Diving Realities:my two cents

General banter about diving and why we love it.
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Grateful Diver
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being completely facetious here ...

Post by Grateful Diver »

Solitude Diver wrote:1 Not to dive
2 Dive with experienced buddy
3 Deep dives < 130 ft
4 Solo
5 Dive with new (inexperienced) diver
6 Wreck penetration/Caves
7 Deep Decompression diving

That is about how I’d rank them in order of risk. I know divers in each of these categories. People have died in each of these categories (including the first), but yet for some reason only the solo category gets suggested as taboo and meets the opposition that it does. I wonder why that is?

I am sure there are non-divers who would tell you that anyone who goes past the first line (not diving) is putting themselves at unreasonable risk. And they may be right. But everyone on this board picks which category he/she wants to dive in and should get to do so without having to be subjected to the opinions of those who think they know what is right for everyone else.
You forgot one ... diving on a rebreather.

Some really experienced divers ... Zak Jones and Rob Davies, for example ... died on rebreathers. Those guys were really good, too.

So maybe we should get on a campaign to outlaw rebreathers ... clearly they're dangerous.

Oh wait ... that'd seriously impact the profitability of some local dive businesses ... they'd never go for it. What's a few lives worth anyway ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by Sounder »

Solitude Diver wrote:1 Not to dive
2 Dive with experienced buddy
3 Deep dives < 130 ft
4 Solo
5 Dive with new (inexperienced) diver
6 Wreck penetration/Caves
7 Deep Decompression diving

That is about how I’d rank them in order of risk. I know divers in each of these categories. People have died in each of these categories (including the first), but yet for some reason only the solo category gets suggested as taboo and meets the opposition that it does. I wonder why that is?

I am sure there are non-divers who would tell you that anyone who goes past the first line (not diving) is putting themselves at unreasonable risk. And they may be right. But everyone on this board picks which category he/she wants to dive in and should get to do so without having to be subjected to the opinions of those who think they know what is right for everyone else.
Your opinion of risk is certainly as valid as anyone elses. I think people consider soloing taboo/high risk for the same reason you consider deep deco diving at the worst end... it's their opinion.

I could pull statistics that say I'm safer underwater doing deep solo deco diving, than I am above water not diving (more deaths happen on the street than under water etc.)... so, opinions (and frankly, statistics) are like :bootyshake: , everybody's got one.
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Post by Grateful Diver »

Sounder wrote:[
I think people consider soloing taboo/high risk for the same reason you consider deep deco diving at the worst end... it's their opinion.
I think people consider soloing taboo/high risk for the same reasons they once considered diving with nitrox taboo/high risk ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by Solitude Diver »

Sounder wrote: I think people consider soloing taboo/high risk for the same reason you consider deep deco diving at the worst end... it's their opinion.

I could pull statistics that say I'm safer underwater doing deep solo deco diving, than I am above water not diving (more deaths happen on the street than under water etc.)... so, opinions (and frankly, statistics) are like :bootyshake: , everybody's got one.
It is not so much about the order of the items (and as Bob said I did forget to add rebreather which is funny since I dive one).

My point was there are numerous categories of riskier diving than just buddy diving at shallow depths. And there never seems to be debates about any but the solo issue. I just don't see any logic in that.

I'd understand if someone was bent on preaching about all advanced diving, but it always comes down to just this one category. I just don't get it.
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Post by Solitude Diver »

Grateful Diver wrote:
Sounder wrote:[
I think people consider soloing taboo/high risk for the same reason you consider deep deco diving at the worst end... it's their opinion.
I think people consider soloing taboo/high risk for the same reasons they once considered diving with nitrox taboo/high risk ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
There's a lot of truth to that Bob. It is the lack of education in the field for newer divers. They are just told no, with no explanation other than it's forbidden. I think if it was discussed a little more in-depth and done more in the open, with divers encouraged to discuss it and ask about it, it would be beneficial. It would at least provide an opportunity to explain the proper methods for learning, and proper gear, and bring out in the open (for evaluation by more experienced people) those thinking about trying it.
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Post by Sounder »

Well, I guess the answer then is that the reason people are getting heated about solo diving is because that's been the topic yesterday and today. Tomorrow it could be about CCRs, and perhaps on Friday we could give wreck penetration a shot!

I think there are many hot button issues, and this one is simply the one we're talking about here.
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Post by Grateful Diver »

Solitude Diver wrote:My point was there are numerous categories of riskier diving than just buddy diving at shallow depths. And there never seems to be debates about any but the solo issue. I just don't see any logic in that.

I'd understand if someone was bent on preaching about all advanced diving, but it always comes down to just this one category. I just don't get it.
Because those arguments aren't based on logic ... they're based on adherence to a belief system ... and to a certain degree, on the financial investments built around that belief system.

Just as with nitrox diving 15 years ago ... when the market (i.e. divers) demands change, the belief system will change ... and the financial investments will evolve to embrace that change.

Then it will be acceptable ... just as nitrox diving is today ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Last edited by Grateful Diver on Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Grateful Diver »

Sounder wrote:Well, I guess the answer then is that the reason people are getting heated about solo diving is because that's been the topic yesterday and today. Tomorrow it could be about CCRs, and perhaps on Friday we could give wreck penetration a shot!

I think there are many hot button issues, and this one is simply the one we're talking about here.
Hey ... I got an idea ... let's have a "Hot Button of The Day" topic ...

Mondays it's solo diving
Tuesdays, CCR
Wednesdays, jackets vs backplates
Thursdays, split fins
Fridays, DIR

... and on the week-ends, let's all go diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by Solitude Diver »

Grateful Diver wrote:
Sounder wrote:Well, I guess the answer then is that the reason people are getting heated about solo diving is because that's been the topic yesterday and today. Tomorrow it could be about CCRs, and perhaps on Friday we could give wreck penetration a shot!

I think there are many hot button issues, and this one is simply the one we're talking about here.
Hey ... I got an idea ... let's have a "Hot Button of The Day" topic ...

Mondays it's solo diving
Tuesdays, CCR
Wednesdays, jackets vs backplates
Thursdays, split fins
Fridays, DIR

... and on the week-ends, let's all go diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
You forgot "mask on forehead" :smt064
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Post by Sounder »

I have an :bootyshake: too...

I don't think solo diving will be as accepted as nitrox is now. I believe nitrox becoming accepted is more of an indication of CCRs becoming mainstream.

I think there is still a valid and strong argument for diving with a trusted and trained buddy and I believe there always will be. Sure, some buddies are better than others, and students or newbs can be a hazard but... I don't think someone can make an argument that says that someone like Bob is safer diving alone than if Bob and Matt (picking another highly experienced NAUI instructor) are diving together as a team.
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Post by LCF »

Gray, I did that dive as part of a boat diving specialty, following a PADI instructor. Honestly, I'm ashamed of myself, that I just followed him down there, basically thinking, "He's an instructor and he thinks it's okay, so it must be okay." I hadn't given a lot of extra thought to diving, just what I was taught, and I do not recall being taught that there were any particular dangers in diving deeper, except you went through your air faster (and man, I monitored that gauge on that dive) and you could get this thing called narcosis (which I didn't recognize having there). Nobody had ever introduced the idea that I needed enough gas to get me AND my buddy to the surface, and I just hadn't thought about it.

The disconnect between what I did and what I subsequently learned is a large part of the reason that I ended up being the kind of diver that I am. My experiences taught me that even a fairly intelligent and curious person can fail to ask the right questions, and fail to recognize what they don't know that they don't know.
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Post by Maverick »

Sounder wrote:Perfect response! :supz:



Preach on Reverend Mav!! \:D/ =D>
thats Rabbi Mav Dude
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Post by Joshua Smith »

Grateful Diver wrote:
Sounder wrote:Well, I guess the answer then is that the reason people are getting heated about solo diving is because that's been the topic yesterday and today. Tomorrow it could be about CCRs, and perhaps on Friday we could give wreck penetration a shot!

I think there are many hot button issues, and this one is simply the one we're talking about here.
Hey ... I got an idea ... let's have a "Hot Button of The Day" topic ...

Mondays it's solo diving
Tuesdays, CCR
Wednesdays, jackets vs backplates
Thursdays, split fins
Fridays, DIR

... and on the week-ends, let's all go diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm gonna start a sub-forum for "Solo CCR Wreck Penetration for Drunk Albino Amputee Single Mothers on Welfare."



Maybe that'll confuse everyone so much they'll forget to write inflamatory posts.
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Post by Joshua Smith »

Sounder wrote:
I don't think solo diving will be as accepted as nitrox is now. I believe nitrox becoming accepted is more of an indication of CCRs becoming mainstream.
I disagree. "Air is for tires" didn't come from the CCR camp.
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Post by lamont »

Sounder wrote: I don't think solo diving will be as accepted as nitrox is now. I believe nitrox becoming accepted is more of an indication of CCRs becoming mainstream.
i don't see the connection there...

if anything the acceptance of nitrox and trimix is leading to the acceptance of CCRs... i think you've got the tail wagging the dog...
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Post by Sounder »

Nailer99 wrote:
Sounder wrote:
I don't think solo diving will be as accepted as nitrox is now. I believe nitrox becoming accepted is more of an indication of CCRs becoming mainstream.
I disagree. "Air is for tires" didn't come from the CCR camp.
I guess I wasn't clear. What I'm saying is that I think it is more likely that CCRs will become accepted and mainstread than solo diving is. Saying that nitrox being a tool of diving is similar to CCR being a tool... and that solo diving isn't per say, a tool but rather a style. Perhaps CCR and EANx could be considered "styles" too, but I think there is a difference. Nitrox was proven safe when used with certain parameters... and recently CCRs have really started navigating the proving grounds well too. In my opinion, solo diving won't ever successfully navigate the proving grounds to become mainstream.

That's all. Do I make more sense now? Forgive me, I was writing that during the world's most boring finance class. It amazes me how a professor can spend the entire class talking about nothing.

...and air IS for tires. :salute:
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Post by gcbryan »

LCF wrote:Gray, I did that dive as part of a boat diving specialty, following a PADI instructor. Honestly, I'm ashamed of myself, that I just followed him down there, basically thinking, "He's an instructor and he thinks it's okay, so it must be okay." I hadn't given a lot of extra thought to diving, just what I was taught, and I do not recall being taught that there were any particular dangers in diving deeper, except you went through your air faster (and man, I monitored that gauge on that dive) and you could get this thing called narcosis (which I didn't recognize having there). Nobody had ever introduced the idea that I needed enough gas to get me AND my buddy to the surface, and I just hadn't thought about it.

The disconnect between what I did and what I subsequently learned is a large part of the reason that I ended up being the kind of diver that I am. My experiences taught me that even a fairly intelligent and curious person can fail to ask the right questions, and fail to recognize what they don't know that they don't know.
Thanks Lynne for your thoughts. I guess I was looking at it even a little more basically as a new diver who admitted to not being a natural right off the bat deciding to go to 130 fsw. Beyond not having enough air for you and your buddy it just surprised me that you would go that deep just because you were new. We know new divers sometimes have buoyancy problems, panic or for whatever reason need to get to the surface quickly and therefore usually keep their dives to 60 fsw until they feel more comfortable.

I was fairly comfortable right out of class and yet I never thought about going deeper before I knew what I was doing. However, I'm forgetting that you were in class. Actually, my 5th-8th dives were AOW so one of them was to 100 fsw for a few minutes as well. It's funny how we have a false sense of security just because we're in a class.

I was just thinking about how my first dives with just a buddy and I were all in 30 fsw until I got more acquainted with my gear. After several more dives I went to 60 fsw and went no deeper for quite a few more dives. My thinking was much more basic than gas planning for my buddy and I. I just knew that I was a new diver and needed to get experience shallow before getting really deep. I was just a gut feeling not a gas planning thing. That's why I was curious as to what you were really thinking at the same point in your dive career.

Thanks for the insights.
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Post by Grateful Diver »

Nailer99 wrote:
Sounder wrote:
I don't think solo diving will be as accepted as nitrox is now. I believe nitrox becoming accepted is more of an indication of CCRs becoming mainstream.
I disagree. "Air is for tires" didn't come from the CCR camp.
My thoughts had nothing to do with either "camp" ... they stem from historical parallels.

The state of solo diving today has some parallels to recreatrional nitrox diving in the late 80's/early 90's ... in that it's mostly an unsanctioned activity. Some of the minor agencies recognize it ... even offer a specialty class in it ... but most blatantly oppose it. Back then with nitrox it was IANTD ... today with solo it's SDI. But in both cases, most people who engage(d) in it skipped the formal training and just did their own thing.

What that led to with nitrox was a lot of unqualified users, little or no standards, and a lot of misinformation ... some of it put out there willfully for purely business reasons. Caught in the middle were a bunch of divers who could have benefitted from the knowledge to make informed decisions. Ultimately one of the major agencies (NAUI) "broke ranks" and recognized that, since people were going to do it anyway, it would be safer and better to establish standards and protocols ... and train people how to use nitrox safely. Once that happened, the rest were pretty much forced to either follow suit or lose market share to a competitor.

Today, solo diving's at a similar crossroads. Many (most?) of the people who solo have no formal training at it. Some are blatantly unprepared and unqualified to be doing it. And because of the stigma, they're trying to learn on their own, rather than seeking out help from people who could improve their chances of not having an accident.

To be perfectly blunt about it, I think there are those in the anti-solo camp who prefer keeping solo unnecessarily dangerous so they can use the accidents and deaths to justify their beliefs ... just as there were 15 years ago in the anti-nitrox camp. If you go back and read some of the old Skin Diver articles, you'll see a lot of parallels to the same arguments you read today regarding solo diving.

But as in all things, market forces will eventually prevail. The agencies have demonstrated over and over again that they're willing to compromise their own beliefs for market share. As an example, NAUI just recently lowered the minimum age for certification from12 to 10 ... and yet just a few years ago, when I was training to become a dive professional, there were passionate arguments about why that was too young. What changed? Certainly not the mental and emotional capacity of a 10-year old.

Uh uh ... it was driven by a demand from the public for that service, and the knowledge that ... as Dr. John would put it ... "if I don't do it, somebody else will".

I think the same thing's going to happen with solo diving.

Prohibition programs never work ... they just slow down progress, impede knowledge and prevent responsible decision-making.

That's really ... to my concern ... what this boils down to ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by Maverick »

I am SICK of being responsible- it's time to freaking GO DIVING. - Nailer99
\:D/
Maverick

Diving. . . is an active physical form of meditation. It is so silent- You're like a thought.

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
ANYTHING, BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE
STAIRS.
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Post by Zen Diver »

Nailer99 wrote:
I'm gonna start a sub-forum for "Solo CCR Wreck Penetration for Drunk Albino Amputee Single Mothers on Welfare."
while diving split fins

-Valerie :supz:
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Post by Rob Holman »

Grateful Diver wrote: To be perfectly blunt about it, I think there are those in the anti-solo camp who prefer keeping solo unnecessarily dangerous so they can use the accidents and deaths to justify their beliefs ...... Bob (Grateful Diver)
You have got to be freaking kidding me. You don't really believe that people want others to die to justify beielfs about something as petty as solo diving do you? That's one magic bullet.

Tell me you are kidding. Please.
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Post by Grateful Diver »

Rob Holman wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote: To be perfectly blunt about it, I think there are those in the anti-solo camp who prefer keeping solo unnecessarily dangerous so they can use the accidents and deaths to justify their beliefs ...... Bob (Grateful Diver)
You have got to be freaking kidding me. You don't really believe that people want others to die to justify beielfs about something as petty as solo diving do you? That's one magic bullet.

Tell me you are kidding. Please.
Rob, much of what I'm saying here is facetious ... of course, I don't believe that anyone actually WANTS someone to die.

I do think, however, that people are quick to jump on diver deaths to find ways to rationalize their own belief systems.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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Post by CaptnJack »

Grateful Diver wrote: I do think, however, that people are quick to jump on diver deaths to find ways to rationalize their own belief systems.
Maybe consider the deaths as actually evidence that those beliefs are well founded. Ya know Ocram's Razor?
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Post by Rob Holman »

Grateful Diver wrote: Rob, much of what I'm saying here is facetious ... of course, I don't believe that anyone actually WANTS someone to die.

I do think, however, that people are quick to jump on diver deaths to find ways to rationalize their own belief systems.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Good. Cause that would have been the dumbest thing I had heard in a long, long time. Starting out with "to be blunt" looses the sarcasm.
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Post by Rob Holman »

Zen Diver 2 wrote:
Nailer99 wrote:
I'm gonna start a sub-forum for "Solo CCR Wreck Penetration for Drunk Albino Amputee Single Mothers on Welfare."
while diving split fins

-Valerie :supz:
I nominate this best post of the year.
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