Argon for warmth?

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:23 am

At UWS Seattle I saw steel HP bottles that were about the size of an AL14 but held something like 30cu' of gas... any thought here? It'd allow you to take a few #'s off your belt... right?

cardiver · Post by **cardiver** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:39 am

I saw those hp ponies also. It seems like you would have to compensate for the added weight on the other side of your body so you're trim wasn't off.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:05 am

Yeah, I thought about that too. It's be interesting to see how much it put you off and whether you could compensate on the other side as well.

I also though of how perfect they'd be if I was doing a quick prop-job on my boat while it was in the water so I wouldn't have to drag a big tank to the shop for a top-off. Course, where do you strap a pony bottle on a back plate? In theory it would work, but I'm not sure how practical it is. I think an HP80 might be a better (and more useful option).

Is trim the draw for the Al bottles (besides price)?

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:57 pm

With most things that you attach to a backplate and/or doubles like stages or argon bottles, its best if they swing around neutral. I.e a 40cf deco bottle goes from -2 to +2. An AL80 stage is about -3 to +3 with a reg attached.

This makes adding or subtracting stuff from your kit easier IMO. In the above examples it allows you to ditch cylinders without a drastic change in weighting too.

If you apply the same concept to an argon bottle, the ALs are better.
No side to side weighting issues, no sudden change in buoyancy if you need to ditch it, oh and they are cheaper and operate at a lower pressure. Those steel ponys are 31?? psi I think.

I bet the steels would work but there's a pretty limited benefit.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:46 pm

Those are great points... I'm continuing to listen. Is this what was discussed earlier about having a non-metal attachement of the argon bottle to the pack plate? The ability to cut it off to ditch it?

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:15 pm

Yup, you never know. There's no real plus to having a metal to metal connection IMO. While they may be more secure, if one where to lossen its not like you'd have a wrench underwater to tighten it. They will cause some minor corrosion under the band.

With a webbing/cord connection: 1) if something comes loose you can retie the cord, 2) you could ditch it if the bottle was entangled in fishing gear or something too big to cut free 3) inexpensive and easy to replace.

I bet you can use a steel cylinder for argon, but I'd rather put my money towards more fun toys.

Here are the bouyancy specs:
brand, cf, psi, dia, length, empty weight, empty bouyancy, full bouyancy
Luxfer, 6, 3000, 3.21, 10.87, 2.72, -1.03, -1.49
Worthington, 13, 3130+10%, 4.0, 12.5, 6.9, -2.3 -3.3

http://www.techdivinglimited.com/pub/tanks.html

Almost 4 lbs heavier out of the water than an AL6, and you get to ditch a whopping 1.3 lbs from your belt. Or 1.6 lbs off your belt compared to a AL13. And you need a ~3400 psi argon fill.

Why bother?

I have both AL6 and AL13s and I vastly prefer the 6cf cylinders. I'll bring the 13s on a long trip to BC, but even then I end up transfilling into the 6cf tanks a couple times to procrastinate switching the mounting straps all around. I use the Halcyon 13cf straps, they work ok. But when you're diving a single a 13cf argon bottle really is rediculous IMO.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:38 pm

Excellent points... sounds like a 6cu argon bottle is the way to go. I didn't realize the minimal gain for the extra hassle and expense. Thank you.

Zen Diver v1 · Post by **Zen Diver v1** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:28 pm

Sounder wrote:Thanks Valerie - how do you rig your 16cu' argon bottle? That seems like a large bottle, but it also sounds helpful to have so much. Do you fill & dump before the dive too as Lamont does? Does that large of a bottle throw off your trim? Thanks.

I use a Quick Draw attachment for my argon bottle, and no, it doesn't throw my trim off because I have a pony bottle on the other side. If I'm not using one cylinder or the other (for whatever reasons) I add ~3 pounds to counterweight. Never been a problem for me.

-Valerie

Diver_C · Post by **Diver_C** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:07 pm

By the way, my argon bottle, an aluminum 14/2150, may have ss compression bands, but the bands have a rubber cover, so its not ss on al. I could not unscrew the connecting d-rings without taking off my backplate, but I am not worried about that. My argon bottle is between me and my wing, right next to me, not on my back. If I am ever in a situation where it is causing me to tangled/caught up by it, I'd be willing to bet that I have a lot more problems than just that particular entanglement. I'd also be extremely surprised if I could not cut whatever is caught up in it. I think the very same concern could be raised about light canisters, but generally isn't. Sure the hip belt could be cut, but probably not a good idea. There is no metal to metal contact with the TDL system. I have no concerns about its mounting system.

I originally bought and compared the Dive-Rite argon webbing system to what TDL sent me. I sent the Dive-Rite webbing back. The TDL system seemed much more secure, and reliable connection than the Dive-Rite. The compression bands are in the same place every time, and there is no water stretch with ss. But, of course, this is what works for me.

There are a lot of variations in diving of what works out there. What works for you and/or your wife, both physically and psychologically, is the most important thing in the end. I'm sure your wife will be happy with whatever you get for her. Good luck.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:02 am

You're correct - the wife will be happy as long as she's warm. She won't care if that warmth come from the an argon bottle or a campfire so long as she's warm. I like the TDL rig, but also like the other systems I've read about and seen too.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:19 pm

This thread and diving with an argon bottle on Wednesday is directly responsible for ~1.5 scuba units being transferred from myself to Matt at NWSD . . .

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:06 pm

Yeah... I'm headed down that road too. It's either an argon rig or she'll have to start eating McDonalds twice a day... I'll spring for the argon bottle! The trouble is I'll probably end up getting myself one too, but then I can't use the "my extra insulation keeps me warm while diving" excuse anymore.

Aquanautchuck · Post by **Aquanautchuck** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:29 pm

My OPV just came in the mail today. But no surprise, no directions. Now if I understand it correctly the OPV is designed to blow if the IP gets too high on the LP ports. Do I install it on a different LP port than the LP hose to my dry suit or does it go between the LP port and the LP hose to the dry suit. Reason I ask it appears to have a Allen head nut on the top.

Thanks for the help.

Charles

And thanks Bob for the link for a OPV.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:38 pm

Install it on a different LP port. My guess, and I haven't taken mine apart, is that the hex nut on the top of it is to allow changing of the burst mechanism should it blow . . .

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:16 pm

The allen wrench loosens/tightens a spring which holds the ~135 psi of IP in.

I've never had one bubble when it shouldn't, but I have heard of one which did not vent when it was supposed to. Fortunately the hose didn't blow, but I think the ascent was a bit rough.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, just pop it in a unused LP port and you're good to go.

I use a port facing "up" so the OPV doesn't get gunk in it while gearing up.

Aquanautchuck · Post by **Aquanautchuck** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:34 pm

Its in now. Now I am safe.

I had been diving 2 years without one

just forgot to get one.

Charles

Jeff Kruse · Post by **Jeff Kruse** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:53 am

The OVP that didn't work was Wisharts. He would have a hell of a time connecting the LP hose to his dry suit. I told him it shouldn't be that way. He gave me his argon reg to look at. I hooked it up to my IP gauge and turned on the gas and my IP gauge blew out. It totally wrecked my IP gauge. Then I hooked up a HP gauge to the LP port and found that once the supply tank pressure got above 500psi the IP would rise to the tank pressure. Wishart just needs to be thankful that the argon tank he was using was not full!

RSdancey · Post by **RSdancey** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:44 pm

Sounder wrote:Ok, back to Argon - how much warmer are you?

Let's be clear about what's happening with the agon. Argon is not exothermic - it does not warm up when it expands (i.e. comes out of the bottle into your suit). Filling your suit with argon will not make the air temp in your suit any warmer than it is when you fill it with air. So your "max temp" won't change - at your warmest point in the dive, you'll be just as warm with argon or air.

Argon does have the capacity of retaining heat better than air - which means that it will get colder slower. In practice, this effect is very minor, except on long dives in very cold water. Also, if you find yourself inflating your suit often, you get no warmth advantage, because the argon you're putting in the suit is no warmer than the air you'd be putting in your suit.

Where the advantage is very noticable is when you're diving with a helium mixture. Helium is a "cold" gas - it loses heat very quickly. Breathing it, and putting it into your suit will result in a lot of heat from your body being transferred to the surrounding water at a rapid pace. Using Argon in your drysuit maximizes your heat retention (vs. a bottle full of air), and since you're probably using a helium mix because you expect to be either diving deep or diving long, that advantage is likely to be meaningful in terms of the comfort level you experience at the end of the dive during deco.

Ryan

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:57 pm

You really don't lose heat any faster or slower breathing helium mixes. You're major loss of heat in your lungs comes from the evaporation of moisture from your wet lung tissues to the ~20% humidity air - bringing it up to 100% RH in your exhaled breath.

Ryan how many dives do you have in a drysuit? How many using argon?

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:19 am

I understand that - I guess a better question would have been "how much longer are you warm with argon?"

Mrs. Sounder will probably never use helium, I may eventually... btu not for a while. She gets cold easy though so I wanted to explore the argon option.

For now, I think she's going to start with her back gas in her suit (air or nitrox) and see how she does. She'll only be doing 30-45 minute dives (60 minutes tops) as she'll only be taking a 100 with her. Then she'll be out of the water warming up between dives. If she gets cold in the water, then we'll try the argon route.

I learned a lot here though, and really appreciate everyone's help!

Zen Diver v1 · Post by **Zen Diver v1** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:37 am

I dive argon all the time and find it to be a profound difference from air in my suit. In winter I can last up to an hour, but I'm not wanting to get out of the water at 30 minutes like I am if diving air in my suit. Like the difference between standing in front of a window on a cool fall morning, and standing near a space heater instead. Don't know if it's placebo or not, and it really doesn't matter, if it works, it works.

I love it and find it to be well worthwhile.

And, oh yeah, I don't dive trimix often either.

-Valerie

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:42 am

Last night I did a 54 minute dive to the I-beams, about 90 feet or so. I was using argon, and I seemed to feel warmer at the end of the dive than I did when I did the same dive on a single rig with air as inflation gas.

And, just for the record (Bob is likely to point this out) I felt warmer BEFORE I had to fin around in circles to stay down on my stops because I forgot to put the v-weight on the doubles I was using (can you say 5 pounds light? Sheesh).

I was plenty warm after that bit of exercise was over.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:57 am

Thanks - this is really helpful.

I think Mrs. Sounder wants to start with air and get used to diving her dry suit. The dives will be short as I expect she'll be filling and dumping quite a bit... then I'm sure she'll want to try the argon. She gets cold easily so if there's something I can do to keep my dive buddy, I'll do it!

Last night she was sitting on the couch, cuddled under a blanket, with a fire going, and was shivering at the thought of diving this weekend (she got miserably cold during her OW)... I reassured her a few times that diving in her drysuit will be nothing like her wetsuit.

Something tells me argon IS in her future (probably mine too).

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:20 am

dsteding wrote:Last night I did a 54 minute dive to the I-beams, about 90 feet or so. I was using argon, and I seemed to feel warmer at the end of the dive than I did when I did the same dive on a single rig with air as inflation gas.

And, just for the record (Bob is likely to point this out) I felt warmer BEFORE I had to fin around in circles to stay down on my stops because I forgot to put the v-weight on the doubles I was using (can you say 5 pounds light? Sheesh).

I was plenty warm after that bit of exercise was over.

If you swim over to the rubble piles in cove 2 you can pick up a brick or two to help keep you down... hanging onto the boundary cable also can work, but you'll tend to go upside-down... =)

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 9:34 am

Here's a good (technical) explanation of argon.
http://www.decompression.org/maiken/Why_Argon.htm

I'm a believer. Its not an enormous difference, but significant esp as the SI temps are lower and its harder to get hot in between dives.

There are some who dispute this and they have 1 published study they point to:
Thermal insulation properties of argon used as a dry suit inflation gas
J Risberg; A Hope
Undersea & Hyperbaric Medicine; Fall 2001

I beleive the physics and my own practical experiences of hundreds of dives over the experience of the Norwegian Navy with "wooly bear" undergarments and neoprene drysuits.

I have the article as a pdf.