DIR: questions and answers

[LCF]

Rescue skills are now taught in Fundies, but they are, as you say, Bob, based on the equipment configuration we all use. That's why I continue to praise and recommend the PADI rescue class I took, which (or its equivalent) should be taken by everybody who dives.

[CaptnJack]

The potential issue, as I see it, is that the GUE-trained diver may not be qualified to affect a rescue outside his own team ... as illustrated by the recent incident at Cove 2. The first diver on the scene was someone from the DIR community. However, he had no rescue skills and had no clue how to operate an inline backup (Air2) to inflate the victim's BCD. Essentially, while he may have been well qualified to conduct basic safety drills with a similarly configured dive buddy, he was useless to help anyone else.

The stricken diver was ultimately brought to the surface by a much less skilled, less trained diver who arrived later.

One of GUE's failings, to my concern, is that they teach no rescue skills at all until Tech 1/Cave 1 ... and then they're only geared toward helping a similarly configured, similarly trained dive buddy. It wouldn't be a problem except that they don't recognize the need to take any training outside of what GUE teaches ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ahhh I did not know there was a unsuccessful rescue attempt and then a 2nd successful one.

I would freely admit that my ability to operate an Air2 is zilch, zero, nada. I might be able to figure it out expeditiously, but probably not to orally inflate one. (I would guess that I'm pressing the wrong button 1st, so it might take me awhile to figure out the tank is dry).

I'm not a professional rescuer though, I don't keep up on the vast array of equipment, recent innovations and how to work it all. So in alot of ways thats not much different than my ability to properly disable the batteries on a hybrid to rescue someone from a car wreck without zapping myself.

Although for the recent Cove2 death ditching the weights seems to have been neglected and that's (hopefully) what I would have done. Screw the Air2.

The "rescue" skills which I was taught in GUE classes (some fairly old now) are all predicated on not having a solo, OOA, unconcious diver on the bottom in the first place, cause by this point its a recovery anyway.

[gcbryan]

The potential issue, as I see it, is that the GUE-trained diver may not be qualified to affect a rescue outside his own team ... as illustrated by the recent incident at Cove 2. The first diver on the scene was someone from the DIR community. However, he had no rescue skills and had no clue how to operate an inline backup (Air2) to inflate the victim's BCD. Essentially, while he may have been well qualified to conduct basic safety drills with a similarly configured dive buddy, he was useless to help anyone else.

The stricken diver was ultimately brought to the surface by a much less skilled, less trained diver who arrived later.

One of GUE's failings, to my concern, is that they teach no rescue skills at all until Tech 1/Cave 1 ... and then they're only geared toward helping a similarly configured, similarly trained dive buddy. It wouldn't be a problem except that they don't recognize the need to take any training outside of what GUE teaches ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ahhh I did not know there was a unsuccessful rescue attempt and then a 2nd successful one.

I would freely admit that my ability to operate an Air2 is zilch, zero, nada. I might be able to figure it out expeditiously, but probably not to orally inflate one. (I would guess that I'm pressing the wrong button 1st, so it might take me awhile to figure out the tank is dry).

I'm not a professional rescuer though, I don't keep up on the vast array of equipment, recent innovations and how to work it all. So in alot of ways thats not much different than my ability to properly disable the batteries on a hybrid to rescue someone from a car wreck without zapping myself.

Although for the recent Cove2 death ditching the weights seems to have been neglected and that's (hopefully) what I would have done. Screw the Air2.

The "rescue" skills which I was taught in GUE classes (some fairly old now) are all predicated on not having a solo, OOA, unconcious diver on the bottom in the first place, cause by this point its a recovery anyway.

Dropping the weights underwater is frequently going to result in just a body recovery as well. Dropping on the surface would be the best course.

[Sounder]

I haven't thought about how some people who are highly focused on diving one way or another might not know how other gear and procedures.

i.e.: If a PADI diver has to fix something on a GUE diver's gear while they're diving (you pick the issue), they might not know how it's suppose to go. Likewise, if a GUE diver needed to do something with an Air 2 or integrated weights (or other issue), they might not know how it works.

Sure, in most situations I too could probably figure it out, but perhaps there IS benefit in learning about "the other side." Who knows?! Someone might even LEARN something!!

[dsteding]

I haven't thought about how some people who are highly focused on diving one way or another might not know how other gear and procedures.

i.e.: If a PADI diver has to fix something on a GUE diver's gear while they're diving (you pick the issue), they might not know how it's suppose to go. Likewise, if a GUE diver needed to do something with an Air 2 or integrated weights (or other issue), they might not know how it works.

Sure, in most situations I too could probably figure it out, but perhaps there IS benefit in learning about "the other side." Who knows?! Someone might even LEARN something!!

Isn't that the point of pre-dive briefings? I'm not going to plan for the fringe event of happening upon some random diver and having to fix their gear, there is only so far you can go with contingencies. If I dive with someone whose gear is different than mine, we'll go through both sets of our gear beforehand.

[Sounder]

I haven't thought about how some people who are highly focused on diving one way or another might not know how other gear and procedures.

i.e.: If a PADI diver has to fix something on a GUE diver's gear while they're diving (you pick the issue), they might not know how it's suppose to go. Likewise, if a GUE diver needed to do something with an Air 2 or integrated weights (or other issue), they might not know how it works.

Sure, in most situations I too could probably figure it out, but perhaps there IS benefit in learning about "the other side." Who knows?! Someone might even LEARN something!!

Isn't that the point of pre-dive briefings? I'm not going to plan for the fringe event of happening upon some random diver and having to fix their gear, there is only so far you can go with contingencies. If I dive with someone whose gear is different than mine, we'll go through both sets of our gear beforehand.

Yes it is. I agree that a briefing *should* generally mitigates any issues. I think that more information is better - because you never really know what you'll find.

I can definitely see the need for knowing more if you were a professional DM for vacationers or something.

[CaptnJack]

Sure, in most situations I too could probably figure it out, but perhaps there IS benefit in learning about "the other side." Who knows?! Someone might even LEARN something!!

Yeah the question starts to become how much training do you want to go through (and keep up on) for non-buddy people who are randomly getting into trouble. It seems like every couple years they redesign Air2 like things. I would prefer they didn't but I have enough of my own equipement to understand, maintain, and service without worrying about what someone dreamed up last month. The "standard stuff" sure we should all know how that works. But every possible integrated inflator or integrated weight system?? Sorry not for me.

[CaptnJack]

Dropping the weights underwater is frequently going to result in just a body recovery as well. Dropping on the surface would be the best course.

For the latest Cove2 recovery I would have dropped the weights if I couldn't figure out why the Air2 wasn't working. Or if he was so heavy that my BC wouldn't lift us both. 35ft isn't very far, I would risk a polaris acsent for myself if I dropped him.

Yes dropping ditching the weight may "kill him" if he wasn't dead already. But with a non-responsive, non-breathing, reg out of mouth diver UW you don't have time to fart around with an Air2 you don't understand. The 75% or whatever risk of embolism is still less than the 100% risk of drowning.

[Sounder]

Sure, in most situations I too could probably figure it out, but perhaps there IS benefit in learning about "the other side." Who knows?! Someone might even LEARN something!!

Yeah the question starts to become how much training do you want to go through (and keep up on) for non-buddy people who are randomly getting into trouble. It seems like every couple years they redesign Air2 like things. I would prefer they didn't but I have enough of my own equipement to understand, maintain, and service without worrying about what someone dreamed up last month. The "standard stuff" sure we should all know how that works. But every possible integrated inflator or integrated weight system?? Sorry not for me.

This is true - many people subscribe to the "latest & greatest" school of thought and others subscribe to the "tried & true" school. Realisticly I can see that I'll probably fall into the category of "I'll figure out the new stuff as fast as I can if I ever need to" but I'm just saying that I see value in pre-dive briefing with the "other side."

[CaptnJack]

Yeah that's one thing about DIR, there's rarely anything hot off the design tables. But if you just got your OW cert seeing something like a backplate or argon bottle might be daunting. Then again DIR divers aren't dying and needing to be recovered by strangers in Cove2.

The last few incidents I know of associated with DIR divers (none locally) have all been gas or DCS related and resolved via buddies and medical treatment without permanent injury. One was an extremely serious Type2 hit in Norway. The other was breathing a hypoxic mix in a basin in FL (cause the late summer weeds prevented getting deep enough fast enough) and passing out.

[CaptnJack]

One of GUE's failings, to my concern, is that they teach no rescue skills at all until Tech 1/Cave 1 ... and then they're only geared toward helping a similarly configured, similarly trained dive buddy. It wouldn't be a problem except that they don't recognize the need to take any training outside of what GUE teaches ...

Those ARE the courses Bob. DIRF was never intended to even be a course, it turned into one by happenstance. Andrew, the creator of the DIRF workshop is convinced that the whole rec-tech pass shebang is a disaster. He calls it a "death knell".

GUE has no way of knowing all the latest and greatest do-dads ginned up by the marketing engineers. If you wanna understand that stuff to "be a good citizen" there are plenty of places to get that info. GUE is a technical training agency, not recreational. You get the appropriate training for technical and cave "rescues" in those classes.

[Grateful Diver]

Although for the recent Cove2 death ditching the weights seems to have been neglected and that's (hopefully) what I would have done. Screw the Air2.

Again, this boils down to familiarity ... when you dive, and your buddies dive, with doubles that don't require ditchable weight, it's not something you're likely to think of.

Admittedly, it's easier to think of these things from the comfort of a keyboard ... but when one takes a Rescue class and goes through the actual exercise in OW, it increases the odds that you're going to think about it at the appropriate time.

The "rescue" skills which I was taught in GUE classes (some fairly old now) are all predicated on not having a solo, OOA, unconcious diver on the bottom in the first place, cause by this point its a recovery anyway.

One of the things we teach in Rescue class is that it's impossible to consider every possible permutation of diving accident, and prepare for them all. What the class attempts to do is to teach you a methodology for evaluating the situation and determining an appropriate course of action.

Sometimes you just have to "think outside the box" ... and in some ways, especially at the Fundamentals level ... GUE doesn't encourage that skill ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

i.e.: If a PADI diver has to fix something on a GUE diver's gear while they're diving (you pick the issue), they might not know how it's suppose to go. Likewise, if a GUE diver needed to do something with an Air 2 or integrated weights (or other issue), they might not know how it works.

Now you know why your NAUI Rescue class had you bring up an unconscious diver wearing doubles ... because the methods and equipment are different than the typical recreational diver is going to be familiar with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[mattwave]

[quote="Grateful DiverNow you know why your NAUI Rescue class had you bring up an unconscious diver wearing doubles ... because the methods and equipment are different than the typical recreational diver is going to be familiar with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)[/quote]

I have recently added Rescue of a CCR diver for that exact same reason.

[CaptnJack]

Sometimes you just have to "think outside the box" ... and in some ways, especially at the Fundamentals level ... GUE doesn't encourage that skill ...

Very true. "DIR divers" who have only taken DIRF have really only been exposed to the physical mechanics of DIR, not the intangible elements. As the previous discussion about which reg to go to when your deco bottle craps out shows, you can't memorize the answer.

[CaptnJack]

I have recently added Rescue of a CCR diver for that exact same reason.

Nice addition. One reason why I don't dive in mixed teams (my own failings in this regard).

[airsix]

I just want to say how pleased I am that this thread has stayed on such a good track.

My own experience to date:
Due to the Internet DIR troll stuff we've all encountered (i.e., the loud minority) I had reservations about DIR. But that was when Internet encounters were my only experience. I saw the light when I came to Seattle and met some DIR divers and they weren't trolls at all. They were awesome people. In fact they were so awesome that it was like a dream. Safe, fun, organized, fun, efficient, fun... Yes, I said fun. I know. I was surprised too. : )

I was drawn to DIR because I perceived it to be a safer way to dive. I was worried however that the increased safety would come at the cost of enjoyment (due to high focus on technical execution of procedures vs. "going down to have fun"). I found that my fears were unfounded. The opposite was actually the case. I have found that when I am diving with DIR divers I can actually devote more time and focus to enjoying the dive because the technical aspects of diving are taken care of in such an efficient manner. Lynn is right. DIR diving is fun. Partly because there is fun in developing abilities and skills, but also because it "gets the work done" so well that there's more opportunity to enjoy the recreational aspects of being underwater. That's my take on it anyway.

-Ben (not formally DIR trained, but that's where I'm headed)

[Sounder]

This is a great conversation - and one of the better DIR threads I've ever read.

Regarding the addition of CCR rescue to rescue class - that's a great idea too. It's along the same lines as a diver in doubles being something a "regular rec diver" wouldn't usually be trained in.

Off topic: I had an opportunity to learn, informally (out of a formal class setting), about CCR rescue and how to go through the steps to identify the problem and correct it (if possible) before ascending (if/when it is appropriate to ascend).

It was VERY interesting and informative, and is one more arrow in my quiver that I hope to never need. It's definitely something I'd like more practice on too.

Back on topic: I wish more people were willing to ask their questions about DIR. I think DIR divers are becoming more approachable (well, most) and I believe that even someone who has no interest in GUE training could benefit from some of the practices GUE teaches.

[mattwave]

This is a great conversation - and one of the better DIR threads I've ever read.



Back on topic: I wish more people were willing to ask their questions about DIR. I think DIR divers are becoming more approachable (well, most) and I believe that even someone who has no interest in GUE training could benefit from some of the practices GUE teaches.

I was asked yesterday does GUE require or suggest rescue training before learning Tech. I said I don't know and I wasn't certain if they offer a Rescue Course?

[Grateful Diver]

I have recently added Rescue of a CCR diver for that exact same reason.

That's awesome!

Perhaps you should consider setting up a class to teach this to all the instructors out there who don't know a thing about CCR's ... I'd take it.

With the increasing use of CCRs for recreational diving, I think it'd be invaluable ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[CaptnJack]

I was asked yesterday does GUE require or suggest rescue training before learning Tech. I said I don't know and I wasn't certain if they offer a Rescue Course?

They don't offer one and as a matter of policy they don't formally recommend courses outside of what they offer. That said, most people taking Tech1 have probably done rescue with another agency.

Would I recommend that? Yes, if for no other reason than it can take along time before you finally get into a Tech1 class (for many reasons).

[mattwave]

I have recently added Rescue of a CCR diver for that exact same reason.

That's awesome!

Perhaps you should consider setting up a class to teach this to all the instructors out there who don't know a thing about CCR's ... I'd take it.

With the increasing use of CCRs for recreational diving, I think it'd be invaluable ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ok, just talked to NAUI, it will happen.

[mattwave]

I was asked yesterday does GUE require or suggest rescue training before learning Tech. I said I don't know and I wasn't certain if they offer a Rescue Course?

They don't offer one and as a matter of policy they don't formally recommend courses outside of what they offer. That said, most people taking Tech1 have probably done rescue with another agency.

Would I recommend that? Yes, if for no other reason than it can take along time before you finally get into a Tech1 class (for many reasons).

Cool. :rr:

[gcbryan]

Yeah that's one thing about DIR, there's rarely anything hot off the design tables. But if you just got your OW cert seeing something like a backplate or argon bottle might be daunting. Then again DIR divers aren't dying and needing to be recovered by strangers in Cove2.

The last few incidents I know of associated with DIR divers (none locally) have all been gas or DCS related and resolved via buddies and medical treatment without permanent injury. One was an extremely serious Type2 hit in Norway. The other was breathing a hypoxic mix in a basin in FL (cause the late summer weeds prevented getting deep enough fast enough) and passing out.

To be fair, there's not a lot of experienced non-DIR divers dying and needing to be recovered by strangers in Cove 2 either!

One thing that stands out (to me) in all studies of death in diving is that most causes are so egregious that there's nothing to be learned from the report.

What did we learn in the recent death...don't dive solo when you are new, overweighted, anxious, and haven't really learned to dive yet?

The accident at Lobstershop Wall...don't use an air filled 80 cu ft tank with no redundancy to 200 fsw while diving with new divers?

Usually, the message is that you don't even have to be a good diver to avoid death. Just be competent and stay within your experience level. Practice, more education, experience, all that is great but even that isn't usually needed. It's usually just common sense. How do you teach that?

[CaptnJack]

Usually, the message is that you don't even have to be a good diver to avoid death. Just be competent and stay within your experience level. Practice, more education, experience, all that is great but even that isn't usually needed. It's usually just common sense. How do you teach that?

I think that's one reason I'm not sold on DIR being remotely needed for OW. Sure its nice (for me), but its far from the only way to recreationally dive safely. The one thing that DIRF does teach (most) students in humility. They just ain't God's gift to diving like they thought (I wasn't). So that tends to create a more cautious diver even if they don't go on to Tech1 or Cave1. The caution tends to make people move a bit slower in both their formal and their experience portions of their life education. I guess that's common sense.

I agree with you that far too many deaths loaclly have been kinda "duh" events. Don't swim the boundary line on an AL80, don't got to 200ft on an AL80, don't try to overcome panic attacks solo, etc.