Alki Diver Death
Thanks and I think that would be something I would do BEFORE entering the water myself. I know the gear can be heavy and being in the water makes it easier but you never know what could happen. I am just trying to also imagine what and how it happened. AIR OFF would explain not being able to hit the power inflater,ditch weight belt even with no reg in your mouth. maybe he hit his head on something as well. I just envision all these scenarios of what might have gone wrong.
Jeff Castor
remember, though, that in this situation its all pretty much speculation. it could have been a heart attack/stroke, it could have been air turned off, it could have been problems deploying a regulator, it could have been a concussion, etc.pogiguy05 wrote:Thanks and I think that would be something I would do BEFORE entering the water myself. I know the gear can be heavy and being in the water makes it easier but you never know what could happen. I am just trying to also imagine what and how it happened. AIR OFF would explain not being able to hit the power inflater,ditch weight belt even with no reg in your mouth. maybe he hit his head on something as well. I just envision all these scenarios of what might have gone wrong.
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Joshua Smith
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 10250
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm
And, like a whole lot of dive accidents, we'll likely never know what actually happened. This one is sobering to me because I can see how it could happen to anyone, really. Usually, there's something you can point to, and say: "THAT'S what killed him, I would never do THAT!"
It sounds, from what information that is available, like the buddy team was exiting the water after a dive (He had "45 minutes of air left") which would defenitely mean that the victim's air was ON. He was at least close to his buddy- they both got knocked around by the wake- I've been thrown on my ass by wake before, especially those big-ass container boats. Buddy pops up, looks around, and victim is nowhere to be seen- did he hit his head? Gulp down a healthy lungfull of water? Get pinned down by his gear, and couldn't reach either his inflator or his secondary? Some combination of these? Buddy starts looking for victim- well, we all know what the vis can be like around here- buddy could have swam within feet, or even inches, of the victim and never seen him- especially if he was a little freaked out.
I know that the post above is a lot of speculation on my part, but let's all be carefull out there. I have no desire to read about any members of this board in a thread like this.Or non-members, for that matter. The dive ain't over 'till you're back at the car, or sitting on the boat.
It sounds, from what information that is available, like the buddy team was exiting the water after a dive (He had "45 minutes of air left") which would defenitely mean that the victim's air was ON. He was at least close to his buddy- they both got knocked around by the wake- I've been thrown on my ass by wake before, especially those big-ass container boats. Buddy pops up, looks around, and victim is nowhere to be seen- did he hit his head? Gulp down a healthy lungfull of water? Get pinned down by his gear, and couldn't reach either his inflator or his secondary? Some combination of these? Buddy starts looking for victim- well, we all know what the vis can be like around here- buddy could have swam within feet, or even inches, of the victim and never seen him- especially if he was a little freaked out.
I know that the post above is a lot of speculation on my part, but let's all be carefull out there. I have no desire to read about any members of this board in a thread like this.Or non-members, for that matter. The dive ain't over 'till you're back at the car, or sitting on the boat.
Maritime Documentation Society
"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
OK this one is a little off the topic but Lamont I have been wanting to ask about your avatar. is all that gear for real or did you photoshop it? ](*,)
Common sense tells me unless you were lifted with a crane into the water there is no way you got in yourself. Also you would have sank like a bolder
Common sense tells me unless you were lifted with a crane into the water there is no way you got in yourself. Also you would have sank like a bolder
Jeff Castor
Actually that's Lamont before a routine cave or wreck dive. He carries all that gear to ensure his safety, and the head lamps are to ensure he doesn't have to worry about hand-mounted light. The 20 reels he has are for various situations, and his hydrolic legs (as shown in the picture) are for automatic extracation from an over-head environment should Lamont elect to deploy them.pogiguy05 wrote:OK this one is a little off the topic but Lamont I have been wanting to ask about your avatar. is all that gear for real or did you photoshop it? ](*,)
Common sense tells me unless you were lifted with a crane into the water there is no way you got in yourself. Also you would have sank like a bolder
Lamont is bad ass, and that picture shows all the gear he requires on a typical "Lamont dive." He's a hard core M.F.er and won't settle for anything but the most.
Just Kidding...
You should really dive with Lamont sometime.
He's a great diver!GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!
That's just for a routine dive to the honey bear, actually. Those dolphin pilings down there can be vicious to extract yourself from... I usually strap some cutting torches and an acetylene tank to myself when I'm headed down to the I-beams just in case I get caught down there...Sounder wrote: Actually that's Lamont before a routine cave or wreck dive. He carries all that gear to ensure his safety, and the head lamps are to ensure he doesn't have to worry about hand-mounted light. The 20 reels he has are for various situations, and his hydrolic legs (as shown in the picture) are for automatic extracation from an over-head environment should Lamont elect to deploy them.
Lamont is bad ass, and that picture shows all the gear he requires on a typical "Lamont dive." He's a hard core M.F.er and won't settle for anything but the most.
You're my hero.lamont wrote:That's just for a routine dive to the honey bear, actually. Those dolphin pilings down there can be vicious to extract yourself from... I usually strap some cutting torches and an acetylene tank to myself when I'm headed down to the I-beams just in case I get caught down there...Sounder wrote: Actually that's Lamont before a routine cave or wreck dive. He carries all that gear to ensure his safety, and the head lamps are to ensure he doesn't have to worry about hand-mounted light. The 20 reels he has are for various situations, and his hydrolic legs (as shown in the picture) are for automatic extracation from an over-head environment should Lamont elect to deploy them.
Lamont is bad ass, and that picture shows all the gear he requires on a typical "Lamont dive." He's a hard core M.F.er and won't settle for anything but the most.
GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!
Doesn't it strike anyone as weird that they described his air as "45 minutes worth" instead of a pressure??
Does that imply that his computer said 45 min? or what.... I don't know about anyone else, but my husband/ buddy usually doesn't know how much 'time' I have left, even if he has my PSI.. Plus that implies that the second diver had a depth in mind for the time he was gone.
Just seems strange to me.
Also, if you were on the surface and lost your buddy would you really wait 30 minutes to call for help? It would be different if you were underwater and knew his psi and he dove solo alot or something, but to be swimming in, lose your buddy and not call for help after a few minutes?? sounds weird to me.
Does that imply that his computer said 45 min? or what.... I don't know about anyone else, but my husband/ buddy usually doesn't know how much 'time' I have left, even if he has my PSI.. Plus that implies that the second diver had a depth in mind for the time he was gone.
Just seems strange to me.
Also, if you were on the surface and lost your buddy would you really wait 30 minutes to call for help? It would be different if you were underwater and knew his psi and he dove solo alot or something, but to be swimming in, lose your buddy and not call for help after a few minutes?? sounds weird to me.
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES..... THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING ... BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cera17
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cera17
You've got to realize that you're reading a newspaper article. "45 minutes worth" of gas is probably a translation that the diver or another diver gave the newspaper reporter based on the gas available, the divesite and some typical guess at a SAC rate. So a diver gave a reporter information who later wrote up a story who passed it off to an editor before it got printed. Usually this produces whoppers like references to recreational divers having "oxygen tanks" because the reporters and editors don't know any better. In the incident last year our gavin scooters became "jetskis" after the reporters and editors were done with them. They don't know any better. And unfortunately its difficult to educate them because there's always the risk they turn some offhand remark into some stupid sensationalistic headline.Cera wrote:Doesn't it strike anyone as weird that they described his air as "45 minutes worth" instead of a pressure??
Does that imply that his computer said 45 min? or what.... I don't know about anyone else, but my husband/ buddy usually doesn't know how much 'time' I have left, even if he has my PSI.. Plus that implies that the second diver had a depth in mind for the time he was gone.
Just seems strange to me.
Also, if you were on the surface and lost your buddy would you really wait 30 minutes to call for help? It would be different if you were underwater and knew his psi and he dove solo alot or something, but to be swimming in, lose your buddy and not call for help after a few minutes?? sounds weird to me.
It also doesn't sound weird to me that he searched for 20-30 minutes. Denial is not just a river... You don't want to think that your buddy is dead and drowned and that you need to contact 911 and SAR, but want him to just be separated and if you look for a minute longer you'll be able to find him and laugh about how much he scared the crap out of you... That is going to be the natural impulse, only with training to do you learn to contact 911/SAR early and even then training is rarely executed perfectly in an incident...
Because of all the detail lost in translation it's impossible to know what happened here.
If they were surface swimming that might imply that is was at the beginning of their dive since most often at the end of a dive you are coming in underwater. That would also explain having 45 minutes worth of air as their tanks would be more or less full.
However, if one is surface swimming the BC would be inflated but it obviously wasn't in the diver that died. So this might imply that they were underwater when the ship passed by and an underwater wave separated them since in the story it say one diver surfaced and one didn't. If they were already on the surface it makes no sense to say that one came to the surface.
It's unlikely that a health related problem occurred at the exact moment that a wave came by.
It seems more likely that the one diver never had his BC inflated and slipped and drowned at the beginning of the dive when a large wave caused him to slip. If you've in 6ft of water and your buddy slips it's unlikely you're going to get out of the water to make a phone call rather than spend as much time as is necessary to try to find him.
I'm guessing most of the "detail" given can be discounted.
If they were surface swimming that might imply that is was at the beginning of their dive since most often at the end of a dive you are coming in underwater. That would also explain having 45 minutes worth of air as their tanks would be more or less full.
However, if one is surface swimming the BC would be inflated but it obviously wasn't in the diver that died. So this might imply that they were underwater when the ship passed by and an underwater wave separated them since in the story it say one diver surfaced and one didn't. If they were already on the surface it makes no sense to say that one came to the surface.
It's unlikely that a health related problem occurred at the exact moment that a wave came by.
It seems more likely that the one diver never had his BC inflated and slipped and drowned at the beginning of the dive when a large wave caused him to slip. If you've in 6ft of water and your buddy slips it's unlikely you're going to get out of the water to make a phone call rather than spend as much time as is necessary to try to find him.
I'm guessing most of the "detail" given can be discounted.
The mass media press is a lay source, you can't trust them for the technical facts about anything from guns, airplanes, and certainly not diving. I totally agree, it's a lot easier to have the headache of explaining to the FD why they are there when you didn't ultimately need them, than having to deal with the coroner and family of the person who trusted you with their life.lamont wrote:You've got to realize that you're reading a newspaper article. "45 minutes worth" of gas is probably a translation that the diver or another diver gave the newspaper reporter based on the gas available, the divesite and some typical guess at a SAC rate. So a diver gave a reporter information who later wrote up a story who passed it off to an editor before it got printed. Usually this produces whoppers like references to recreational divers having "oxygen tanks" because the reporters and editors don't know any better. In the incident last year our gavin scooters became "jetskis" after the reporters and editors were done with them. They don't know any better. And unfortunately its difficult to educate them because there's always the risk they turn some offhand remark into some stupid sensationalistic headline.
It also doesn't sound weird to me that he searched for 20-30 minutes. Denial is not just a river... You don't want to think that your buddy is dead and drowned and that you need to contact 911 and SAR, but want him to just be separated and if you look for a minute longer you'll be able to find him and laugh about how much he scared the crap out of you... That is going to be the natural impulse, only with training to do you learn to contact 911/SAR early and even then training is rarely executed perfectly in an incident...
I may be a newbie to the board and all, but some of my other friends who are divers and I had a extensive discussion over email about this incident, and I think some of them are going to change the SOPs of how they dive because of it. In that way I hope this regrettable incident may have already made someone else's diving safer as a result of discussion and change of making assumptions to conducting explicit pre-breifs on operating procedures for the dive.
What is the SOP around here for lost contact? Or am I correct in assuming somethings are universal in that it varies wildly?
One of the things that surprised me, was the diversity of indoctrination regarding loss of contact depending on certification body, and how long ago the person was certified among my friends. The more I talk with other divers the more I realize what you learned is less a result of which org certified you, as much as the individual instructor. My friends (which strangely, none of whom I have dove with, but all of whom I have completely trusted my life to in other activities) had a range of acceptable tolerance for loss of contact before considering the situation a diver in distress from seconds (me) to minutes, and if it's my life in danger, minutes is entirely too long!
Also, what is the view up here about "shore buddies"?
Having rescued a diver in distress and having to pull a semi-conscious diver to shore once. I am a big fan of shore-buddies (that is having a third non-diver or non-diving diver on the shore during the duration of the dive,) who knows where you are diving, your planned profile and who is going to call 911 if you don't surface on or before you are supposed to, happy and healthy. In the incident I was involved with, the shore buddy had lifeguards at the beach and paramedics en-route long before I reached the beach with the diver in distress. The paramedics were on the beach within a minute of me and the diver-in-distress clearing the surf with the aid of life guards.
I told my friends up here I will shore buddy for them anytime I can make time to do it. Right now I am unemployed, so I have lots of free time, and the 3-10 minutes saved having someone at shore with a phone, rather than getting to shore and getting a phone in hand can save a life. So it's worth the ride and the 80 minutes twiddling my thumbs while they dive, if it adds some margin of safety or reduces emergency response time if something goes wrong.
When I dove So cal, I often dove with a buddy who was married and the wife and kid would have a beach day while we dove, acting as our shore party, watching us start our dive, and knowing we were going to dive say a 40 minute profile on the second reef out 200 yards south of the jetti and headed south at 40 feet, to call 911 if we weren't visible and on the surface at 40 minutes and 1 second. I liked the security of knowing I had someone that if something went wrong I could surface and get the attention of, to get rescue en-route and relay to rescuers the specifics of the dive profile if a search is necessary.
I am willing to be my friends buddies anytime, but I will take that a step further, if I can practically schedule it, I will shore buddy for anyone I can in the seattle area for a decent free lunch and carpool for the trip. Until I have a replacement card and new gear, it helps me in I get to know the divers around here, get familiar with the dive spots, and it helps you in that you know your car (or my car) will be there (unmolested) when you surface, and you have someone to help you gear up, and call 911 and get the straight poop (from a diver) to the first responders (rather than random man-on-beach pointing randomly at the water, who doesn't know how many divers are in the party, or what their plans were).
Shore buddies are important IMHO particularly when you have only two divers in the water, or (gasp) a solo diver. I have dove without shore parties many times, but I always feel better when I have someone on shore looking out for me and my dive buddy and following our progress on the surface.
Oh, are surface markers required the various cities/counties up here?
I like the concepts of surface / shore support, It does make a dive more comfortable knowing someone is there. My wife is usually not interested in hanging out for the hour or hour and a half {From gear up time to being back in the truck at the end of the dive}.I've never really put it to her as a shore support / safety person before. I may just do that!
Thanks WrongJohn, for the input. I think this could be something we should all considder more often.
I exspecially like shore support on "Night Dives" but I should look into it on other dives too!
Thanks
Thanks WrongJohn, for the input. I think this could be something we should all considder more often.
I exspecially like shore support on "Night Dives" but I should look into it on other dives too!
Thanks
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict!
If I told my wife that I needed her to stand on the beach with a cell phone and to call 911 if I was 1 second overdue from a dive, my guess is the my diving days would be pretty much over..... ](*,)I like the concepts of surface / shore support, It does make a dive more comfortable knowing someone is there. My wife is usually not interested in hanging out for the hour or hour and a half {From gear up time to being back in the truck at the end of the dive}.I've never really put it to her as a shore support / safety person before. I may just do that!
Thanks WrongJohn, for the input. I think this could be something we should all considder more often.
I exspecially like shore support on "Night Dives" but I should look into it on other dives too!
While I think shore support would be a great thing to have, I believe in most instances it's not really practical. Others may feel differently.
Jake
Nwbrewer wrote:
If I told my wife that I needed her to stand on the beach with a cell phone and to call 911 if I was 1 second overdue from a dive, my guess is the my diving days would be pretty much over..... ](*,)
I would have to agree with that statment!
I don't think I would use that approach.
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict!
I think that shore sherpas (as I like to call them) are extremely valuable and also extremely rare. So thanks for the offer wrongjohn, I may be taking you up on it.
It is true that most of us probably dive at spots and at times when there are going to be other divers in the water coming and going. And I do feel the collective looking out for each other that makes divers a one-of-a-kind group. Of course there are exceptions and idiots out there diving, but for the most part divers are pretty cool and very protective of each other.
I have been lucky to have dive sherpas in the past and it has always made the dives feel a little more secure. Knowing that some yahoo isn't going to break into your car and steal it or your gear or your wallet is peace of mind that would be awesome to have. Especially at sites where known incidents have occured. I.E. Redondo.. I am always nervous about leaving my car unattended there.
However, asking your SO to be on the surface waiting to call 911 if you are second beyond the dive time IS asking for trouble. That's just not prudent. Asking a fellow diver who understands the risk, that's different. They understand that 99 times out of 100 there isn't going to be a problem.. They are there for that 1 time.. But SO's just get way to worked up about stuff like diving being a dangerous sport..
My thoughts go out to the family of this diver.. It is always disheartening to hear about these unfortunate events. But my hope, as I know is the hope of most of you out there, is that people will learn from the mistakes that were made and also peoples awareness will be heightened. And the complacency that so many people dive with every dive will be realized and people will open their eyes and realize that they need to be safe, they need to review the safety precautions that they learned in their OW and AOW classes. If we don't follow the safety precautions on each and every single dive then we will forget. I myself have been guilty of this on more than one occasion and this tragedy had a sobering effect on me to re-evaluate my predive procedures, my dives themselves and my exits too. Because (I don't remember who said it but its true) the dive isn't over until you and your buddy (ies) are sitting around having drinks.. (I paraphrased)
It is true that most of us probably dive at spots and at times when there are going to be other divers in the water coming and going. And I do feel the collective looking out for each other that makes divers a one-of-a-kind group. Of course there are exceptions and idiots out there diving, but for the most part divers are pretty cool and very protective of each other.
I have been lucky to have dive sherpas in the past and it has always made the dives feel a little more secure. Knowing that some yahoo isn't going to break into your car and steal it or your gear or your wallet is peace of mind that would be awesome to have. Especially at sites where known incidents have occured. I.E. Redondo.. I am always nervous about leaving my car unattended there.
However, asking your SO to be on the surface waiting to call 911 if you are second beyond the dive time IS asking for trouble. That's just not prudent. Asking a fellow diver who understands the risk, that's different. They understand that 99 times out of 100 there isn't going to be a problem.. They are there for that 1 time.. But SO's just get way to worked up about stuff like diving being a dangerous sport..
My thoughts go out to the family of this diver.. It is always disheartening to hear about these unfortunate events. But my hope, as I know is the hope of most of you out there, is that people will learn from the mistakes that were made and also peoples awareness will be heightened. And the complacency that so many people dive with every dive will be realized and people will open their eyes and realize that they need to be safe, they need to review the safety precautions that they learned in their OW and AOW classes. If we don't follow the safety precautions on each and every single dive then we will forget. I myself have been guilty of this on more than one occasion and this tragedy had a sobering effect on me to re-evaluate my predive procedures, my dives themselves and my exits too. Because (I don't remember who said it but its true) the dive isn't over until you and your buddy (ies) are sitting around having drinks.. (I paraphrased)
"Well I, I wont go down by myself, but I'll go down with my friends!"
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ArcticDiver
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:15 pm
Maybe another perspective on Shore Support?
Just like a pilot files a flight plan or a boater files a "float plan" it only makes sense for a person to let someone on shore know when to expect them back in contact.
When I go upriver I'm usually by myself. So, my wife knows when to expect contact. If no contact by that time she alerts SAR with my data. If we are together, we let someone else know.
When I dive locally she either sits on shore or is by the phone at home. If on shore she can look out and see my bubbles(no CCR yet) and she knows about how much gas I've got. If at home she has a time to call SAR if no contact by then.
It seems to me these are sensible actions.
There is one proviso. I do not, ever, not even once, do anything she, my other half, disapproves of. So, I don't skydive or climb mountains. After all we do have mutual activity approval rights that were created on our agreeing to marry.
Just like a pilot files a flight plan or a boater files a "float plan" it only makes sense for a person to let someone on shore know when to expect them back in contact.
When I go upriver I'm usually by myself. So, my wife knows when to expect contact. If no contact by that time she alerts SAR with my data. If we are together, we let someone else know.
When I dive locally she either sits on shore or is by the phone at home. If on shore she can look out and see my bubbles(no CCR yet) and she knows about how much gas I've got. If at home she has a time to call SAR if no contact by then.
It seems to me these are sensible actions.
There is one proviso. I do not, ever, not even once, do anything she, my other half, disapproves of. So, I don't skydive or climb mountains. After all we do have mutual activity approval rights that were created on our agreeing to marry.
My wife sits on shore waiting for my bubbles to cease... If they ever do, she'll emergently call USAA to cash in my life insurance policy. CCR is going to drive her nuts. 
I'm just kidding - my wife trusts me and the people I dive with (well except Keith... she has a problem trusting anyone known as "Assman"
).
I personally don't think I'd like anyone on shore "ready to call 911" while I dive. Sounds awfully stressful for that person. Plus, if something DOES happen, what are they going to do... call the fire department? If something goes wrong, they'd just be calling in a body recovery (which, unfortunately, isn't an emergency). Your dive buddies should get you back to the surface in the event of a problem. I know mine are capable of that for me, as I am for them.
I'm just kidding - my wife trusts me and the people I dive with (well except Keith... she has a problem trusting anyone known as "Assman"
).I personally don't think I'd like anyone on shore "ready to call 911" while I dive. Sounds awfully stressful for that person. Plus, if something DOES happen, what are they going to do... call the fire department? If something goes wrong, they'd just be calling in a body recovery (which, unfortunately, isn't an emergency). Your dive buddies should get you back to the surface in the event of a problem. I know mine are capable of that for me, as I am for them.
GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!
Don't get me wrong, it's not that she's certain I'm going to die, or even really has an issue with me diving, it's more that if I think something is so dangerous that I need her standing around with a phone ready to call 911, she'd rather I didn't do that activity at all.
Which is is why I'm no longer allowed to climb trees carrying a chainsaw.
Filing a "flight plan" with someone is always a good idea, wheather you're diving, hiking, or just out going for a drive. It gives folks a place to start lookign for you if somethign does happen.
I do call my wife right before I hit the water, and I usually try to send her an e-mail with where I'll be diving, that way she can't forget where I was in case I don't check in at the end of the dive. As Sounder said if I don't come up it's a body recovery anyway, no hurry.
I chose to manage my risks by evaluating the water conditions, having a float and gas plan, carrying apporpriate safety gear and picking competent buddies. I think all of these things help to greatly mitigate the inherent risks of SCUBA and that these things provide a much better safety margin than a shore monitor with cell phone in hand.
Jake
Which is is why I'm no longer allowed to climb trees carrying a chainsaw.
Filing a "flight plan" with someone is always a good idea, wheather you're diving, hiking, or just out going for a drive. It gives folks a place to start lookign for you if somethign does happen.
I do call my wife right before I hit the water, and I usually try to send her an e-mail with where I'll be diving, that way she can't forget where I was in case I don't check in at the end of the dive. As Sounder said if I don't come up it's a body recovery anyway, no hurry.
I chose to manage my risks by evaluating the water conditions, having a float and gas plan, carrying apporpriate safety gear and picking competent buddies. I think all of these things help to greatly mitigate the inherent risks of SCUBA and that these things provide a much better safety margin than a shore monitor with cell phone in hand.
Jake
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ArcticDiver
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:15 pm
Your choice of words was what motivated my post.Nwbrewer wrote:Don't get me wrong, it's not that she's certain I'm going to die, or even really has an issue with me diving, it's more that if I think something is so dangerous that I need her standing around with a phone ready to call 911, she'd rather I didn't do that activity at all.
I chose to manage my risks by evaluating the water conditions, having a float and gas plan, carrying apporpriate safety gear and picking competent buddies. I think all of these things help to greatly mitigate the inherent risks of SCUBA and that these things provide a much better safety margin than a shore monitor with cell phone in hand.
Jake
Your words bring the image to mind of a person pacing the shore, phone in hand, just waiting, anxiously, to call emergency services.
Also, that you were doing something that your SO thought was so dangerous they were uncomfortable with it but you were going ahead anyway.
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Smoke Diver
- Just Settling In
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:07 pm
Alki accident insight
Having recently returned from an out of state vacation I heard the tragic news. It's heartbreaking. After reading the string of comments and speculation on this subject I am compelled to offer up some information that I have learned. In speaking with one of the rescuers. The person that actually found the victim informs me that the basic sting of events went as follows: The two divers we starting their dive walking upon the rocks of the pipeline. A wake from a large passing ship knocked the diver over. His buddy was in front of him and did not see him fall. His buddy looked back and didn't see him. He speculated that he decended thus he attempted to locate him. It was apprx. 30 minutes of searching prior to 911's activation. The victim did not have his fins on nor was his BC inflated. His tank was on and full. He did not hit his head. He was overweighted. He had 40 lbs on his belt and 10 lbs in his intergrated BC. He was a smaller statured man (apprx. 5' 8" 175 lbs). He was found in a semi sitting position at 6'. He weights held him down. It seems he may have had issues and either, could not reach reg/octo, inflate BC, kick to surface due to the lack of fins, possible gulped water, panicked, etc. As all of you are, I am deeply saddened by this. It's truly tragic and my condolences go out to all that knew and loved this man.
My editorial: Practice folks and practice as if your life depends on it...because it DOES!. Thats why in my introductory post I signed it "make it safe". It's up to you, not your buddy to make yourself SAFE. Our buddies are a check -n- balance, a last resort, or a stop gap if you will. Use them, learn from them, and trust them but only trust them so far because its up to you for your own safety. At a blink of an eye you can be alone and in need of help like NOW. With the constant lack of visablity problems here in the North West a buddy separation can happen innocently and in a instant. It's in the times when a safety/emergency situation may arise that you may have to rely on YOU and YOU alone.
Think for a second, how do most people plan or practice for diving emergencies? We do it while we are with our buddies, breathing at a normal rate, cool and calm, no stress, and while on the beach. We do it while driving to the dive site, talking in the vehicle. Maybe while suiting up. We don't give this critcial subject its proper respect. Try this, plan a dive solely to practice various emergency skills. Take the recreation out of this specific dive. Do nothing but practice contingency plans. Become more self-relient. One drill thats nice is to get in a pool or shallow depth at a dive site. Kick in place for a for minutes to work up a good repiratory rate. Then get with your buddy and practice various types of buddy techniques. I suggest you do this while both of you are on your knees but still under water so you can simply stand if things get hairy. Try this without a mask, with your buddies octo. tangled, so on and so on. The key is to try to work some level of exertion/stress into your drill. Panic and exertion is not simulated or praticed in many of the classes one might attend. We have to build "muscle memory". It has to instintive and instant but restrained and calm. This is very very hard to do and only practice will refine!
To me, I think one of the biggest disservice's that PADI, NAUI, etc. does to us as new divers is to preach and pound the "only dive with a buddy concept". In my opinion this builds a false sence of security. I'm not saying that the buddy concept is not important, not at all. It is VERY important. Critical in most cases even. All I am saying is we need to be able to get ourselfs outta trouble first if at all possible and see our buddy more as a added luxury. Granted, the classes only have so much time. It is ultimately up to each individual to practice, refine, and relearn our basic life safety skills. Perfect practice makes perfect!
My editorial: Practice folks and practice as if your life depends on it...because it DOES!. Thats why in my introductory post I signed it "make it safe". It's up to you, not your buddy to make yourself SAFE. Our buddies are a check -n- balance, a last resort, or a stop gap if you will. Use them, learn from them, and trust them but only trust them so far because its up to you for your own safety. At a blink of an eye you can be alone and in need of help like NOW. With the constant lack of visablity problems here in the North West a buddy separation can happen innocently and in a instant. It's in the times when a safety/emergency situation may arise that you may have to rely on YOU and YOU alone.
Think for a second, how do most people plan or practice for diving emergencies? We do it while we are with our buddies, breathing at a normal rate, cool and calm, no stress, and while on the beach. We do it while driving to the dive site, talking in the vehicle. Maybe while suiting up. We don't give this critcial subject its proper respect. Try this, plan a dive solely to practice various emergency skills. Take the recreation out of this specific dive. Do nothing but practice contingency plans. Become more self-relient. One drill thats nice is to get in a pool or shallow depth at a dive site. Kick in place for a for minutes to work up a good repiratory rate. Then get with your buddy and practice various types of buddy techniques. I suggest you do this while both of you are on your knees but still under water so you can simply stand if things get hairy. Try this without a mask, with your buddies octo. tangled, so on and so on. The key is to try to work some level of exertion/stress into your drill. Panic and exertion is not simulated or praticed in many of the classes one might attend. We have to build "muscle memory". It has to instintive and instant but restrained and calm. This is very very hard to do and only practice will refine!
To me, I think one of the biggest disservice's that PADI, NAUI, etc. does to us as new divers is to preach and pound the "only dive with a buddy concept". In my opinion this builds a false sence of security. I'm not saying that the buddy concept is not important, not at all. It is VERY important. Critical in most cases even. All I am saying is we need to be able to get ourselfs outta trouble first if at all possible and see our buddy more as a added luxury. Granted, the classes only have so much time. It is ultimately up to each individual to practice, refine, and relearn our basic life safety skills. Perfect practice makes perfect!
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Joshua Smith
- I've Got Gills
- Posts: 10250
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm
Good stuff, Smokediver. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I agree that the idea of "self rescue" isn't stressed enough- buddies are great, and we should all dive with buddies, but.....I've done a few solo dives, and let me tell you....solo diving really, really, makes you think about what could go wrong....I think the buddy system might give some people a false sense of security. I think about what I'm going to do if X, Y, or Z happens all the time- I've been pulling "out of air" drills on my buddies recently, too, but if your buddy doesn't know there's a problem, he can't really help you, right?
I got seperated from my buddy last night, actually- there were 4 of us dropping on the boat at Muk- we all dropped down the buoy into +/- 120 fsw with kind of snotty surface conditions- lots of chop- and when we got to the bottom, it took me a couple minutes to realize that Burntchef wasn't with us- when I turned to Calvin and Maverick, and made the "where the hell is my buddy?" sign language to them, they looked around and pointed behind me, and there he was....he had trouble equalizing, went back up, and then joined us, but I had a horrible minute or so, wondering if I'd screwed up.....I'm gonna work on staying really close on my descents; I just assumed that the light I was seeing over my shoulder was Burntchef, but it wasn't. Lessons learned from that dive: Stay with your primary buddy like glue, and don't assume anything.
And it's all too easy for me to see how this fatality happened- whatever you do to stay safe out there- double check it. It only takes a few seconds to go from good to fatal.
I got seperated from my buddy last night, actually- there were 4 of us dropping on the boat at Muk- we all dropped down the buoy into +/- 120 fsw with kind of snotty surface conditions- lots of chop- and when we got to the bottom, it took me a couple minutes to realize that Burntchef wasn't with us- when I turned to Calvin and Maverick, and made the "where the hell is my buddy?" sign language to them, they looked around and pointed behind me, and there he was....he had trouble equalizing, went back up, and then joined us, but I had a horrible minute or so, wondering if I'd screwed up.....I'm gonna work on staying really close on my descents; I just assumed that the light I was seeing over my shoulder was Burntchef, but it wasn't. Lessons learned from that dive: Stay with your primary buddy like glue, and don't assume anything.
And it's all too easy for me to see how this fatality happened- whatever you do to stay safe out there- double check it. It only takes a few seconds to go from good to fatal.
Maritime Documentation Society
"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."