near death from not listening to instincts

[nice-diver]

Cuse me out, praise me, excominicate me I don't care. Communication can save a relationship, your job and your life.

I don't have alot of money for all of the hobbies that I have and the things I need to do. With the help of ebay I have bought alot of the gear I have always wanted from the 1980's. The gear for the point of this story is all of my US Divers SE2 regulators. They work great for the diving that I do; under 70 feet but in cold and fridgid waters. They have always work flawlessly. I also don't spend the money on yearly maintenance.

Today I dove Waldo Lake in Oregon off hwy 58 2hrs east of Eugene. The first dive went great and the four of us had a good dive. We got down to 70 feet and even felt the thermocline drop from 64F to 46F.

After a long surface interval, three of of got back in for a deep dive. One was going to keep to his limits of 90 feet and he stayed with us at his comfort zone. Me and my dive buddy were going to go deeper.

When we got to 90feet, my buddies regulator began to freeflow, so he gto on his pony and had me turn off his tank to let the regulator thaw. I was in 100% control and understood what he wanted and we were off in a minute or two. (i was NARKED) my head had felt "strange" from probably 80 feet and deeper until I had my technical problem.

I started to feel a small stream of bubbles running down the center of my chest and got my buddies attention, we started to head back up alittle and my air went from 3000 psi to 2000 psi in a QUICK amount of time. He gave me his pony reg and was dealing with my freeflowing regulator and; what I can remember; I felt like I was running out of air. Your head knows what a breath "feels" like, well my breaths felt like they were getting smaller and I started to panic to the point that wanted to bolt to the surface; but being at 130 feet with empty lungs I pulled the reg out of my buddies mouth . He grabbed the pony and it breathed fine and then handed me my now thawed and fixed regulator.

He wanted to continue diving or dive back to the surface but with my air down to 1000-1700+- psi I wanted to get to the surface. We were going to dive his computer and I was still breathing hard (and not in the condition to follow my computer) but did get myself under control and we made a safe deco stop accent. At 30 feet I started "burping" all the air I hyperventilated, that was fun.

All three of us made it back safe.

1. I had the little voice tell me to take my serviced regulator that had an octopus second stage.
2. I have never felt narked before.
3. We had 5 regulators and 3 tanks.
4. I had one tank and one second stage, not good for my buddy...IF

If I used my serviced long hose we probaly would have had a cool uneventiful high altitude dive.

THE MORAL
listen to your instincts, if you are thinking about a gear change or even aborting you can probably save your life if not physically then mentally. Be prepared to help your self and your buddy by having the right equipment that is safe to use. You can't get expereance with out diving, but ask questions before you attempt a challenging dive(or take a class ). being the most prepared you can be can keep you safe and alive to dive another day.

I have posted this to keep everybody aware of the problems that can arise in this fun sport. For people to think about the gear that they use and the condition and maintenance schedules. (any reg can freeflow at about anytime) For buddys to talk about the what ifs when... live study and learn

[BASSMAN]

"When we got to 90feet, my buddies regulator began to freeflow, so he got on his pony and had me turn off his tank to let the regulator thaw."

"He gave me his pony reg and was dealing with my freeflowing regulator"

"being at 130 feet with empty lungs I pulled the reg out of my buddies mouth . He grabbed the pony and it breathed fine and then handed me my now thawed and fixed regulator."

I'm confused, just how big, and how many regs are on your buddy's Pony

[Grateful Diver]

Cuse me out, praise me, excominicate me I don't care. Communication can save a relationship, your job and your life.

I don't have alot of money for all of the hobbies that I have and the things I need to do. With the help of ebay I have bought alot of the gear I have always wanted from the 1980's. The gear for the point of this story is all of my US Divers SE2 regulators. They work great for the diving that I do; under 70 feet but in cold and fridgid waters. They have always work flawlessly. I also don't spend the money on yearly maintenance.

Today I dove Waldo Lake in Oregon off hwy 58 2hrs east of Eugene. The first dive went great and the four of us had a good dive. We got down to 70 feet and even felt the thermocline drop from 64F to 52F.

After a long surface interval, three of of got back in for a deep dive. One was going to keep to his limits of 90 feet and he stayed with us at his comfort zone. Me and my dive buddy were going to go deeper.

When we got to 90feet, my buddies regulator began to freeflow, so he gto on his pony and had me turn off his tank to let the regulator thaw. I was in 100% control and understood what he wanted and we were off in a minute or two. (i was NARKED) my head had felt "strange" from probably 80 feet and deeper until I had my technical problem.

I started to feel a small stream of bubbles running down the center of my chest and got my buddies attention, we started to head back up alittle and my air went from 3000 psi to 2000 psi in a QUICK amount of time. He gave me his pony reg and was dealing with my freeflowing regulator and; what I can remember; I felt like I was running out of air. Your head knows what a breath "feels" like, well my breaths felt like they were getting smaller and I started to panic to the point that wanted to bolt to the surface; but being at 130 feet with empty lungs I pulled the reg out of my buddies mouth . He grabbed the pony and it breathed fine and then handed me my now thawed and fixed regulator.

He wanted to continue diving or dive back to the surface but with my air down to 1000-1700+- psi I wanted to get to the surface. We were going to dive his computer and I was still breathing hard (and not in the condition to follow my computer) but did get myself under control and we made a safe deco stop accent. At 30 feet I started "burping" all the air I hyperventilated, that was fun.

All three of us made it back safe.

1. I had the little voice tell me to take my serviced regulator that had an octopus second stage.
2. I have never felt narked before.
3. We had 5 regulators and 3 tanks.
4. I had one tank and one second stage, not good for my buddy...IF

If I used my serviced long hose we probaly would have had a cool uneventiful high altitude dive.

THE MORAL
listen to your instincts, if you are thinking about a gear change or even aborting you can probably save your life if not physically then mentally. Be prepared to help your self and your buddy by having the right equipment that is safe to use. You can't get expereance with out diving, but ask questions before you attempt a challenging dive(or take a class ). being the most prepared you can be can keep you safe and alive to dive another day.

I have posted this to keep everybody aware of the problems that can arise in this fun sport. For people to think about the gear that they use and the condition and maintenance schedules. (any reg can freeflow at about anytime) For buddys to talk about the what ifs when... live study and learn

There's so much wrong with this story that I'm not sure where to begin ... or even if I should bother. Your problems started long before your reg started free-flowing.

Did any of you guys pay attention in your OW class? Because you broke an awful lot of the rules you were supposed to have learned before you attempted a dive like that.

I'll spare you the lecture ... but please, rethink your approach to diving.

That much carelessness can kill you quick ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nwbrewer]

There's so much wrong with this story that I'm not sure where to begin ... or even if I should bother. Your problems started long before your reg started free-flowing.

Did any of you guys pay attention in your OW class? Because you broke an awful lot of the rules you were supposed to have learned before you attempted a dive like that.

I'll spare you the lecture ... but please, rethink your approach to diving.

That much carelessness can kill you quick ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Agreed.

One thing I'm confused about, is that I wasn't aware that 52deg constituted "cold water diving".

It's not warm, but in Puget Sound it's often colder than that in the winter and I've never experienced an icing issue? Is this something to be concerned about in the Sound most of the year?

Jake

[Joshua Smith]

I don't understand the story, or what went wrong with the regs that didn't get their yearly service, or what the "lessons learned" were supposed to be.....I found the whole thing to be confusing, but, yeah, sounded like some dangerous behavior.....

[CaptnJack]

I don't exactly understand the sequence of events with the equipment.

But PLANNING on seperating from a buddy is ummmm, "foolish".

[cardiver]

The leaving the buddy at 90 ffw is what stood out to me the most. If you and your buddy want to be wreckless, that's on the two of you. Leaving your buddy alone at 90 is ridiculous!

[Pinkpadigal]

Nice-Diver,

Glad you made it out safe and everyone was OK. It could have very easily gone very, very bad.

[Jeff Kruse]

[quote="Grateful Diver"
There's so much wrong with this story that I'm not sure where to begin ... or even if I should bother. Your problems started long before your reg started free-flowing.
Did any of you guys pay attention in your OW class? Because you broke an awful lot of the rules you were supposed to have learned before you attempted a dive like that.
I'll spare you the lecture ... but please, rethink your approach to diving.
That much carelessness can kill you quick ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)[/quote]


Why stop lecturing now Bob? This guy really needs your help.

[Tom Nic]

Perhaps "cool" collectors gear from the 80's belongs displayed on a shelf rather than being used? Another possible lesson?

Glad you're OK, and hope lessons learned. I know that it's a "risk" posting experiences on a public forum, but I believe it is a risk that is worth it for everybody's learning. Sounds like you got off "easy" with just a good scare on a dive that could have been fatal with the depths you describe.

Not everyone expresses themselves really clearly in writing, so sometimes things get lost in the "translation" if you will. I think your post raised more questions at the moment than it provided lessons. It might be worth it for you to clarify a few things based on the feedback here.

Be safe everyone...

-Tom Nic

[Grateful Diver]

Why stop lecturing now Bob? This guy really needs your help.

[Grateful Diver]

Perhaps "cool" collectors gear from the 80's belongs displayed on a shelf rather than being used? Another possible lesson?

Or, at least, if you're planning to use it, consider having it serviced first.

There's a filter, HP seat, and O-rings in there that might not be working properly. Any of those things would affect the ability of the reg to deliver air to you as it should ... or at all ... and they're all items that are designed to be replaced during routine maintenance.

Especially with an older reg ... when you buy something like this used, you have no way of knowing its service history. It's not wise to take a reg like that into a pool ... much less on a cold, deep dive ... without at least having it opened up and inspected, if not completely serviced.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[GillyWeed]

Did any of you guys pay attention in your OW class? Because you broke an awful lot of the rules you were supposed to have learned before you attempted a dive like that.

That is probably the moral of the story.. The basics were not followed here from the old gear, to the reverse dive to leaving your buddy..

The training is the way it is for a reason. To help you help yourselves.. No one can make you follow the rules, but is it anyone's fault but your own if you don't follow the rules and then have an accident?

How can you be in 100% control and be narc'd at the same time? And what was your buddy thinking? If you are loosing air that fast at that depth to want to continue diving? I know I am going to hear some heat for this one, but he must not like you very much...

I think that there needs to be A LOT more communication for you nice-diver. No excommunication or any of that.. On the contrary, what you need is some experianced buddies to help you re-learn some things. Bob, start the lecture now, please!

I am very happy that you made it out ok.. But please get your gear serviced (all of it) before you dive again. And spend some time reviewing some of your OW course material, at the very least.

This BTW was a very scary post to read in my opinion..

[Pez7378]

Nice-Diver,

Glad you were able to come back and share your story. Hopefull you will heed your own advice and "Take a class , Live study and Learn"

Thanks for having the courage to share your experience and endure the cyber gauntlet.

[Sounder]

Thanks for having the courage to share your experience and endure the cyber gauntlet.

Yup, and here it comes. If nobody else got worked up about this, I certainly did!


Wow. I'm not sure where to begin either... the post was a bit confusing but there were plenty of parts I understood just fine that were extremely reckless and disturbing.

To be quite blunt, you and your buddies were carelessly toying with death.

Think about it this way - If you like to drive your car at 130mph (just like 130 ffw or fsw) on dark, blind cornered roads in the ice and rain, but you couldn't afford to buy a seat belt, knowing you could crash and that it could be a VERY serious crash... would you still drive in that car? If you did, I certainly wouldn't get in that car with you.

You're very lucky to be alive and, in my opinion, you should to stop diving until you can save enough money to service and ensure your gear is properly functioning and to obtain the right training to dive safely. I understand that money can be tight and that diving is expensive, but you MUST understand that you may die on your next dive to save money.

The gear you're diving is reckless, the handling of the incident was reckless, the plan to leave a buddy behind who isn't comfortable below 90ffw AT 90ffw was F***ING reckless, and the fact that there were two other people there who ALSO thought this was an ok idea is beyond me.

I appreciate that you posted, but to be quite frank the moral of the story is WAY MORE than to just "listen to your instincts." There are so many more lessons to be taken from this story. Unfortunately, your instructor should have covered them in OW and especially in AOW (assuming you've taken AOW seeing that you were diving to 130ffw at "high altitude").

[Seth T.]

This is f*&#ed up, right here.

[Nwbrewer]

Thanks Sounder. I had typed up something similar a few times, but I kept deleting it.

Nice-diver,

I hope you don't think the folks here are just picking on you. Most folks on this board are dedicated to doing dives as safely as possible, and there are a lot of things in your post that raise red flags. I fear that some of the posts will be percieved as picking on you, rather than the spirit in which they are intended, which is trying to help.

Please understand that there was more to be taken away than "listen to your instincts." Dives like this are where divers get bent or killed, and nobody here wants to read a newspaper clipping about another body recovery, we've had too many of those already this summer.

If you have any questions about what you did wrong, or want to learn more about how to do these deeper dives SAFELY, please continue to post.

A few people have mentioned basic OW class information being ignored on this dive. I don't think it's fair to blame you entirely for that, some of the blame must be shared with your instructor(s).

Grateful Diver has some good information on gas management, I think it would be good for you to come up to Seattle some time and attend one of his gas management seminars. Much of the information Sounder presents comes from information in Bob's seminar.

Please understand that our comments are all intended out of concern for your continued good health. Please ask if you have any questions, I'll do my best to help you out, though there are a lot of people here with a LOT more experience than I have...

Jake

Dive safe

[GillyWeed]

Please understand that our comments are all intended out of concern for your continued good health. Please ask if you have any questions, I'll do my best to help you out, though there are a lot of people here with a LOT more experience than I have...

That pretty much sums it up for me too. I wasn't as nice or elequent as Jake. But that's exactly how I feel. Basically Jake's whole post was awesome. But I agree whole heartedly with Sounder too.. It was reckless!

Please be more careful out there!!

[Cera]

Isn't Waldo Lake at about 6500 ft? So was that adjusted altitude depth or were you actually diving deeper than you realized?
I have to suppose the reason you posted this was to 'teach a lesson' which I assume you learned, so I don't think any lectures are necessary. I am glad you were 'lucky' enough to survive this. Be more careful!

[Seth T.]

Isn't Waldo Lake at about 6500 ft? So was that adjusted altitude depth or were you actually diving deeper than you realized?
I have to suppose the reason you posted this was to 'teach a lesson' which I assume you learned, so I don't think any lectures are necessary. I am glad you were 'lucky' enough to survive this. Be more careful!

130' actual depth adjusted for altitude is off the charts. We are beyond reckless into just plain FUBAR.

[Sounder]

Isn't Waldo Lake at about 6500 ft? So was that adjusted altitude depth or were you actually diving deeper than you realized?
I have to suppose the reason you posted this was to 'teach a lesson' which I assume you learned, so I don't think any lectures are necessary. I am glad you were 'lucky' enough to survive this. Be more careful!

130' actual depth adjusted for altitude is off the charts. We are beyond reckless into just plain FUBAR.

Well, it's not off the charts... but it's creepy for a rec dive.

[Nwbrewer]

The correction factor for 7000ft is 1.29, so 130 ffw puts them at an effective depth of ~170ffw. That's off any rec chart I've seen....

most of the reading I've done also recomends limiting altitude diving to 100fsw for recreational purposes.


Be careful out there.....


Jake

[Sounder]

The correction factor for 7000ft is 1.29, so 130 ffw puts them at an effective depth of ~170ffw. That's off any rec chart I've seen....

most of the reading I've done also recomends limiting altitude diving to 100fsw for recreational purposes.


Be careful out there.....


Jake

I should have qualified my statement - yes, I agree it's off the charts for rec diving. I was referring to it not being off the charts for tec... the creepy part was referring to considering it a rec dive.

I appreciate you pointing out where I needed to make a clairification.

[Nwbrewer]

The correction factor for 7000ft is 1.29, so 130 ffw puts them at an effective depth of ~170ffw. That's off any rec chart I've seen....

most of the reading I've done also recomends limiting altitude diving to 100fsw for recreational purposes.


Be careful out there.....


Jake

I should have qualified my statement - yes, I agree it's off the charts for rec diving. I was referring to it not being off the charts for tec... the creepy part was referring to considering it a rec dive.

I appreciate you pointing out where I needed to make a clairification.

I know, I was mainly pointing out exactly HOW FAR out of the limits this dive was. They never made it clear whether or not they were diving EANX which can mitigate the effects of altitude, but if they were I'd say they were probably a but over thier MOD if using a standard mix. Any way you cut it, not the safest dive to do.

Jake

[Tangfish]

I'm going to break from the pack here and say that if nice-diver posted this here, the way he did, he and his dive buddies likely *already* have learned a great deal from this botched dive.

I don't see what the point is of piling comments onto his story, reprimanding him and his buddies and telling them how lucky they are to be alive, despite being total [insert insulting adjective]s.

I didn't read any part of his post that solicited advice on what he *should've* done, he was just sharing a tale with us of a dive that was less than flattering from more than one perspective, and telling us what they learned from the experience. Are there still things left to be learned? Definitely. But we should be courteous enough to allow him to request additional advice from us, before giving it to him.

As some of you know from making mistakes of your own, a lot of the time, criticism and unsolicited advice is the last thing that is needed - when you already feel like you've screwed up. Usually after a bit of time, you go seeking that advice from people you feel comfortable asking, anyway.

If each time a diver posts a dive report where mistakes were made, we jump all over them, no one will post such reports anymore - and I think that it would be a bad thing if that happened.

Before I read any of the responses, my first reaction was to say something along the lines of, "Man, that's terrible and it sounded really stressful. I'm glad you and your buddies made it back to tell us about it and from the sounds of it, the experience really has you guys thinking about some things.... which is good." I could have also added to that, "let me know if I can offer any help at all, including advice or recommendations on where/how to get your gear serviced, or any resources that may be helpful in planning future dives in those types of conditions".

I know I've made some poor decisions and/or had bad luck on dives, yet have lived to tell about it. I don't think I'm alone in having such a record, and I believe that the more openly we can share with one another, without the fear of being publicly ridiculed, the more we can learn from each other to avoid future sketchy/dangerous situations. And yes, we all have something left to learn.....