Recreational Rebreather

[Grateful Diver]

Why would the training be any different for this rebreather than it is for the ones currently on the market?

Because you're training a diver with far less skill, experience, and motivation (as a generality).

Completely different audience and mindset. Typical rebreather training today runs well over a thousand dollars. Sometimes two or three thousand. How many recreational divers do you know who would put out that kind of coin for a training class?

People like to complain today about poor scuba training and low standards. But the market is driven by what people want to buy. The typical recreational diver doesn't dive as you and I do, Ron ... in general the northwest recreational diver isn't typical of recreational divers worldwide. And the occasional vacation diver is by far the largest percentage of divers. That's the pool that the training will target ... just as it does today with OC equipment. The state of scuba training is driven by what people want to buy. That won't ... by any stretch ... resemble what you currently see for rebreather training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Joshua Smith]

I started this thread because I saw an article on Scubaboard about this product. I didn't mean to start a pissing match between our "tech" divers and our "recreation" divers.
I have typed and deleted four of my post because of the elitist attitude taken by some of the divers on this board. I'm offended that you think that a lowly, open circuit diver could not fathom the complexities of a rebreather as you have.
Here's what I think. I think that most "tech" rebreather divers enjoy being in a elite group and they don't want that group to expand and include us diver who are happy staying in the 130' range and doing our thing......

Ron, I really hope you didn't read that into anything I wrote. That was NOT the point I was trying to make.

[spatman]

what's the retail cost of this unit going to be?

[cardiver]

I started this thread because I saw an article on Scubaboard about this product. I didn't mean to start a pissing match between our "tech" divers and our "recreation" divers.
I have typed and deleted four of my post because of the elitist attitude taken by some of the divers on this board. I'm offended that you think that a lowly, open circuit diver could not fathom the complexities of a rebreather as you have.
Here's what I think. I think that most "tech" rebreather divers enjoy being in a elite group and they don't want that group to expand and include us diver who are happy staying in the 130' range and doing our thing......

Ron, I really hope you didn't read that into anything I wrote. That was NOT the point I was trying to make.

I was referring to Raydar and CaptnJack's posts.

[cardiver]

what's the retail cost of this unit going to be?

[CaptnJack]

I was referring to Raydar and CaptnJack's posts.

Funny, neither Ray nor myself dive rebreathers. So I am FAR from a fancy "tech rebreather guy" trying to keep the nifty technology away from the masses. I just find it amazing that people will spend $1000+ for something like an air integrated computer while simultaneously whining about how a good $500 AOW course is money wasted.

And Bob is right, familarity with rebreathers (just like has happened with most everything else) has led to increasing dumbing down. Recreational rebreathers are gas mixing machines like any other rebreather. Yet they are marketed to people (worldwide not anyone here specifically) who couldn't mix up a tank of OC nitrox accurately if their life depended on it. Go figure.

[Joshua Smith]

I started this thread because I saw an article on Scubaboard about this product. I didn't mean to start a pissing match between our "tech" divers and our "recreation" divers.
I have typed and deleted four of my post because of the elitist attitude taken by some of the divers on this board. I'm offended that you think that a lowly, open circuit diver could not fathom the complexities of a rebreather as you have.
Here's what I think. I think that most "tech" rebreather divers enjoy being in a elite group and they don't want that group to expand and include us diver who are happy staying in the 130' range and doing our thing......

Ron, I really hope you didn't read that into anything I wrote. That was NOT the point I was trying to make.

I was referring to Raydar and CaptnJack's posts.

They're not rebreather divers.....

[cardiver]

I started this thread because I saw an article on Scubaboard about this product. I didn't mean to start a pissing match between our "tech" divers and our "recreation" divers.
I have typed and deleted four of my post because of the elitist attitude taken by some of the divers on this board. I'm offended that you think that a lowly, open circuit diver could not fathom the complexities of a rebreather as you have.
Here's what I think. I think that most "tech" rebreather divers enjoy being in a elite group and they don't want that group to expand and include us diver who are happy staying in the 130' range and doing our thing......

Ron, I really hope you didn't read that into anything I wrote. That was NOT the point I was trying to make.

I was referring to Raydar and CaptnJack's posts.

They're not rebreather divers.....

That makes it even worse! WTF would you make comments like that when you don't even know what you're talking about?

[Joshua Smith]

I started this thread because I saw an article on Scubaboard about this product. I didn't mean to start a pissing match between our "tech" divers and our "recreation" divers.
I have typed and deleted four of my post because of the elitist attitude taken by some of the divers on this board. I'm offended that you think that a lowly, open circuit diver could not fathom the complexities of a rebreather as you have.
Here's what I think. I think that most "tech" rebreather divers enjoy being in a elite group and they don't want that group to expand and include us diver who are happy staying in the 130' range and doing our thing......

Ron, I really hope you didn't read that into anything I wrote. That was NOT the point I was trying to make.

I was referring to Raydar and CaptnJack's posts.

They're not rebreather divers.....

That makes it even worse! WTF would you make comments like that when you don't even know what you're talking about?

Uh.....well, everyone's entitled to an opinion. Most of the "tech" and ccr divers I know are a bit dubious regarding the mass marketing of "recreational" rebreathers. The MK6 seems to be doing ok....the one guy who died on one went to some pretty extreme lengths to outwit multiple layers of safety warnings.....I really couldn't figure out a way to blame the rebreather in that case.
My own reservations about the idea stem from the fact that there are too many ccr deaths at the technical level, which makes me wonder how safe they can possibly be at the recreational level......

[CaptnJack]

Uh.....well, everyone's entitled to an opinion. Most of the "tech" and ccr divers I know are a bit dubious regarding the mass marketing of "recreational" rebreathers. The MK6 seems to be doing ok....the one guy who died on one went to some pretty extreme lengths to outwit multiple layers of safety warnings.....I really couldn't figure out a way to blame the rebreather in that case.

Yeah he did, he was a genius at being an idiot! I don't blame the MKVI either.

[pensacoladiver]

Give divers a little credit

Why? The majority dive <6 dives a year and can barely get an OC reg on a tank + BC situated.

If you don't believe this is true, come visit me in Ft Lauderdale. You can see for yourself first hand what Richard is talking about on one of our many cattle boats.

[pensacoladiver]

Yet they are marketed to people (worldwide not anyone here specifically) who couldn't mix up a tank of OC nitrox accurately if their life depended on it. Go figure.

Funny, I know someone here who is "very interested" in taking the Advanced Nitrox and Decompression class. He is already Nitrox certified.

One day while we were in Fill Express he actually asked me "how much do you think they pay for those big bottles of Nitrox (refering to the bank bottles) and who delivers them to the store".

[Raydar]

I was referring to Raydar and CaptnJack's posts.

They're not rebreather divers.....

That makes it even worse! WTF would you make comments like that when you don't even know what you're talking about?

I'm sorry that you perceived my comment as elitist. It certainly wasn't intended as such. I've moved past the stage where I care about what, where, and how people dive.

I'll admit that I have a deep and unabiding suspicion of rebreathers. Mostly because I hear of far more experienced divers than I die each and every year on rebreathers. I don't know if it's a case of people pushing limits thinking that rebreathers are miracle machines or something else. Bottomline is, they're dying.

The idea of bringing rebreathers mainstream, considering the average OW diver that we all see and admire, makes me twitch. The added complexity and maintenance, combined with (what appears to be) a higher cost per dive than nitrox and the perception that they are idiot-proof, makes me think that people are going to push these machines past their limits.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, you have to keep in mind the lowest common denominator and not just the 'smart kids'.

And now that I've inadvertantly lit another firestorm, I shall return to my normal lurking status.

[spatman]

what's the retail cost of this unit going to be?

also, who's the target demographic? how many of those PADI 6 dive-a-year divers are going to pay $Xk for the unit and training?

seems like there's a lot of fuss over a product that may not gain any real market traction.

[citycatred]

what's the retail cost of this unit going to be?

also, who's the target demographic? how many of those PADI 6 dive-a-year divers are going to pay $Xk for the unit and training?

seems like there's a lot of fuss over a product that may not gain any real market traction.

I doubt this is going to get any traction except for a small group of people who just have to have the next "big thing". Though I do know a lot of guys who are 6 dives per year and yet still came into my old dive shop and purchased huge camera rigs just because they had the money. Would not be surprised if they ended up with these "rec rebreathers"...

[citycatred]

You guys, the wheel, fire, breathing underwater. All scary and new, people kill themselves everyday over something stupid whether they; drive into someone, burn their house down, drown because they forgot to turn on their tank. Stupidity will never stop existing; but it is natures natural way of selection. (Yes I JUST said that)

*Hands a Darwin Award to Dash*

[Geek]

I's be divering my Rebreather cuz it looks kool

[CaptnJack]

You guys, the wheel, fire, breathing underwater. All scary and new, people kill themselves everyday over something stupid whether they; drive into someone, burn their house down, drown because they forgot to turn on their tank. Stupidity will never stop existing; but it is natures natural way of selection. (Yes I JUST said that)

*Hands a Darwin Award to Dash*

Are you implying he's a cool kid? :luv:

[citycatred]

You guys, the wheel, fire, breathing underwater. All scary and new, people kill themselves everyday over something stupid whether they; drive into someone, burn their house down, drown because they forgot to turn on their tank. Stupidity will never stop existing; but it is natures natural way of selection. (Yes I JUST said that)

*Hands a Darwin Award to Dash*

Are you implying he's a cool kid? :luv:

Truthfully I'm just hoping he gets a Darwin award before I get mine

[Dashrynn]

You guys, the wheel, fire, breathing underwater. All scary and new, people kill themselves everyday over something stupid whether they; drive into someone, burn their house down, drown because they forgot to turn on their tank. Stupidity will never stop existing; but it is natures natural way of selection. (Yes I JUST said that)

*Hands a Darwin Award to Dash*

Are you implying he's a cool kid? :luv:

Truthfully I'm just hoping he gets a Darwin award before I get mine

To be honest, I hope no one I know receives one. Although, I hear this sonia person wants something called a "Dundee Award" which to some, is pretty awesome.

[John Rawlings]

For a photo of the Hollis unit and an "official" description of it, including the MSRP, see this link on RebreatherWorld:

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/general- ... post381370

I'm sure that more information will follow in this link as each day at DEMA passes....

- John

[citycatred]

You guys, the wheel, fire, breathing underwater. All scary and new, people kill themselves everyday over something stupid whether they; drive into someone, burn their house down, drown because they forgot to turn on their tank. Stupidity will never stop existing; but it is natures natural way of selection. (Yes I JUST said that)

*Hands a Darwin Award to Dash*

Are you implying he's a cool kid? :luv:

Truthfully I'm just hoping he gets a Darwin award before I get mine

To be honest, I hope no one I know receives one. Although, I hear this sonia person wants something called a "Dundee Award" which to some, is pretty awesome.

*googles...reads wiki article....Facepalm*

[Raydar]

For a photo of the Hollis unit and an "official" description of it, including the MSRP, see this link on RebreatherWorld:

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/general- ... post381370

I'm sure that more information will follow in this link as each day at DEMA passes....

- John

Thanks for the link.

MSRP of $5500, eh?

I guess my question is going to be "Why purchase this over a KISS or paying a little bit more for a unit that will offer the diver the option for more advanced diving?"

[Joshua Smith]

For a photo of the Hollis unit and an "official" description of it, including the MSRP, see this link on RebreatherWorld:

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/general- ... post381370

I'm sure that more information will follow in this link as each day at DEMA passes....

- John

Thanks for the link.

MSRP of $5500, eh?

I guess my question is going to be "Why purchase this over a KISS or paying a little bit more for a unit that will offer the diver the option for more advanced diving?"

Not sure what a Classic Kiss is going for, these days. Certainly, you could find a used one for that much, or less. Most full on CCRs cost more, though. The point is that PADI and some manufacturers are attempting to create a recreational rebreather market. This niche is for divers who want more bottom time, longer NDLs, and some degree of bubble-less diving; but aren't looking to go to 200+ feet. I'm pretty sure its never really going to be a giant money maker for anyone, but who knows? I never thought I'd spend $5500 on a scooter, either.....

[John Rawlings]

Not certain why the KISS Classic is being cited here - like the COPIS Meg it's a manual CCR designed to allow a diver to do dives between 200 and 250 feet, and deeper if modified to do so. As such, it is not comparable to the newly announced Hollis unit.

The Sport KISS is a unit that is more designed to fit within the "recreational realm". It is rated to 150 FSW and MSRP is $4775.00 (CDN). Here's a link: http://www.kissrebreathers.com/kisssport.html

At the price cited, I really don't see the Hollis design attracting enough divers to be a game changer...let's face it, most folks won't shell out that amount of cash for recreational diving, and if they do have that kind of cash available that they are willing to spend, why not just go for a full-out CCR?

Some folks above have also mentioned the KISS GEM. Bear in mind that the GEM is in reality not a Closed-Circuit Rebreather, and it is not marketed as one. It is a "gas-expander" that, when attached to regular open-circuit equipment (such as an AL 80) will allow the diver to virtually double the amount of gas available during a dive - making 80 cubic feet of gas the equivalent of 160 cubic feet of gas, for example. It thus doesn't really allow you to go deeper, (having the same depth restictions as does Nitrox), but does enable the diver to stay down far longer. Though not my "cup of tea", a week doesn't go by without me hearing about new GEM divers being trained somewhere in the USA, so there is a definite market.

It will be interesting to see what happens, market-wise, with the new Hollis unit. Anything designed by Kevin Gurr is something that needs to be taken seriously.

- John