New thought on a rescue technique, for discussion - NHZ

[Sounder]

Disclaimer: This is not a substitute for a good scuba rescue class. Please take one, even if you're a new diver. I always suggest taking Rescue as your first class post initial OW certification and to take an emergency medical class at the same time.

The background:

I've been debriefing with a few different people following Jake's incident. Lynne and I were talking the other day and she had the thought about leaving the gear on the patient to aid in compressions when the patient is wearing a back plate and wing. This wouldn't have changed the outcome with Jake as just before CPR I had wedged the 130 into a "slot" in the rocks to put the plate where I could use it as a back board for chest compressions, but had the plate been out of position, compressions wouldn't have been as efficient.

So while this wouldn't have changed the disposition of Jake's incident, I thought of something that would have made it easier and something I believe warrants discussion and consideration...

The problem:

Getting Jake up the rocks was quite challenging due to his size, the rocks being large, irregular, and slippery, and the grade of the hill we were climbing. This was compounded by the fact that Jake was in a wetsuit and was hard to maneuver.

The training:

In rescue classes, and for emergency medical personnel, we're taught to cut the suit off to expose the chest in CPR situations or to cut the suit in an appropriate manner to expose an injury (obviously we may just cut a seal for a broken wrist or something, but in CPR situations, or "CPR is imminent" situations we're going no holds barred - the suit is toast). We're also taught to cut off the gear to simplify things. Typically around here we're going to be facing either a vest BCD of some sort or a back plate and wing of some sort. We're taught to cut the webbing on bp/w rigs and to cut the shoulder fabric or straps or release the plastic buckles (good luck here though - if I'm working on you, I'm not wasting time with buckles... I'm cutting). In some situations, rescue classes say to haul them onto shore/boat and then cut stuff off as per protocol.

My reasoning:

BCD fabric and straps and bp/w straps make great "handles" for maneuvering, lifting, and hauling people. The hard piece in the back of a BCD and the plate portion of the bp/w make great temporary back boards to aid in better chest compressions. Tanks are heavy, cumbersome, and completely unnecessary to the mission of providing emergency medical care and CPR. Regulators also get in the way and are unnecessary for CPR. One of the tenants of my approach to diving is that everything should be able to be cut-away if necessary. This goes for my canister light, anything on a bolt-snap, my stage and deco bottles, my harness, my scooter, my ditchable weight, etc.

My idea:

While this is, of course, very situational, what if cutting the BCD or bp/w straps off isn't the default. My idea is to cut the cam-bands (or quickly release the metal cam-band if it is an older metal version) which are holding the tank to the back so the tank can be removed while leaving the "back board" and "handles" of the BCD or bp/w in place for maneuvering, lifting, hauling, and to aid in CPR. The BCD or bp/w straps can always be cut off later, but why remove something that could be a resource before you're positive you won't need it? Lose the weight and the cumbersome stuff, keep the potential resources, especially when they're not really going to be in your way.

In Jake's case, it would have made it much easier to move him and get him up the hill had we had the back plate still in place without the tank and regulators... a LOT easier, faster, and safer for both the patient and the rescuers. Upon reaching the grass, we could have realistically removed the plate and harness in 5 - 10 seconds.

Gear considerations:

This is not a bash one or the other argument, but a practical discussion of the merits of being rescued wearing one versus the other.

To me, this creates another argument in favor of the back plate and wing gear configuration, but it can be applied to other styles of BCD as well. One complication I can see in Jake's case would be that lifting him by a traditional BCD with plastic buckles would have the potential for the buckles to break or come un-done under the strain at an inopportune moment which could lead to rescuer and/or patient injury as the rescuing personnel wouldn't be prepared to deal with a sudden loss of "handle." Continuous webbing would have a MUCH (almost 100%... but never say never) greater chance of staying intact as the strength of the webbing is designed with strength no plastic buckle or sewn piece of fabric can match.

Additionally, while the solid piece in the back of a traditional BCD would help with compressions, I believe a rigid metal or kydex back plate, with no padding and which can be more easily positioned, will provide a better and more efficient "back board" for CPR compressions. Additionally, if on an uneven surface like the rocks we were on, the plate would not bend at all as some plastic back-pieces might, when it was against very uneven surfaces and being pushed-on repeatedly as chest compressions are being administered (especially if they're good compressions).

Discussion:

I've bounced this off a couple people and would appreciate some constructive discussion on it. Next I would like to test this technique a few different times in a few different situations to see if there are any "ah ha!" moments of learning what works and what doesn't when it's actually being used.

So approach this from any angle you can - as an engineer, a medical professional, a diver, a rescue diver, a bystander who's helping, an instructor, from a boat, from shore, as technical or recreational (or both), as OC or CCR (or both), etc. I'd really appreciate a thoughtful discussion on the idea. This obviously applies to single-tank diving, but if it sparks any other ideas for you on possible rescue techniques, please toss them out there (and don't take counter-arguments to your ideas personally) - this is a brainstorming thread.

Next, I think I'd like to do some testing of it. Perhaps in Bob's April rescue class that some of you are enrolled in, perhaps during one of Valerie's first-responder classes, and then I'd also like to test it in the area where Jake's incident occurred as that was a pretty complex extrication scene as our local shore diving goes.

Thank you in advance for your participation in this technique-specific "what we can learn" thread.

[scottsax]

Hmm... What you're saying makes total sense to me. I don't have any further thing to add at this moment, but I'm willing to be a guinea pig in rescue class in April.

EDIT: after reviewing what others have said, I'll still be a guinea pig, just not in class!

[Nwbrewer]

Label this NHZ.

I think this is going to be situationally dependent, but I see two major issues that need to be dealt with when cutting the tank away. 1) Better make sure and remove any bungeed reg first, having the tank hanging from your neck would not be good. 2) The BCD hose will need to be removed, not cut or the leak would have the hose slapping around by the victims face. There may be other things I haven't thought of, but that's what jumps out at me. You're right though, when facing a larger victim that must be maneuvered onto a boat, or through rough terrain with a board, leaving the webbing or straps intact may be a good idea.

As with all things rescue related, it's situation dependant, no rule will apply to every situation. Use your head, do what makes sense at the time.

The optimal solution in most cases is a backboard if you have one.

Jake

[enchantmentdivi]

My BC might aide in moving me around using the straps, but it has no hard plate (plastic or otherwise) in the back. So, it could not serve as a substitute back board.

[defied]

Mt concern is going to be attachment points on the hoses. You'll now have to release the BCD QD, the Drysuit QD, secondary reg (no matter where it is).

If you unbuckle, or cut through the harness, and cut through the drysuit, you don't need to undo the QD's. So maybe, time wise, it's a one for one.

Doing chest compressions on someone with a backplate is a great idea, but transporting them leaves something to be desired. Getting them on a backboard before moving them would be key, as the back board will support the head better than someone holding the vics head while others are moving them.

The cinch down on the BC, may prove a non issue for the diver breathing, but could encumber air to the passageway of an unconscious vic, as is is a heavy item that is strapped to the divers chest.

Compression wise, having them at least lay on their backplates as opposed to soft sand is a great idea.

D(B)

[60south]

Depending on the hose configuration, there may also be octos and gauges clipped to D-rings or attached somehow. You'll have to make sure all of those are detached before removing the tank.

[Grateful Diver]

Label this NHZ.

I think this is going to be situationally dependent, but I see two major issues that need to be dealt with when cutting the tank away. 1) Better make sure and remove any bungeed reg first, having the tank hanging from your neck would not be good. 2) The BCD hose will need to be removed, not cut or the leak would have the hose slapping around by the victims face. There may be other things I haven't thought of, but that's what jumps out at me. You're right though, when facing a larger victim that must be maneuvered onto a boat, or through rough terrain with a board, leaving the webbing or straps intact may be a good idea.

As with all things rescue related, it's situation dependant, no rule will apply to every situation. Use your head, do what makes sense at the time.

The optimal solution in most cases is a backboard if you have one.

Jake

That's pretty much the way I see it too.

Scuba agencies teach removing the rig as a unit for a reason ... because it simplifies the process and it saves time. When you make a decision to separate the cylinder from the BCD, you then also have to consider that the reg is attached to the cylinder ... which means you have to remove the reg from its BCD attachment points. Those will vary, depending on what type of reg configuration a diver is using ... and are not something that can be quickly and simply done ... especially in rescue situations where they're not likely to be clipped off and may, in fact, be trapped underneath the diver's body in the process of moving them to shore. And cutting pressurized hoses is a decidedly BAD idea.

I don't think this is something I want to experiment with as part of the upcoming Rescue class, because I can see a HUGE potential here for a NAUI Standards violation, which I would not be able to justify. I'd be perfectly willing to participate in an informal exploration of the problem, as a gathering of friends looking for a better way of doing things ... but it isn't something that should be presented in a class until we can run it by the certifying agency to make sure it doesn't present any liability issues for the instructor and agency. While NAUI encourages situational improvisation, you always want to make sure that your changes from SOP don't do more harm than good. And I'll admit that I'm a bit skeptical that the potential benefits are worth the potential for losing time or creating confusion that would impede prompt victim care.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BDub]

Like others have mentioned, disconnecting the hoses, bungees, etc is going to be a real distraction, PITA and time consuming.

If you want something rigid on their back, cut them out of their backplate, have someone get the bp off the tank and slide it back under the victim, while you're giving compressions.

This is a 2 person job, but the method you described above is a 2 person job and is a cluster waiting to happen, making the situation even worse, IMO.

[Dmitchell]

Every situation is going to be different so this is hard to answer. I appreciate where you are Mentally and emotionally after this incident and thinking it through and talking about it helps and who knows you might come up with something.

I wasn't at Jake's incident so I don't know what would have helped in that particular case. Maybe a different route to the street? A straight line is not always the most efficient? A Stokes litter perhaps? Again, I wasn't there and you guys did your best, as far as I'm concerned.

Generally, I would think that getting them out of the gear is the most effective approach. The time spent trying to cut cambands or other things is time lost to CPR and if they are in doubles or CCR this is moot anyway. If need be, take that time to move them to a better location. I've been on several scenes where CPR is being performed in a bathroom or cramped hallway, you have to move them to a better location.

Effective CPR compressions don't require a very rigid surface, the gurney in the ambulance is padded, they don't remove the pad to do CPR. If you have them on decent ground the BP would add no benefit (other than handles) . If they are on a bed then of course you need to get them off but the ground should be plenty firm.

Personally, I would think that more manpower (which may not always be available) is a better option than trying to mess with the gear. And like was mentioned above, now you have BC inflators, SPG's and whatever else to get off the harness and out of the way. Was an AED available at Jake's incident? As I recall, I was told the FD responds pretty quick to that site, but is there an AED anywhere near the site? The gear has to be gone to hookup the AED and I want the AED on the patient as quick as possible.


Another thought, I've installed a metal belt buckle one my left shoulder strap lower rib area (ala 1960's style). I know it's not kosher with some gear scheme's but if you ever need to get me out of my rig you don't have to cut anything, pop the waist, pop the left buckle, and I'm out. Doesn't matter what configuration I'm wearing (Single, Doubles, CCR) it's simple, cutting web takes time. Maybe it's time that this be considered by some of the more rigid agencies as a potential improvement to the BP/W standard. I've walked to the water with 2-80's and a 40' hanging off that side without any problem.

My $.02

Dave

[dsteding]

The beauty of rig removal is that it works for all types of rigs: jacket BCs, single tank BP/W combos, or doubles.

Sounder, I think this is a bit of over thinking. While this may have helped with Jake, standardizing it as a solution is a bad idea--what if someone is trained to "cut the cambands" and then encounters a doubles setup (no cam bands) or a set of cam bands that doesn't lend itself well to being cut (and, come to think of it, cambands are way more rigid than regular webbing--probably harder to cut).

We're talking minutes to smoothly react. Fumbling with a rig that won't lend itself to this protocol is a time waster. Obviously, time is precious here.

[edm81363]

Hi Doug -

This is an excellent topic. I'm glad to see you thinking "outside the box" to be able to assist in the future.

As mentioned, the numerous devices connected to the reg make a "cut the tank off" approach tricky. However, you're really onto something here. Divers in a rescue situation should employ thinking and decision making that is not restricted by previous experience or habits.

Turning off the air (maybe purging) and cutting everything from the first stage could make dumping the tank feasible. It sounds like the specific situation that raises this question involved a lengthy and difficult extraction route. Having a patient already in a harness could be very helpful.

From reading your post, I have learned (and reminded myself) that anything goes in a rescue situation, including novel approaches that expedite the movement and care of an injured diver.

[enchantmentdivi]

Another thought.... if a rescuer turns air off, cuts everything, and/or disassembles gear versus just removing the entire kit, does that then compromise the ability to later examine the gear to determine if anything was faulty, not hooked up properly, etc???

[Sounder]

Another thought.... if a rescuer turns air off, cuts everything, and/or disassembles gear versus just removing the entire kit, does that then compromise the ability to later examine the gear to determine if anything was faulty, not hooked up properly, etc???

I'm not going to sweat altering the gear for an emergency - I can tell them what I did later.

I'm also not saying that this should become "the way" but rather I'm thinking of it as another option which, obviously, is situational. In this instance, having the straps would have been very helpful in moving him around. We had the man power to continue CPR while someone else could have popped off the inflator hose and drysuit hose (if applicable). Agreed - this is probably not the best option for in-water rescue because if you missed something, it'd turn into more of a cluster.

In our case, we removed the necklace immediately in anticipation of CPR. A quick unsnapping of the spg and inflator would have been all we needed (primary was not clipped off). It would have been fast - I was cutting him out of stuff between compression cycles while Sean was giving breaths.

Back board is optimal, but getting him on the board was part of the challenge... and it was definitely a challenge. Once on the board, we could have VERY quickly cut and pulled the plate/harness away.

So, in this case it would have worked... but there are definitely complicating factors that various situations will involve.

Great discussion thus far - lots of "what ya didn't think of."

...and as for testing during a rescue class, I agree. I hadn't thought of it that way, but Bob's right. Let's try this outside of a sanctioned class.

AED was not available at the time - that would have been my first move. I am exploring the options of getting an AED at Cove 2 presently (any help there is appreciated too).

What else comes to mind? Other ideas?

[LCF]

As I said in my thread on 'what we can learn", there were a lot of lessons here. One of them was that people who get into serious trouble at Cove 2 are highly likely to beach themselves where access to them is difficult, and where doing effective CPR is hard, too. It was in thinking about the rock walls that it occurred to me that perhaps leaving the backboard underneath Jake might have made compressions more effective and made it easier to move him.

I don't know how easy it would have been to get to the cambands and cut them, but they're just webbing, so they should have cut about as well as harness.

If you're a single rescuer, trying to get things done as fast as you can to get compressions started, cutting the harness and getting the person off his gear is clearly the fastest, least complicated strategy. But in this case, we had three people, so there would have been no need to stop compressions to unclip anything or remove hoses.

I don't think Doug is recommending this as a universal approach, but I think he's doing what I did, which is to consider the idea that completely removing gear immediately shouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction (which it was for us, having been taught this way) but something which should be at least briefly evaluated as to whether it's the right thing to do, and to do at that moment.

I don't think anybody would argue against getting the tank separated from the victim expeditiously.

[kenpodan]

Great thread!
I just thought I'd toss in my 2 cents worth to it, and offer to help 'test' any new ideas anyone has for Rescue techniques...I'm an ER nurse, and (formerl) hyperbaric emergency nurse. I wasn't involved in Jake's incident at all, but I was on scene for a attempt to rescue a diver at Cove 2 last January - had simillar issues there, but for us we got the patient to shore on the rocky beach and my dive buddy (who had waded into the water to help get the patient up the beach) was pulling gear off the guy as we got him out of the water. I had lost my knife and frankly didn't want to spend any time hunting for anything so we started CPR with his dry-suit on - got good pulses as we did compressions so it didn't compromise anything at all to have his suit on; but I did learn a quick lesson on how hard it is to do CPR with all of MY gear still on. Oops...
I am all for any new ideas or techniques that we can employ to help divers out there, and getting an AED at the coves is a GREAT idea - but where to keep it so it won't get stolen, and yet we still have quick accsess to it? Keep an oxygen set-up with it? What about a back-board as well? I suspect that would have helped get Jake up the rocks (do those things float? i have no idea...) quicker. From what I have read/heard about that incident I really don't see where anything could have been done differently or better and I don't think there would have been any different outcome had he had a heart attack somewhere else - just his time to go, as sad as it was. But, hey, if we can come-up with good ideas/techniques for helping future rescues, why not try some out?
If you'all set-up a 'practice' dive or something let me know, I'll jump in and play victim!

[loanwolf]

This is a good topic it gives people Ideas for things to put in the tool box. But be careful you can be opening yourself up for lawsuits should something go wrong and you did something that is not the standard. The good samaritan law is not very strong anymore. One main reason to remove the rig is to lighten the individual up and make them more manageable. Majority of divers that are using a back-plate are going to be tech divers or those going that way. many of them do not have dump-able wights or have tank straps that can be cut away they will have twins or a single tank adapter bolted tough the back plate if they are diving a single. as for cutting away gear this is a argument that some have had with the Hogarthian way of no QD's on the shoulders. We have done may tests and a QD is much faster to get a person out of their rig than trying to cut away gear. Not to mention it is much safer for the victim for yourself and others helping with the rescue. Majority of recreational BCD's are either soft-packs (no back-plate) or have a small molded piece of plastic for a back-plate. If you were to try and do CPR with the design of most plastic back-plates you risk doing substantial spinal injury to the victim. The gear should be removed in the water at the shore line this is much easier than trying to remove it once you have the victim on shore or in a boat. I was not their for Jake's incident but as for having been a EMT and firefighter in the past we would not have started CPR until we had the victim in a place that ensures both the safety of the rescuers and the victim. This is all situational awareness that needs to be taken into account. Sometimes it is better to take a little longer before starting CPR than attempting to do it in a bad location. IE swim a little longer to a better location or take the time to get them to leveler ground. The eforts put into the rescue can be more effective and it is much safer for the rescuers. The last thing you want is more victims with injuries.

[lamont]

This does sound like post-accident hyper-analysis (not really being critical in that comment, I just recognize the symptoms).

The first step to get done here should probably be going out and comparing the time it takes to tow a diver in distress from the honey bear over to cove 2 proper versus trying to take them directly up the rock wall, even with backboards or intact backplates, etc. I don't know who you're going to get to be the victim to replicate going up the rock wall though unless you get them a helmet and some football pads though.

[lamont]

as for cutting away gear this is a argument that some have had with the Hogarthian way of no QD's on the shoulders. We have done may tests and a QD is much faster to get a person out of their rig than trying to cut away gear. Not to mention it is much safer for the victim for yourself and others helping with the rescue.

Back when I took Bob's rescue course, I cut cheryl out of her gear and it was quick and I managed to not slice her open. I think I did it with EMT shears though rather than a knife.

[ljjames]

I'm glad loanwolf posted this...

That was the one thing that came to mind when reading everything as well:

Swim him around the big ripraff (I assume when you are saying rocks that is where he was, straight in from the honeybear)

Get him to the beach.

IN this case, the minute the weight belt and gear is ditched, you've got a floaty maneuverable patient. Then me the rescuer ditches my gear (controversial I know - it depends on the situation) and can swim us BOTH to the best possible egress as quickly as possible.

My rescue instructors were really really tough. They made me haul very big people up on the beach. They made me think about what would be the best exit point for each site. They made me 'prove' myself so to speak, cause i was very young and small and female and wanted to be an instructor really really very very much. They wanted me to prove that I could give any student in my future classes the best possible chance in the event of an incident.

They taught me ways to use the water to my benefit, when to float the person, exactly how deep in the shallows to get even a 250lb + person up on on my back for a carry out of the water. This was before the era of concern for lawsuits if a student hurt themselves trying to carry someone twice their weight out of the water. When I wasn't successful the first time, I did it again, and again.

My feelings: (again, none of this would change the outcome of this particular incident but it's all stuff to think about.

1) get both of you out of gear, buoyant and streamlined, you can actually move MUCH faster and have a better chance of keeping airway clear. I realize that a lot of people like having the kit to hold on to, but it really really causes a lot of drag and slows you down. Practice a doe-si-doe tow... If you are close to shore, cool, drag em in by their manifold or whatever you've been taught, but personally if i had to swim any distance without a scooter to help, I'm gonna get them buoyant and want the least possible drag I can get.

2) find the best possible point of egress and swim (or scooter) to it.

Know what you are up against. I don't think that Cove 2 and the honeybear is a bad place to take newbies. I just think you need to take a min to take in the site before you dive and have a 'plan' in the back of your mind. If the current is flowing towards cove 1 if you surface in between, don't fight it, USE it. Go to cove 1, Get attention and then boogie to the beach. If you are out and the docks are closer, and you can get peoples attention, go to the docks...

go practice with your buddies. Practice tows. Practice rescue carries. Practice getting people up on a dock. Practice getting people up on a boat if you dive mostly off a boat. etc...

[BASSMAN]

Another thought, I've installed a metal belt buckle one my left shoulder strap lower rib area (ala 1960's style). I know it's not kosher with some gear scheme's but if you ever need to get me out of my rig you don't have to cut anything, pop the waist, pop the left buckle, and I'm out. Doesn't matter what configuration I'm wearing (Single, Doubles, CCR) it's simple, cutting web takes time. Maybe it's time that this be considered by some of the more rigid agencies as a potential improvement to the BP/W standard. I've walked to the water with 2-80's and a 40' hanging off that side without any problem.

My $.02

Dave

Just a thought here, I would feel mor comfortable knowing a couple of clicks and I'm out. weather I have to do it on myself or if someone else was doing it for me.

I don't know what Naui teaches, as far as cutting straps away. I was taught to find and unclip straps as needed.
That would be a quick and easy descision. As far as the continuous strap configureation I would think it would be
easy to see that there is no buckles and then I would (personally) be a little confused to know what to do next.
So, thank you for starting this discussion! This has helped me. as we seem to be going to more of the "Techreational" way of gear configuration. I would think there should be a sort of "Techreational" way of thinking also.
A perfect example would be my own configuration:
1.)I have a DUI BC that looks like I am wearing a weight harness but it is actually part of my BC ditchable weight pockets. So no need to cut off a harnees for my weights.
2.) I use a 7 foot hose and necklace configuration.
nothing else is realy a Tech style configureation. But to cut the necklace away would be a good thought so I'm not draging my whole unit by my neck! Also the bolt snap to clip off the 7 foot hose might be useful. not sure about that.
So, with that being said... Is there anyone who would be willing to teach a Techreational class?

Note:
The term Techreational is referenced to a term I read from a prievious post here on a nwdc post by ljjames.
I have no Idea if it is an actual term, but I will google it.

[BASSMAN]

Found this tid bit online...



Scubapro's
KnightHawk and LadyHawk:

These two top of the range models offer every conveivable comfort feature in an extremely streamlined unit. We call them "Techreational" meaning that they can be used for recreational or moderate technical diving.

Hey, I think my DUI BC might be considdered techreational

conveivable?

[Grateful Diver]

Found this tid bit online...



Scubapro's
KnightHawk and LadyHawk:

These two top of the range models offer every conveivable comfort feature in an extremely streamlined unit. We call them "Techreational" meaning that they can be used for recreational or moderate technical diving.

Hey, I think my DUI BC might be considdered techreational

conveivable?

I can see this leading off into a different topic ... let's please respect the NHZ posted in the title of this thread ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[ArcticDiver]

A good thread. It serves more than one good purpose.

One aspect has not been mentioned. Stop,Think, Act.

Other than in a class situation every effective rescue attempt begins with assessing the situation and acting accordingly. The goal should always be clear. Rote response is seldom called for, or is effective.It is useful to discuss the options but the discussion should always be that they are options, not universal answers.

It seems to me that in this case the folks on-scene did their best. This after action discussion is also useful both as a learning tool and decompression for those immediately involved. But the discussion should not be taken in the context of providing "the answer" for all situations.

[BillZ]

Last October I was involved in a diving incident very similar to what happended to Jake. Unfortunately the outcome was the same.

I understand that the intention of this post is to learn from what happened but second guessing the actions of those involved is a bad idea for the rescuers as well as Jakes friends and loved ones. After reading the posts about the incident, Jake had the very best care possible. If I'm ever in a position where I need help I hope that the team involved with my rescue is as qualified and does the exact same thing as Jakes rescuers.

As for incident I was involved in I spend alot of time thinking of what I could have done better and assessing and re-assessing the rescue attempt. I'm not sure what the answer is but it hasn't helped the feeling that I could have done something more.

Here's a thought. We as the NWDC have been successful in changing the rules at Mulilteo State Park, have returned a GPO to it's home at Redondo, and provided financial help to the family of one of our own. We could use the same power to put automated external defibrillator's (AED's) at the popular dive sites and on our local charter boats. I'd be the first to donate to the cause.

Bill

[BASSMAN]

I hope, if I ever have unforseen circumstances, before , during or after a dive, there would be a few good divers/friends such as Doug or Lynne , to help me.
:smt038

And if we can't have a discussion about what we can or can not do better, why are we even talking about it?

I don't think anyone is seconed guessing the actions of those involved with Jakes situation here.

That would be wrong and inconsidderate at many levels.