I need a Pony Bottle

[GillyWeed]

Hi Folks,

I still need to get a pony bottle. If anyone out there has suggestions as to what has worked for them in the past. (size, attatchments, regs, etc) I would appreciate the knowledge. I want it all of course. Something inexpencive, but that will attach easily and quickly. If any one out there has an extra pony bottle that they don't want any more because maybe they got a bigger, better one I am open to that as well...

Why does it always seem like there is another $300-$700 piece of equipment that we always need.. Next I will need Nitrox bottles. ARGH

Cheers,

Holly

[Aquanautchuck]

Hey Holly, I would not get anything less than a 19. Get a lp if you can. I know they are harder to find. I use a Pony Tamer for both my Argon and Pony bottle. It works great. The only disavantage is that if you travel and want to take your pony it won't work. A X Bracket does though. Sorry, no pony's for sale here.

Later
Charles

[CaptnJack]

I don't mean to start a war here, but there are alternatives to a pony.

A good buddy can provide gas redundancy and get you out of alot of other types of difficuties too (e.g. entanglement). Bob's (grateful diver) upcoming gas management seminar can provide you and your buddy many of the tools to provide gas redundancy for each other.

For dives <100ft I use a single tank. My buddy provides enough gas to get us both to the surface in the event of a reg or tank problem - I likewise. Dives greater than 100ft I use doubles and add a deco stage if that's necessary.

If you really want a pony, make sure you understand how much you need for various scenarios. Again, an understanding of gas consumption and usage will help you make a rationale choice. 40cf luxfer bottles are prefered for tech diving so if you're considering going that way, I suggest just getting that size to start.

Edit: This is my main point, explained better than I could. I just couldn't find it before so I typed out my synopsis out.
http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=31

Richard

[GillyWeed]

Hi CaptianJack,

Don't get me wrong.. I would never dive without my buddy and yes, he is there for redundant gas. However, in the unlikely event that he couldn't get his octo to me in time, because it got stuck or something else (this happened to the couple at Cove 2 if I am not mistaken) I would like to know my life is not in his hands. And what happens on those times when we decide to go diving with someone who is not our usual buddy? Do I know that they will perform their duties without panic? That's the reason for a pony for me. I don't typically dive more than 100' and usually I am around 60'-70' but redundancy is redundancy.. The more air the better, right?

Thanks for your info. It was a good read.

Cheers,

Holly

[CaptnJack]

IMHO, you really should treat your buddy like your life is in his/her hands - because it very well might be.

I dive with a long hose (7ft) and getting it to an OOA diver is as easy as passing it over. My octo is around my neck. We use strong lights and stay (relatively) quite close to one another - usually within 6ft.

Yes someone died in Cove2 recently. I wasn't there and only have heresay on the gear issues which might have contributed.

If you decide to get a pony, be sure and practice using it. I suggest slinging it like tech divers do, that way you'll be able to see the gauge. Otherwise you run the risk of it leaking or being turned off, or all sorts of other issues happening behind your head and preventing it from being there for you when you need it.

Before spending money, I still suggest waiting for Bob's gas management seminar - free at Fed Way UWS. Good info for helping to make your decisions. Lord I've bought oddles of stuff which I've ebayed off because I learned it wasn't for me.

Richard

[thelawgoddess]

Don't get me wrong.. I would never dive without my buddy and yes, he is there for redundant gas. However, in the unlikely event that he couldn't get his octo to me in time, because it got stuck or something else (this happened to the couple at Cove 2 if I am not mistaken) I would like to know my life is not in his hands. And what happens on those times when we decide to go diving with someone who is not our usual buddy? Do I know that they will perform their duties without panic?

if you haven't read "solo diving" (by robert von maier), i highly recommend it. even if you have no desire to dive solo, it is short, easy, fairly compelling reading and brings up these very types of buddy issues ...

[lamont]

However, in the unlikely event that he couldn't get his octo to me in time, because it got stuck or something else (this happened to the couple at Cove 2 if I am not mistaken) I would like to know my life is not in his hands.

You should really address the "stuck/caught octo" issue by fixing the root of that particularly problem which can be solved by going to a long hose config. I've done probably more than a hundred S-drills and I've never had an issue with not being able to deliver gas to the OOA diver, or to recieve it.

Also, a pony bottle does not eliminate this possibility. There was a fatality a few years ago where the diver (a DM) continued a dive solo, ran his backgas down to zero, and then his pony regulator was stuck behind him where he couldn't deploy it and he either drowned or embolised.

If you're going to use a pony bottle for redundancy I would suggest slinging it like a techdivers deco bottle and using an Al30 or Al40. This gear config has been thoroughly debugged and you can find a lot of divers who can help you set it up and use it -- and it places the first stage, second stage and tank o-rings right where you can see them if they're bubbling on the dive, along with being able to easily check the SPG, and gives you the ability to hand off the bottle along with being able to easily and consistently deploy the regulator, and you can easily manipulate the valve. You can do something similar with a pony bottle mounted upside down on the backgas and running it to a bungee necklace but you lose the ability to hand off the gas that way and you don't have the convenience of seeing leaks on the tank or first stage.

[Nwbrewer]

So, just out of curiosity, why do so many people want to go with a pony, vs. just small manifolded doubles? Maybe a set of steel 72's?

It seems like if there is a real concern that you need more gas for a given dive, or need more redundancy, why not just go all the way to manifolded, or even seperate doubles? Strapping the pony to one side of your tank just seems way more awkward than a set of doubles, and requires about the same amount of equipment. Any of the more knowledgable masses care to comment?

Jake

[dsteding]

Before spending money, I still suggest waiting for Bob's gas management seminar - free at Fed Way UWS. Good info for helping to make your decisions. Lord I've bought oddles of stuff which I've ebayed off because I learned it wasn't for me.

Richard

I'd second (or third) taking Bob's gas management seminar. As to your comment about not putting your life in your buddy's hands, or diving with people you aren't familiar with, I think a good pre-dive briefing, and an air share drill at the beginning of the dive are both necessities when diving with strangers. Talk signalling, location of their spare regulator, and yours, under what circumstances they will get a regulator in their face (if you dive a long hose), and what the procedures are for a OOA or low on air situation. Proper gas planning, of course, goes a long way to eliminating the circumstances under which a diver will go OOA (from situations where the tank gets run down OR situations where there is a gear failure, to situations where there is a gear failure only).

This, of course, assumes a certain level of familiarity with the other person's gear (which could be because you dive the same setup or because you took the time to look it over), as well as certain standardizations of procedures. But that is a different discussion . . .

One of the things about a pony is that it may give you a false sense of security. I haven't dived with them, but I can easily conceive of situations where one goes to the pony, only to find out it is empty because it has not been maintained, or that the reg is not accessible, or the reg itself decides to crap the bed on you at a bad time. At that point, you are back to relying on your buddy . . . so good buddy skills to start seems like a good idea.

[lamont]

Also, a pony bottle does not eliminate this possibility. There was a fatality a few years ago where the diver (a DM) continued a dive solo, ran his backgas down to zero, and then his pony regulator was stuck behind him where he couldn't deploy it and he either drowned or embolised.

Ben Giard:
http://northwestdiver.com/forums/showpo ... stcount=73

[Tom Nic]

A few simple thoughts... not for or against opinions given previously, (great advice, by the way!) just a few of my thoughts, take them or leave them.

I use a 19 cf Pony attached to my tank on my right side with the Reg clipped in the "triangle" in front of me.

I still have an octo on my main 1st stage, coming out on my left side, clipped in the "triangle" on the left side.

(Yes, that's alot of hoses, (3 Regs) but it's working for the kind of diving I do.)

I am intrigued by the long hose and necklace and have and will continue to explore that as an option. It is certainly worth considering.

I NEVER would use a Pony to extend a dive, only as a bailout for catastrophic failure. I breathe it before each dive, and I check it and top it off EVERY time I'm having my main tanks filled. It will frequently need topping off since I try and breathe it at the end of many dives in OOA drills. Since I dive within well within recreational limits, and HAVE taken Bob's Gas Management Seminar (awesome information, changed the way I dive), a 19 cu ft is enough gas for the way I dive. I DO NOT factor my pony gas into my dive calculations!! If I was thinking about doing deco dives in the future (which I am not) the idea of a 30 or 40 cu ft slung would be very interesting.

For me, I like the idea of complete redundancy that a pony can afford IF used properly. It is not the only system, but works for many of us.

I practice OOA drills with my buddy, both with the Octo and the Pony, although the Pony is primarily for me.

Whatever system you use, practice, practice, practice, and take into serious consideration who you are diving with.

Anyway, just my .02 PSI...

[CaptnJack]

Sorry to keep throwing scubaboard posts up, but this has been discussed so much over there it seems valuable...

A pony (and improper gas choices) can lead you here:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php? ... ostcount=1

I have several sets of doubles and they are no substitute for a good, attentive buddy, IMO. There's even more stuff, hoses, etc. to get tangled or pinched or be hard to reach before you've gotten everything in its proper place. I don't know how many times I've asked a buddy to free a hose (argon/suit mostly) that was all kitty wompus pinched behind me.

A squared away buddy is far more valuable than any gear.

Richard

[lamont]

Another thing to consider is there are are a lot of things you can do to avoid running entirely OOA on your backgas in the first place.

You should practice gas management and rock bottom pressures. For an OW diver on an Al80 the rule "10 psi per foot plus 300 psi (but no less than 500 psi)" works well (1300psi at 100 fsw). When you hit that pressure you should immediately ascend directly to the surface. On a dive to the I-beams you want to pad that out a little bit (1600 psi turn pressure) to allow for the swim back upslope. For HP130s the rule "10 psi per foot (but no less than 500 psi)" will also work reasonably well (1000 psi at 100 fsw).

[ this rule breaks down as you go deeper, and you need 1800 psi at 130 fsw rather than 1600 psi in an Al80, but you really shouldn't ever go to 130 on an Al80... ]

You can also make up gas plans. If you work out the numbers you get that 0.75 SAC rate is 300 psi / 10 mins / ata for an Al80 and 200 psi / 10 mins / ata for an HP130. That means that at 100 fsw on an Al80 you would plan to burn through 1200 psi / 10 mins. That means you would expect to get about:

3000 psi - 1600 psi (RB) = 1400 psi (usable)

1400 psi / 1200 psi * 10 min ~= 12 mins

If you've got a better SAC than that you should be able to get your consumption down to at least around 1000 psi / 10 mins on an Al80, so the time you plan on hitting your turn time at around 14 mins. Also, its easy to check every 5 or 10 mins to see where you are on your gas plan (starting with 3000 psi you should be around 2500 psi @ 5 mins and 2000 psi @ 10 mins).

If you do this, you shouldn't ever be surprised by running low on gas. Your buddy should also know roughly when you expect to hit your rockbottom pressure and should know what *time* you will turn at based on both available gas *and* available NDL. If you're doing good on the dive and have NDL and you are above your rockbottom you can extend the dive, but you should be able to guess very close to when you'll need to turn based on gas as well as NDL.

If you practice this, you should be able to largely eliminate the situation where you look at your gauge and its very low. That removes a lot of the need to do an air-share *right* *now*. Also if you start getting low on gas, but your buddy has more you should really throw an OOA on them when you've still got a few 100 psi left in your tank -- that gives you some time to complete the air share while you can still breathe out of your tank.

Now the remaining failure scenarios that require an OOA are going to be gas-loss issues and free-flows. Here you've also got some time to get your buddies attention and for them to deploy their octo. And if you find yourself buddyless with a free-flowing reg you should be able to surface at 60 fpm and then orally inflate as a last resort.

Breaking the accident chain by avoiding the situation where you have nothing left in your backgas and *then* you throw an OOA on your buddy is going to prevent a lot of potential accidents.

[CaptnJack]

I use a 19 cf Pony attached to my tank on my right side with the Reg clipped in the "triangle" in front of me.

I still have an octo on my main 1st stage, coming out on my left side, clipped in the "triangle" on the left side.

(Yes, that's alot of hoses, (3 Regs) but it's working for the kind of diving I do.)

Passing the reg to the OOA diver really does work well and is very simple with just a bit of practice. You might try it sometime, just to learn an alternative that a prospective buddy might use. I had a pony once (19cf with the 3 reg thing), was alot hoses and the 2nd stages can come loose and go all over - they did sometimes.

The other issue I have personally with the whole triangle concept is that is necessitates getting vertical in the water - fins down and potentially in the mud. If you're in good trim the triangle is not visible and the OOA diver is going to grab for the reg in your mouth blowing bubbles anyway.

Not saying anything is "wrong" with a pony, but many of us have tried it and since "regressed" to a ponyless system with a buddy backup instead (and more advanced gas management than 'return to the boat with 500 psi').

Its all about learning what works for you - I would hope without alot of purchases which end up on ebay since they didn't work out.

Richard

[John Rawlings]

I would never dive without my buddy and yes, he is there for redundant gas. However, in the unlikely event that he couldn't get his octo to me in time, because it got stuck or something else (this happened to the couple at Cove 2 if I am not mistaken) I would like to know my life is not in his hands. And what happens on those times when we decide to go diving with someone who is not our usual buddy? Do I know that they will perform their duties without panic? That's the reason for a pony for me. I don't typically dive more than 100' and usually I am around 60'-70' but redundancy is redundancy.. The more air the better, right?

Hey, Holly!

I assume that you have given this much thought and have decided that a pony bottle is right for you. I am a firm believer in divers making their own informed decisions about gear configuration and choosing the configuration....and diving philosophy....that is right for them.

You have cited some sound reasons for the use of a pony. Like ANY piece of dive equipment a pony can be unsafe if not used or deployed properly. It can also be completely safe if used properly and for the purpose it was designed for.....self rescue if the completely unexpected occurs. A pony should never be used as a means of extending a dive, but should be considered as serious safety equipment.....from your comments I think that you already know that.

Since others have been trying to convince you of the "error of your ways", I'll make an effort to directly answer your questions.

A 19 cf bottle seems to be the most commonly used with a pony rig, with some divers using up to a 40cf - all of those sized tanks are readily available at dive shops everywhere. Some divers mount their pony bottles on their main tank and there are several different brackets available. I use a "Pony-tamer" to attach my small argon bottle to my doubles, and I've seen some divers use that bracket to attach pony bottles as well.

Others use the sling method employed by technical divers. I'm a "sling guy" myself, since I want complete and total access to my equipment at all times. With this method the bottle is slung beneath the diver's arm (usually the left) with the valve up. The regulator 2nd stage and hose is generally held onto the pony bottle itself with bungies so that a quick yank will deploy it. While some divers do not employ a pressure gauge on their pony, I believe this is a foolish thing to do. Many use a small "botton" pressure gauge to cut costs, but I prefer a quality SPG on a small 3" hose that I can read easily underwater. When my bottle is slung under my left arm all I have to do is glance down to read my SPG and I can deploy the regulator within seconds with no muss and no fuss. After years of tech diving with stage bottles, slung tanks are second nature to me. For recreational divers, though, using a "slung" bottle for the first time is quite different and takes practice....but then, divers should practice with their chosen configuration regularly anyway.

I note that you commented on getting something "inexpensive". When was the last time you found good, quality dive gear in thatcategory? Hee Hee Hee! If you are serious about your pony being used only for self-rescue in unexpected and drastic situations, why would you want a cheap, shoddy regulator on it? Your life will depend on that regulator, if it is needed, every bit as much as it does on the performance of your primary regulator. get a good, solid reg and keep it well maintained. Whatever you really do here, it isn't going to be cheap.....

Bottom line: study the alternatives.....decide the best course of action for you.....act on your decision.....then be prepared to stand by your decision on your configuration and explain why it works for you to all comers, (until you are convinced that something better exists! HA!). Gear configuration will be something that for you will always be evolving.

Best regards!

John

[Joshua Smith]

My .02:

I posted about this same thing a while back. For the same reasons you did, Holly. I've dived w/ "Buddies" who I probably wouldn't trust to water my plants while I was out of town, let alone save my butt in an emergency. And I like the good feeling I get when I have one with me. I feel pretty confident about my ability to self-rescue, but a blown burst disc or first stage O-ring is something I can't fix underwater. "Better to have and not need, than need and not have", as the old saying goes.

I carry a 40 cf "slung" on my left side. I thought that having it mounted to my main tank was defenitely going to be for me, but I didn't like it there- it kept throwning my trim off, no matter how I moved my weighting around, and it just never felt "right."

So, I bought a pony sling for 40$ (yeah, I know, you can make your own- it saved me a day of driving around shagging parts, so it was worth it to me) and some bungee cord, and I rigged the regulator into the bungees so I can deploy it with a firm tug. Here's a pretty good LINK to a "how to" for what I'm trying to describe.

Anyway- I really like it slung, as opposed to mounted on my tank- I got a "button" type spg for it, and I can reach the valve, reg, and spg with ease, and I hardly know it's there when I'm underwater. I deploy it on safety stops once in a while, just to make sure it works, and sometimes I do it with my eyes closed, just to simulate a low vis/ lost mask scenario. I have a Scubapro MK 25 on it, BTW. I agree with Mr. Rawlings- if you ever need your pony bottle, you really need it- this isn't a good piece of equipment to skimp on!

[Joshua Smith]

So, just out of curiosity, why do so many people want to go with a pony, vs. just small manifolded doubles? Maybe a set of steel 72's?



Jake

Well, I'm not trained for doubles yet, for one thing. I set my pony rig up for a lot less than doubles would run, for another. And- I really like diving deep- 80-130 fsw always seems to be my favorite part of a dive (or a wee bit deeper, on occasion!) I realize that that's not deep by lots of people's standards (*cough*johnrawlings*cough*), but for me, it's deep enough right now, and I made a choice to carry some insurance with me. So, if my buddy gets eaten by a 6-gill or wanders off on his/ her own and I have a catastrophic equipment failure at that particular moment, I still have a shot at making it to the top alive.

[GillyWeed]

I note that you commented on getting something "inexpensive". When was the last time you found good, quality dive gear in thatcategory?

John, by inexpencive I kind of was hoping to find a pony from someone who maybe had gotten a bigger tank and didn't need their bottle anymore. I understand that all dive equipment is not created equal. I dive a scubapro reg, but my octo is a oceanic and I regularly breathe it and check it underwater and it is a good octo. It wasn't the most expencive but it is good. If you keep your regulators checked and serviced regularly why would you need to buy the most expencive one? I would not buy the regulator from someone but a pony tank and an attachment system seems fairly inocuous. You have to have the pony tested just like a regular tank but a regulator doesn't have a marking on it to say if it has been tested.. I digress.

I was just hoping to stay under $500. I don't know if it is possible but it was my hope. I can always do what I have done with just about every piece of equipment I have. Buy one piece at a time and maybe in 6 months I will have a pony system.

I posted about this same thing a while back. For the same reasons you did, Holly. I've dived w/ "Buddies" who I probably wouldn't trust to water my plants while I was out of town, let alone save my butt in an emergency. And I like the good feeling I get when I have one with me

Nailer.. You hit it on the head.. That is the exact reason that I want a pony system. Sometimes I might be diving with someone with a lot less experiance than me, or someone who has been out of the water for a while and although we might practice our skills when we first go down, as they haven't been doing 2-3 times a week like I have, it will not be second nature to them. In those cases I want to know I can take care of my self. It would be wonderful if we could always dive with the same 'perfect' buddy who has no stress or panic level and who watches our back continuously throughout every dive. That isn't realistic for me. I am usually the more conservitive one. But does that make my buddy a bad guy because he is more distracted than me? Not as long as I know how he is, he is still a good buddy.

I am not sure how a sling would work for me. I have enough issues with all of my equipment trying to not get it in my way. hmmm.

I was kind of wondering how a pony on the side would work though also. I have a buddy that has a pony on the side and he and I have similar dive styles so that's why I figured I could try the conventional pony system out. I agree with Tom Nic that the reg and SPG should be in the front triangle system. How else are you going to know if the reg is free flowing? I understand that you cannot see if the tank is leaking.. But that is one thing I do rely on my buddy for. If they cannot tell me that my tank is bubbling then I shouldn't be diving with them.

There is a lot more to think about with a pony bottle than I first realized. That's kind of why I started this post... I know there is a lot of experiance on this board and it is good to get everyone's opinion. (whether I agee or not) =)

I am not even a deep diver.. I am happiest at 60-70'. And I am going to take Bob's gas management class because I am always trying to learn everything I can. I feel that's how I am going stay safe. Learning and practice. And frankly the thought of going more than 120' (my deepest to date and that was in Adv. OW class) is a little creapy to me.. But I want to be as safe as possible down there and so I am concidering a pony system.. Still no closer to actually getting one but working on it... =)

Thanks,

Holly

[Grateful Diver]

Holly ... if you want to try out a sling bottle sometime, let me know. We can go diving and you can try out mine. That way I can brief you on how to set it up and use it properly ... and you can make an informed choice about whether or not this approach is right for you.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[GillyWeed]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the invite! Let me know when is good for you. I can usually dive after work on W-F around 5:30 or later... On Saturdays and Sundays I can usually dive in the mornings or whenever. I would probably want to try someplace familiar with a new setup.

If you think I should go to your Gas seminar first that's ok too..

Cheers,

Holly

[Tangfish]

Nailer, Bob and I are preemptively spreading the Christmas cheer and you come along and give us that ghastly view of drunken, passed out Santa!

[Sorry for interrupting the thread]

[John Rawlings]

Nailer, Bob and I are preemptively spreading the Christmas cheer and you come along and give us that ghastly view of drunken, passed out Santa!

[Sorry for interrupting the thread]

Drunken? Passed out? Heck.....I figured that ol' Saint Nick had been shot!

[Grateful Diver]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the invite! Let me know when is good for you. I can usually dive after work on W-F around 5:30 or later... On Saturdays and Sundays I can usually dive in the mornings or whenever. I would probably want to try someplace familiar with a new setup.

If you think I should go to your Gas seminar first that's ok too..

Cheers,

Holly

One day next week works (except Monday or Thursday) ... since we're both in Federal Way, perhaps Redondo would be the place. Let me know what day works best for you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[GillyWeed]

Hi Bob,

Ok for me next week unfortunately Wednesday is out.. But I can do Friday for sure. We could meet at Redondo around 5:30 or so..

Let me know..

Thanks again

Holly

[Grateful Diver]

Hi Bob,

Ok for me next week unfortunately Wednesday is out.. But I can do Friday for sure. We could meet at Redondo around 5:30 or so..

Let me know..

Thanks again

Holly

That'll work ... anybody else wanna join us?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)