals each year based on 50lbs per GPO.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/ ... tation.pdf

I've tried it, not my favorite, so I leave them be. Much tastier animals out there, but the attempted closure of a fishery based solely on emotion, not based on any scientific facts is a travesty in my opinion. Exactly the reason we don't dive near "parks", so we can avoid upsetting folks who don't agree with the harvest of animals.

[WaGigKpn]

Couple that with the fact that Octo live for 3-5 years it really makes no sense what so ever to limit their harvest. If they were an animal that lived for 50 years then that might make a difference...

If we want more octo in dive sites, open up ling fishing...That's the environmental factor that keeps octo's in check...

[CaptnJack]

If we want more octo in dive sites, open up ling fishing...That's the environmental factor that keeps octo's in check...

Where did this idea come from? Got any references for it?

[Jeremy]

If we want more octo in dive sites, open up ling fishing...That's the environmental factor that keeps octo's in check...

Where did this idea come from? Got any references for it?

Not sure, but I've heard this before as an explanation for why we don't see GPO's more often at EUP.

[CaptnJack]

If we want more octo in dive sites, open up ling fishing...That's the environmental factor that keeps octo's in check...

Where did this idea come from? Got any references for it?

Not sure, but I've heard this before as an explanation for why we don't see GPO's more often at EUP.

We don't see alot of other things at EUP due to (presumably) the giant lings. Go anywhere else in Puget Sound and you are hard pressed to find a ling cod anywhere near their sizes. So to claim that ling cod are substantively reducing the octopus population sound-wide is really just a theory, a rather tenuous one at that since you can find lings and octos (both decent sized too) together at places like DIW and Z's reef, which ironically are also both MPAs with rocky habitat + suitable dens near sandy substrates with crabs. EUP has iffy den habitat and compratively few Dungeness crabs, so its not all that surprising that it lacks octopus, above and beyond the potential ling cod predation.

[Grateful Diver]

It's not even a good theory, considering how common it is to see large ling cod and octopus in relative proximity to each other.

Those of us who dive on a regular basis have numerous examples ... perhaps the most well-known is the bow of the Honey Bear. We've been alternately seeing lings and octos using that space for denning for as long as I've been diving, and I'm sure for years before I got certified.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

Got the data from WDFW. Its gotta be correct, right? 1998-2000 an average of 100lbs harvested commercially. Between 2007-2011 less than 50lbs annually. Multiply by 5 to be liberal on the harvest, and you get to 5-10 animals each year based on 50lbs per GPO.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/ ... tation.pdf

I've tried it, not my favorite, so I leave them be. Much tastier animals out there, but the attempted closure of a fishery based solely on emotion, not based on any scientific facts is a travesty in my opinion. Exactly the reason we don't dive near "parks", so we can avoid upsetting folks who don't agree with the harvest of animals.

The issue has never been about the harvest of animals. Had this kid done what you just suggested ... and not hunted at a popular dive site ... this never would've even raised an eyebrow with most folks who scuba dive for non-consumptive reasons. The issue is how to share a public resource between different public groups who have an inherent conflict in how they believe those resources should be used. That's the essence of public policy ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[WaGigKpn]

Which is it? Octo's are in trouble and need to be protected or you see huge octo's and lings together at numerous already protected dive sites? the point is the lings eat the smaller octo's, not the big ones...those will die in a few months anyway! then it probably will eat its body....

Will those who think that protecting octopus's will significantly increase their population in puget sound please make their voices known in public. What is the #1 predator of octoopus? tell me what that is and then i will tell you if you control that predator then more octopus will spring up within 2 years.

NO ONE should support closing the octo harvest...There is ZERO (scientific) reason! You, who claim its a tragedy that WDFW 'added' these options, should be up in arms! All divers should unite and support spearfishing and rally against hook and line fishing! Spearing is MAGNATUDES Better for the environment for numerous reasons! It should not be use 'spearo's' vs you 'divers'. I love the environment! I love eating it! I love exploring it! I want to trust those who make the rules but they continue to show that they have agenda's which are not rooted in science or common sense. Let us join together and make a real change in washington! No plan is perfect but the way it is now is INSANITY. Every oportunity results in a huge grab out of the hunting spear. Take for instance this most recent try to limit the Cabezon season? Past tries to close Neah Bay with ZERO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE! Great...now look. i am ranting....I reserve the right to come back and edit this when i calm down but goign to submit it to spur conversation...I am not against conservationists. Just please be understanding that people like to hunt fish and want to coexist. give some room to work together. please.

[Norris]

Which is it? Octo's are in trouble and need to be protected or you see huge octo's and lings together at numerous already protected dive sites? the point is the lings eat the smaller octo's, not the big ones...those will die in a few months anyway! then it probably will eat its body....

Will those who think that protecting octopus's will significantly increase their population in puget sound please make their voices known in public. What is the #1 predator of octoopus? tell me what that is and then i will tell you if you control that predator then more octopus will spring up within 2 years.

NO ONE should support closing the octo harvest...There is ZERO (scientific) reason! You, who claim its a tragedy that WDFW 'added' these options, should be up in arms! All divers should unite and support spearfishing and rally against hook and line fishing! Spearing is MAGNATUDES Better for the environment for numerous reasons! It should not be use 'spearo's' vs you 'divers'. I love the environment! I love eating it! I love exploring it! I want to trust those who make the rules but they continue to show that they have agenda's which are not rooted in science or common sense. Let us join together and make a real change in washington! No plan is perfect but the way it is now is INSANITY. Every oportunity results in a huge grab out of the hunting spear. Take for instance this most recent try to limit the Cabezon season? Past tries to close Neah Bay with ZERO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE! Great...now look. i am ranting....I reserve the right to come back and edit this when i calm down but goign to submit it to spur conversation...I am not against conservationists. Just please be understanding that people like to hunt fish and want to coexist. give some room to work together. please.

Your rant seems like a prime example of only reading what you want to see, and only seeing what you want to read. The bottom line is that the majority of what I have been hearing is that it's not the HARVEST it's the location at which it is done. Basically I would like to see the coves added as a no take zone. Not because I worry that we are going to run out of octos, but because many divers enjoy these sites and the wildlife they contain.I think that is the general opinion of many of the divers in THIS thread.

I for one am not a hunter, but I am completely supportive of harvesting for the sake of consumption. I dont recall seeing ANYONE in this thread (which you may not have absorbed) say anything about Octos being in trouble. This whole deal was the product of someone jumping into a very popular dive site, pulling out a resident octo which most likely has been photographed by many, having a crappy attitude when approached, and then placing it on his facebook along other photos of porcoupine soccer, m-80s in a snakes mouth, and various other cruel pics.

So my opinion is simply to add the Coves as a no-take zone (SCUBA) and not do anything to the current limit on octo harvesting. I have dived the coves plenty and have yet to see a spearo there. I am pretty certain that most hunters "already" avoid these sites out of mutual respect for the fluffy looky loo's.

[Grateful Diver]

Which is it? Octo's are in trouble and need to be protected or you see huge octo's and lings together at numerous already protected dive sites? the point is the lings eat the smaller octo's, not the big ones...those will die in a few months anyway! then it probably will eat its body....

Will those who think that protecting octopus's will significantly increase their population in puget sound please make their voices known in public. What is the #1 predator of octoopus? tell me what that is and then i will tell you if you control that predator then more octopus will spring up within 2 years.

NO ONE should support closing the octo harvest...There is ZERO (scientific) reason! You, who claim its a tragedy that WDFW 'added' these options, should be up in arms! All divers should unite and support spearfishing and rally against hook and line fishing! Spearing is MAGNATUDES Better for the environment for numerous reasons! It should not be use 'spearo's' vs you 'divers'. I love the environment! I love eating it! I love exploring it! I want to trust those who make the rules but they continue to show that they have agenda's which are not rooted in science or common sense. Let us join together and make a real change in washington! No plan is perfect but the way it is now is INSANITY. Every oportunity results in a huge grab out of the hunting spear. Take for instance this most recent try to limit the Cabezon season? Past tries to close Neah Bay with ZERO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE! Great...now look. i am ranting....I reserve the right to come back and edit this when i calm down but goign to submit it to spur conversation...I am not against conservationists. Just please be understanding that people like to hunt fish and want to coexist. give some room to work together. please.

I don't think you'll find too many people in here who support a complete closure of the octo harvest ... that's really not an argument I plan to favor.

At the last meeting I went to, I made pretty much the same argument ... that a complete closure isn't needed, and that we don't need to be putting ourselves into opposition with the fishing/hunting community by taking that position.

And I'm thinking that you don't understand why that position is even out there ... despite the fact that it's been explained in here multiple times.

These four positions are NOT the only options on the table ... they're four data points on a spectrum that ranges from "do nothing" to "do everything". Each data point is designed to stimulate conversation on various pros and cons ... and those range from the interest of various user groups to enforcement issues to how much it would cost to implement. Each data point has strengths and weaknesses. They were not ... ever ... intended to be "choose A or B or C or D" ... not by the committee that's studying these positions, anyway. They were intended to be "let's look at these four options and examine the pros and cons of each ... they were meant to stimulate a conversation that could ... and probably will ... lead to some course of action based on the realities of need, enforcement capability, budget, and practicality.

FWIW - the strongest support I see for complete closure of all octo hunting isn't coming from the diving community ... it's coming from the general public. From what I've heard, something like 80% of those polled at the Seattle Aquarium on this topic favor a ban on all octopus hunting.

So that's who you need to be talking to. The diving community is a very small, fairly insignificant percentage of the population ... way less influential than the fishing community, which is why we don't want to be turning this into an "us vs them" situation.

The general public, on the other hand, makes the fishing/hunting community look pretty small ... particularly in the greater Puget Sound area. And if you want to make an argument with those folks, it'd be helpful to comprehend what the issues really are.

Because what I'm reading in your arguments are based on quite a lot of apprehension and misinformation. And while fear and loathing sells quite well among a certain segment of the population ... in this area, I don't think it'll win you many converts.

If you're going to oppose something, it helps to do so from an informed position ... it helps your arguments sound well considered, rather than just scornful of everyone who doesn't agree with you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jaksonbrown]

NO ONE should support closing the octo harvest...There is ZERO (scientific) reason! You, who claim its a tragedy that WDFW 'added' these options, should be up in arms! All divers should unite and support spearfishing and rally against hook and line fishing! Spearing is MAGNATUDES Better for the environment for numerous reasons! It should not be use 'spearo's' vs you 'divers'. I love the environment! I love eating it! I love exploring it! I want to trust those who make the rules but they continue to show that they have agenda's which are not rooted in science or common sense. Let us join together and make a real change in washington! No plan is perfect but the way it is now is INSANITY. Every oportunity results in a huge grab out of the hunting spear. Take for instance this most recent try to limit the Cabezon season? Past tries to close Neah Bay with ZERO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE! Great...now look. i am ranting....I reserve the right to come back and edit this when i calm down but goign to submit it to spur conversation...I am not against conservationists. Just please be understanding that people like to hunt fish and want to coexist. give some room to work together. please.

Ahhhemmmm...... Rally against hook and line fishing??? Efforts to limit Cabezon season?? Past tries to close Neah Bay??? Get your facts straight bud... These efforts were brought on by DIVERS..... Namely EX Commissioner Jennings who is a DIVER....... with an agenda. I'm a diver, and a spearo, and a hook and line guy. The sport fishing community as a whole has done more to PROTECT and sustain our resources than divers ever have or will. You want to do something to actually accomplish something for the fisheries... then divers and hook and line guys need to stop fighting with each other and get on the same page.