Cookies vs. arrows?

[Peter Guy]

[I'm not Richard, I don't have DIR/UTD cave training and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, but that won't keep me from providing my answer.]

I can't figure out what additional information you'd get by having a "directional marked cookie" and thus why have it? As Richard has pointed out, the Cookie is always on YOUR exit side of whatever so by definition it gives your direction (THAT way stupid!). If put near an arrow, the space from the arrow to your cookie is pointing in the direction you'd be going (your exit). If put at a T, the space from the T to your cookie is pointing in the direction you'd be going (your exit). IF you just happen to drop your cookie on the line just for the heck of it (which identifies the line as "Yup, this is my line I'm following") since you just swam up to the cookie from someplace beyond it, it would seem to necessarily follow that you are going in the right direction towards your exit (I could posit a situation where that wouldn't be the case but there'd be so many CF's before you got there that maybe cave diving shouldn't be your thing).

I don't see any upside to having directionality.

The downside is if you put the cookie on wrong (or if having not put it on correctly in the first place, a following diver "helps you" by reattaching it but incorrectly) you've just given yourself bad information.

Me, I like the idea that cookies are non-directional and that arrows (which can't be confused with a cookie) are directional. K.I.S.S.

[CaptnJack]

As Peter said, having a "directional cookie" doesn't give you any additional information. Its way faster to install cookies if you don't have to think alot about which way the exit mark will face after you're done twisting it on. Cause sometimes you can install them with a full twist and sometimes there isn't enough slack or stretch to allow that (and you usually don't know that until you start installing it).

Its also definitely possible to install one backwards, the cookie in correct position but with the mark on the wrong side by accident. Your buddies would probably not pick up on this and have you correct it, since marking direction on cookies is by definition personal. So now as you return, your cookie is correctly located relative to the exit side but its "pointing" in?? Given this conflicting information, what are you going to follow and why?

IMHO, it is better to have one technique that you follow all the time, than multiple layers of information that may conflict with one another. I.e. a man with 2 watches never knows what time it is.

[CaptnJack]

Me, I like the idea that cookies are non-directional and that arrows (which can't be confused with a cookie) are directional. K.I.S.S.

Exactly, arrows are for direction. Cookies mark the exit side of things while avoiding messing with the general navigation of the cave.

[vbcoachchris]

This will most likely never be settled entirely, but here is some information to help you decide.

When I talked to Adam and Ela about these “little beauties” ("REM"'s); I asked about advantages and disadvantages in relation to cookies and line arrows.

Here is the summary of our conversation

A line arrow

Advantage

Gives you the direction of your exit.
Your teams jump line is tied directly into your arrow, so it is very difficult for your jump line to slide anywhere.
Some people get piece of mind following a line directly connected to an arrow pointing the way out of the cave in zero visibility.

Disadvantage

Could confuse other divers in a low visibility situation, by contradicting the caves permanent navigational arrows

The Cookie

Advantage

Does not contradict the caves permanent navigational arrows
Gives information only to the person or team that dropped it
In the event of a lost teammate it might give you information as to whether they have made it back to at least the spot where the cookies we dropped.

Disadvantage

Your teams jump line is not tied directly into your cookie, so some people feel the jump line could slide along the line you tied into (i.e. High flow, It catches on a careless diver who passes your line after you tie in, a careless scooter diver who runs into it.). If your line is moved it may become “slacked”, which is no fun at all in zero visibility.
A popular cave can have multiple teams inside on any given day. 4 teams that use the “cookie method” might find 12 cookies on a “T”. The 12th cookie might be far away from the “T”
Cookies marked for a direction are a BAD idea as Richard said. It would be easy to install incorrectly and easy for your teammates to miss.

The “REM”

Advantage

Does not contradict the caves permanent navigational arrows
Gives information only to the person or team that dropped it
Your teams jump line is tied directly into your” REM”, so it is very difficult for your jump line to slide anywhere.
Some people get piece of mind following a line directly connected to a “REM” pointing your way out of the cave in zero visibility.

Disadvantage

Theoretically could be put on incorrectly
Some would argue it is a more complex system that does not give you any more information than a cookie.

This is in a DIR/UTD forum. Do not lose sight of the advantage of standardization. Everyone in a team does the same thing, so we know what to do “when the fit hits the shan”.

For me personally: arrows are out because the potential disadvantage could be very problematic. As far as cookies and “REM’s”; IMHO I do not see either of these to have layers of complexity, as both methods are simple and straight forward.

I prefer the cookie method, but if the cave is a high traffic or VERY high flow; I would defiantly consider using a “REM”. I would be comfortable with either.

The “REM” address the only disadvantage I could see with the cookie method (sliding line; even though I think it a very remote chance).

As far as a disadvantage? If I cannot put the large fat end of the “REM” in the direction of my exit, when my life may depend on it, I most likely should not venture off the main line. In the event I perform a “Bonehead” thing like putting a “REM” on incorrectly, my teammates should catch this because it is EASY to spot and inform me. If they do not, I made a poor equipment selection before the dive even began.

I would never mix and match methods in a cave, but I do not mind using both methods independently. If I can’t remember if I dropped a cookie or “REM” even in a high stress situation; I again should not be venturing off the main line.

Scott

[CaptnJack]

Good summation Scott.

I actually like the pseudo-directional REMs and can see how they might be a big help in crowded system. Unfortunately after seeing people miscommunicate with an "ok" in a variety of situations, I won't ever dive without everyone personally marking our exit. Its amazing how someone (myself included) can look at a contrary arrow, or a junction and signal like they understand what it means but have a complete internal brainfart going on. Having everyone place a cookie is a much more positive confirmation of common understanding than having just one marker there and everyone merely "ok-ing" it.

[LCF]

Yeah, Peter watched both me AND Fred brainfart an arrow pointing into the cave in Yax Muul. Never underestimate the ability of the human mind to ignore the obvious.

[Sounder]

Thanks to you all for answering my question. That makes sense to me. Unnecessary + potential hazard if placed improperly = KISS and leave it at home.

Good stuff! Thanks again!

[LCF]

Yeah, this was a great thread, full of food for thought. The kind of thing internet conversations are really good for.