Open Water training standards-split from "fatality at Sund Rock"

[Joshua Smith]

As a general rule, it seems that a more a person puts into their training/education, the more they get out of it. This seems to be relatively constant no matter the instructor, agency, or even sport.

Some people just want to blow bubbles and say they're a scuba diver. Other people want to learn, expand their knowledge, and become a Scuba Diver.

That's really good.

Just because I dive open circuit doesn't mean I'm a complete idiot.

Probably means you're smarter than me. Of course, I DID get a pretty cool patch with my Meg. Which I sewed on to a really nice hoodie. You got one of those, Einstein?

Yeah.


Didn't think so.

[Sounder]

As a general rule, it seems that a more a person puts into their training/education, the more they get out of it. This seems to be relatively constant no matter the instructor, agency, or even sport.

Some people just want to blow bubbles and say they're a scuba diver. Other people want to learn, expand their knowledge, and become a Scuba Diver.

That's really good.

Just because I dive open circuit doesn't mean I'm a complete idiot.

Probably means you're smarter than me. Of course, I DID get a pretty cool patch with my Meg. Which I sewed on to a really nice hoodie. You got one of those, Einstein?

Yeah.


Didn't think so.

Was it a WKPP patch?

[Raydar]

Probably means you're smarter than me. Of course, I DID get a pretty cool patch with my Meg. Which I sewed on to a really nice hoodie. You got one of those, Einstein?

Yeah.


Didn't think so.

I never get to play with any of the cool toys.

[Matt S.]

As a general rule, it seems that a more a person puts into their training/education, the more they get out of it. This seems to be relatively constant no matter the instructor, agency, or even sport.

That is what I came here to say.

As with so many other things, you get from scuba what you put in to scuba. The agencies may turn out some bad divers, but each new diver has the chance to realize that their education has gaps and to try to fix that. Unfortunately, not everyone is wise enough to have those moments of realization, and to ask questions.

Not everyone should be a diver. We can't put that into a test though, so we just have to try our best to get people to think. (And even people who do know better can still make mistakes. We're only human.)

It was apparent to me in my PADI OW that some really important information was being left out. I am a motivated student, and I took the idea of being under water deadly seriously. I believe I took Bob's gas management class before I even finished my PADI OW cert, because I saw that the PADI materials did not cover that adequately. I was astonished about that then as now.

I have put a lot of effort into becoming a better diver and I know that my efforts, while probably far above average, still pale compared to many others on this board. Hopefully, I will continue to learn something new every time I dive with someone who is better than I am, and hopefully neither I nor any of my buddies will become a statistic.

[Grateful Diver]

I believe I took Bob's gas management class before I even finished my PADI OW cert, because I saw that the PADI materials did not cover that adequately. I was astonished about that then as now.

Yes, I remember that ... I offered the class at the Federal Way UWS a coupla times and had people in there both times who were in the process of getting OW certified ... astonishingly, it didn't seem to overwhelm them in the least.

I think there were couple OW students in the TLSea presentation as well.

Those are both PADI shops that didn't seem to have any issues exposing their students to this material ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Raydar]

Those are both PADI shops that didn't seem to have any issues exposing their students to this material ...

Just because I'm the troublemaking sort that has to ask these questions, how come the shops weren't teaching the material themselves rather than bringing in an outsider?

[Grateful Diver]

Those are both PADI shops that didn't seem to have any issues exposing their students to this material ...

Just because I'm the troublemaking sort that has to ask these questions, how come the shops weren't teaching the material themselves rather than bringing in an outsider?

Ummm ... I dunno. But give them credit for inviting me in to talk about it. Lots of shops in our area won't do that because they think it's too "technical" for recreational divers to handle ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Raydar]

Ummm ... I dunno. But give them credit for inviting me in to talk about it. Lots of shops in our area won't do that because they think it's too "technical" for recreational divers to handle ...

Excellent point. Shops that actually go above and beyond do deserve recognition.

[Burntchef]

Being "for profit" means you do everything you can to make the most money you can, while staying within the law and limiting your liability to an acceptable level. PADI does this beautifully - Brian nailed it.

as well as naui, gue, utd, ssi, and any other training agency.

[Sounder]

Being "for profit" means you do everything you can to make the most money you can, while staying within the law and limiting your liability to an acceptable level. PADI does this beautifully - Brian nailed it.

as well as naui, gue, utd, ssi, and any other training agency.

Yeah, I just think there is a different approach taken by PADI that, personally, I don't agree with. I'm all for everyone making as much money as they can, but when you're forbidding the teaching of a subject that clearly has the potential to save lives, I have a problem with it. Requiring it, maybe - it's arguable... but forbidding it because your target demographic doesn't want to be bothered with it or because your target demographic can't "handle it?" I have a problem with that.

This isn't oil painting, this is diving.

[spearcatcher]

I am a new diver, 18 dives and climbing, NAUI certified. In my OW dive I had an issue that I figured later was partially equipment and partially my head. My instructor made me go and spend hundreds of dollars and several months getting test to make sure I didn't have pulmonary issues. Months later I got my cert and am still learning about all the issues involved in this sport, but this I do always is check my guages OFTEN. I am constantly grabbing that lifeline and looking at both air left and time left per computer readout. I realize that I have a limited amount of time and am constantly checking no matter how interested in the sightseeing that is going on. Possibly this unfortunate pair didn't perform a good buddycheck, if they had he might have been more able to dump her weight?

[Bric Martin]

This recent incident sounds similar to others over the years. I have always wondered how much "Cold Water" plays into an incident like this.

Has there ever been talk by any of the agencies of changing the standards for cold vs warm water divers?

[ljjames]

Okay, here is something I gotta say.

Standard equipment on a recreational scuba divers rig is a pressure gauge.

we hammer hammer hammer in 'look at your gauge'.

ALL agencies that i've been able to find DO mention methods of gas management.

1) watching your gauge so that you have a good idea of where your pressure is at all times

2) figuring 'turn' pressure

and

2) learning to calculate your SAC etc...

BUT!!!!

CALCULATING YOUR SAC, and "knowing" where you pressure should be at any given time is NOT a replacement for an SPG.

If it were, why are we all buying them still for our tanks?!

If GAS MANAGEMENT courses were far superior to just looking at your gauge at regular intervals, perhaps it would have become more mainstream.

not looking at your gauge is not going to be cured by another class, it is going to be cured by a mindset of "as much as I love diving I don't really belong here cause I can't live without my life support equipment, I might as well be in outer space"

Openwater ONE is an entry level class, instructors are hard pressed to teach what they already teach with the shops pushing them to do it in less and less time. Students want to dedicate less and less time to the process of becoming certified.

Diving incidents generally happen in the recreational world when people dive once a quarter or less, never get any follow up cert, or are dragged along on a dive outside their comfort/expertise by an only slightly more experience buddy

In skydiving you are REQUIRED to jump at least once every 30 days to maintain your license. if not, you have to be checked out again.

Is it really inconceivable that diving should be any different?

in addition:

Every PADI instructor i've talked to does indeed teach some kind of gas management in their open water class.

here is an example, directly quoted with her permission... (she teaches at a warm water destination, and certifies a shitload of students)

here's what I tell my students...
the "book" says be back on the boat with 500psi
so, if we're planning a 60 minute dive, what do we need to take into consideration?
"time" <-- yes, very good, what else?
"comfort" <-- also something that is imperative to account for
"gas"... "great, when do we turn on gas?"

Then the discussion moves into 'how we figure out when to turn'.

my discussion of 'turn pressure' always revolves around "what ifs?"
"what if your buddy gos OOG *at* YOUR turn pressure?"
"what if you run into a changing tide pattern *at* turn pressure?
how do you make up for that?
how do you account for it?
how do you PLAN for that?

but it's not the math thing with calculating sac rates and dissimilar tank volumes and that stuff... BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO!!! that's the thing, just make people think about it! if they are thinking about it ahead, planning a 'turn pressure' and 'what ifs' and watch their gauges...

every time I hear someone say "we turn at 1/2 tank" I ask how they are going to get themselves and a buddy back to the boat with their own half tank and they all pause, and I let them ponder... every single one of them comes up with 1/3's all on their own if I let them

------

This may not be a full on gas management with SAC calcs, tank matching etc... but it IS rudimentary gas management.

At some point the DIVERS themselves have to be responsible for their actions. it is NOT only up to us, we have a limited time to impart some very critical information. I've looked at a half dozen openwater books since this discussion started and they ALL cover basic air management skills that IF YOU FOLLOW will get you "back to the boat" just fine.


-----

with regard to the cold vs. warm water...

Cold water and being cold sucks up some of the 'attention' pizza (a term from motorcycle training). BUT, an awful lot of divers have been diving in cold water for a loong looong time and done just fine.

Craig at Silent World decided a long time ago that students learned more from their openwater dives if they were not freezing. He felt so strongly about this that he puts openwater students in drysuits, knowing full well that it's gonna add to instructors plate, and cost to the shop.

some instructors (including myself) over the years have taught a "northwest" diver course, openwater one and two combined, wearing drysuits. Agencies don't see cold water divers as more than a blip on the map, we just don't have enough people certifying here compared to the oooodles and oodles of people getting certified on vaca in warm water. They just don't see the money in it.

-------

Something else that has not been mentioned.

On a completely empty tank, if a diver is so heavy that they cannot kick a bit and remain on the surface, and are so heavy that a buddy cannot hold on to them, then they are grossly overweighted. Period.

----

okay, stepping down from soap box... sorry about the tirade, but it's all stuff we need to think about... We have discussions that go on and on about how people (diving doubles in DIR style) don't have to look at their gauges and if "the others" run low on gas it's an education problem, the instructors fault, the agencies fault, and a gas management course will cure the problem. I agree it will help, but it won't cure the underlying problem 100% of the time.

[Grateful Diver]

Yeah, I just think there is a different approach taken by PADI that, personally, I don't agree with. I'm all for everyone making as much money as they can, but when you're forbidding the teaching of a subject that clearly has the potential to save lives, I have a problem with it. Requiring it, maybe - it's arguable... but forbidding it because your target demographic doesn't want to be bothered with it or because your target demographic can't "handle it?" I have a problem with that.

I'd have a problem with it too ... if that were indeed the case. But having worked with some PADI instructors, I don't believe it is.

This recent incident sounds similar to others over the years. I have always wondered how much "Cold Water" plays into an incident like this.

Has there ever been talk by any of the agencies of changing the standards for cold vs warm water divers?

Cold water plays into it a great deal ... not because of the water temperature, but because of what all that gear, weight, and limited visibility do to your awareness. People get task-loaded and "forget" some pretty important things sometimes.

All the mainstream agencies cater to the largest target demographic ... which happens to be the vacation diver. Those people aren't like the ones who are in here reading this board ... they don't live and breathe diving. Diving's an afterthought for them ... something they do once or twice a year on vacation. They have divemasters to plan their dives and make sure they don't get into trouble.

We don't DO divemasters here ... at least not the kind that are going to give you depth and time limits and take you to the surface if you run low on air. We HAVE to be more self-sufficient coming right out of the gate ... because almost everybody gets their shiny new C-card and heads off to BHUT or Redondo or Seacrest Park with their equally-new dive buddy.

Let's PLEASE knock it off already with the PADI-bashing ... this isn't endemic of one specific agency. NAUI doesn't teach anything significantly different than PADI when it comes to gas management ... because they're targeting the same demographic and have the same liability concerns. That's why I wrote my own.

Laura said it well ... it's the mindset that matters. You don't need to teach calculations at the OW level ... you have to get them thinking about what to do, and understanding why it's important ... that'll get them into the habit of DOING the things that were covered in the class. Perhaps the most significant thing an instructor can do at the OW level is give his or her students some clues about what they don't know ... and provide them a path for acquiring that knowledge once they develop the basic skills covered in their OW class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BDub]

Let's PLEASE knock it off already with the PADI-bashing ... this isn't endemic of one specific agency. NAUI doesn't teach anything significantly different than PADI when it comes to gas management ... because they're targeting the same demographic and have the same liability concerns. That's why I wrote my own.

Bob, I don't see PADI bashing going on here.

PADI does a great job targeting the vacation diver. There are GREAT PADI instructors and some of them do a fabulous job wiggling around the standards to provide better education.

However, I do have to point out that even though NAUI doesn't teach anything significantly different than PADI in regards to gas management, the very reason you are able to give your gas management workshops at PADI facilities is due to the fact that NAUI allows you to do it.

NAUI's Advanced curriculum isn't much different than PADI's. However, you and I were allowed to construct our own curriculums to pretty much whatever we wanted to teach, as long as the minimums were met.

So, in this case (PADI and NAUI), even though they don't teach anything significantly different, fundamentally they're much different in what they allow their instructors to teach. Something you and I have been able to enjoy to a great extent.

[ljjames]

Yup... thats why i chose NAUI way back when, and chose to stay with it even though I see the current curriculum as watered down.

Here is another direct quote from my friend (a very good PADI instructor)

"be sure to say that PADI does not force instructors to not teach additional material but we are not allowed to withhold certification of someone doesn't get it"

[Zen Diver]

I was just going to say the same thing. Good posts Bob and Laura.

-Valerie
(PADI Instructor)

[airsix]

...but we are not allowed to withhold certification of someone doesn't get it"

That's disappointing.
Certified = endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements.
How can you be "certified" without meeting the requirements?
In that case it's not a certification card, it's a certificate of attendance.

-Ben

[BillZ]

First off, this is a great discussion that I hope leads to some changes in the way OW instructors approach gas management.

In my open water class we spent alot of time getting drilled on dive tables and planning repetitive dives etc.. It was covered extensively in the book and there were 8 questions on the final exam about tables. After the class getting bent really scared the crap out of me. On the other hand, although our instructor did a good job of covering the basic rules of managing our air supply, there was little in the book and I can't remember one question on the test about the subject.

My point is that if you can teach and test a student on how to work dive tables (that are rarely used once the new diver gets a computer) I just don't see why OW students can't learn in basic terms how to figure out rock bottom and plan their gas supply for a dive.

[Nwbrewer]

...but we are not allowed to withhold certification of someone doesn't get it"

That's disappointing.
Certified = endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements.
How can you be "certified" without meeting the requirements?
In that case it's not a certification card, it's a certificate of attendance.

-Ben

I think she meant that "advanced" subjects can be introduced, but P/F can only be based on the students ability to meet the agency Req., not the "advanced" subjects.

[Joshua Smith]

Yet another great post. Thank you. This thread keeps surprising me. I did not have high expectations for it.

Okay, here is something I gotta say.

Standard equipment on a recreational scuba divers rig is a pressure gauge.

we hammer hammer hammer in 'look at your gauge'.

ALL agencies that i've been able to find DO mention methods of gas management.

1) watching your gauge so that you have a good idea of where your pressure is at all times

2) figuring 'turn' pressure

and

2) learning to calculate your SAC etc...

BUT!!!!

CALCULATING YOUR SAC, and "knowing" where you pressure should be at any given time is NOT a replacement for an SPG.

If it were, why are we all buying them still for our tanks?!

If GAS MANAGEMENT courses were far superior to just looking at your gauge at regular intervals, perhaps it would have become more mainstream.

not looking at your gauge is not going to be cured by another class, it is going to be cured by a mindset of "as much as I love diving I don't really belong here cause I can't live without my life support equipment, I might as well be in outer space"

Openwater ONE is an entry level class, instructors are hard pressed to teach what they already teach with the shops pushing them to do it in less and less time. Students want to dedicate less and less time to the process of becoming certified.

Diving incidents generally happen in the recreational world when people dive once a quarter or less, never get any follow up cert, or are dragged along on a dive outside their comfort/expertise by an only slightly more experience buddy

In skydiving you are REQUIRED to jump at least once every 30 days to maintain your license. if not, you have to be checked out again.

Is it really inconceivable that diving should be any different?

in addition:

Every PADI instructor i've talked to does indeed teach some kind of gas management in their open water class.

here is an example, directly quoted with her permission... (she teaches at a warm water destination, and certifies a shitload of students)

here's what I tell my students...
the "book" says be back on the boat with 500psi
so, if we're planning a 60 minute dive, what do we need to take into consideration?
"time" <-- yes, very good, what else?
"comfort" <-- also something that is imperative to account for
"gas"... "great, when do we turn on gas?"

Then the discussion moves into 'how we figure out when to turn'.

my discussion of 'turn pressure' always revolves around "what ifs?"
"what if your buddy gos OOG *at* YOUR turn pressure?"
"what if you run into a changing tide pattern *at* turn pressure?
how do you make up for that?
how do you account for it?
how do you PLAN for that?

but it's not the math thing with calculating sac rates and dissimilar tank volumes and that stuff... BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO!!! that's the thing, just make people think about it! if they are thinking about it ahead, planning a 'turn pressure' and 'what ifs' and watch their gauges...

every time I hear someone say "we turn at 1/2 tank" I ask how they are going to get themselves and a buddy back to the boat with their own half tank and they all pause, and I let them ponder... every single one of them comes up with 1/3's all on their own if I let them

------

This may not be a full on gas management with SAC calcs, tank matching etc... but it IS rudimentary gas management.

At some point the DIVERS themselves have to be responsible for their actions. it is NOT only up to us, we have a limited time to impart some very critical information. I've looked at a half dozen openwater books since this discussion started and they ALL cover basic air management skills that IF YOU FOLLOW will get you "back to the boat" just fine.


-----

with regard to the cold vs. warm water...

Cold water and being cold sucks up some of the 'attention' pizza (a term from motorcycle training). BUT, an awful lot of divers have been diving in cold water for a loong looong time and done just fine.

Craig at Silent World decided a long time ago that students learned more from their openwater dives if they were not freezing. He felt so strongly about this that he puts openwater students in drysuits, knowing full well that it's gonna add to instructors plate, and cost to the shop.

some instructors (including myself) over the years have taught a "northwest" diver course, openwater one and two combined, wearing drysuits. Agencies don't see cold water divers as more than a blip on the map, we just don't have enough people certifying here compared to the oooodles and oodles of people getting certified on vaca in warm water. They just don't see the money in it.

-------

Something else that has not been mentioned.

On a completely empty tank, if a diver is so heavy that they cannot kick a bit and remain on the surface, and are so heavy that a buddy cannot hold on to them, then they are grossly overweighted. Period.

----

okay, stepping down from soap box... sorry about the tirade, but it's all stuff we need to think about... We have discussions that go on and on about how people (diving doubles in DIR style) don't have to look at their gauges and if "the others" run low on gas it's an education problem, the instructors fault, the agencies fault, and a gas management course will cure the problem. I agree it will help, but it won't cure the underlying problem 100% of the time.

[BDub]

...but we are not allowed to withhold certification of someone doesn't get it"

That's disappointing.
Certified = endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements.
How can you be "certified" without meeting the requirements?
In that case it's not a certification card, it's a certificate of attendance.

-Ben

"be sure to say that PADI does not force instructors to not teach additional material but we are not allowed to withhold certification of someone doesn't get it"

Ben, I believe she's saying PADI Instructors can teach additional material, but if the student doesn't understand that additional material the instructor cannot withhold certification.

I was not aware of this. Can one of the local PADI instructors verify this?

[Zen Diver]

[Ben, I believe she's saying PADI Instructors can teach additional material, but if the student doesn't understand that additional material the instructor cannot withhold certification.

I was not aware of this. Can one of the local PADI instructors verify this?

Yes, it's true.

-Valerie

[Joshua Smith]

[Ben, I believe she's saying PADI Instructors can teach additional material, but if the student doesn't understand that additional material the instructor cannot withhold certification.

I was not aware of this. Can one of the local PADI instructors verify this?

Yes, it's true.

-Valerie

Which, I think, means that if someone you know is claiming that his IT has forbidden him to teach a particular subject, that you should draw your own conclusions.

[LCF]

Peter asked me to post and revise my original statement. He CAN teach gas management. What he is not allowed to teach is SAC rates to OW students. He CAN teach about how gas disappears faster at depth, and he can ask the students to tell him, if a tank lasts an hour on the surface, how long it will last at 100 feet. He just can't make them figure out how long it will last THEM at 100 feet.

I didn't intend to agency bash. And it is certainly true that, no matter what people are taught, if they don't follow the guidelines they were given, the instructor and the agency are not responsible for that. But I still think -- and this is my personal opinion, to which I am entitled -- that too much time is spent on DCS, and not enough time on gas planning. Most DCS from recreational dives is survivable (gas embolism excepted) but running out of gas is a contributory factor to a lot of fatalities, according to the DAN data. Some of the instructors here have talked about things they do with their classes to encourage frequent gauge checking, and those are great ideas. But I still think that talking about planning gas on the surface, before your head goes underwater, and the viz and the cold and the critters and your buddy begin to overwhelm your bandwidth, is worth while.