boydski wrote:
Josh brings up some good points. I've been given the opportunity several times to dive deeper wrecks when no helium was available (Sanfrancisco Maru for example), and having the background of extended range diving does allow you to evaluate your risk from the standpoint of having "been there before".
Okay, admittedly an edge scenario. And, is it directly relevant to take, say, deep air here and translate that to those locations? Plus, do you need to go to 180 to evaluate these risks? I've been to about 120 on 32% locally--briefly--and could feel the narcosis. Richard and I needed to breathe down some tanks the other day, so we went around the boundary line at Cove 2 and I spent ~30 minutes below 100 feet on 25/25. Wow, saw stuff I never noticed before (anyone notice how much wire and crap is down there?). Previously, I'd only been down there on 32%. That is Cove 2--familiar to the point of tedium, and I notice a big difference.
Point being, I think I can effectively evaluate the risks of deep air in Truuk or Bikini without taking a deep air class.
dsteding wrote:I'll ask you, Josh, if you would approach your training the same way given the benefits of hindsight?
Honestly, I wouldn't change a thing- in my tech training. (I got OW/AOW cards I'm not especially proud of, but that's a different topic).
I do feel that the way I went was right for me. It's a little bit like something else I've been thinking about- I may, in the future, purchase an electronic head for my Meg. I firmly believe that learning manual was the right thing to do, but adjusting loop volume and P02 while scootering with stages is a lot of work, and I've started to think about this change. I think learning manual CCR was really a great way for me to start, and I think it will make ME a better electronic CCR diver, ultimately. But most of my dive buddies just learned electronic right out of the gate. Do I think my manual/electronic evolution is going to make me better than them? Of course not- it's just a different path. One that I chose, for me, because I wanted to, and I thought it would make me a better diver.
I just wanted to add that I too have taken the TDI adv nitrox and deco, and I really enjoyed them:_) I have comfort with deep air dives and also LOVE helium. I chose to dive air when its 130< in salt and not much experience in the lake so i would use mix. Diving air to depths is not that difficult if you have done it a few times and can decipher between anxiety and Narc'. My experience with air was good, and of course there were those bad dive too. Really thought there are many divers with those bad dives, or scary what if dives. Trimix is a wonderful tool and should be used when it can be, agree with everyone on that too.
Although I feel strongly that Helium should not be used to make someone comfortable at depth when they would otherwise be uncomfortable breathing a different gas. It just seems to me that using a gas to make yourself comfortable should really mean just dive more. The use of rec mix is just adding complication to an uncomfortable situation anyway, IMO.
I habve followed the route of my OLD SCHOOL FRIENDS :occasion5: and wouldn't change any of my training, great experiences, but thte best have just been going diving. :smt038
Maverick
Diving. . . is an active physical form of meditation. It is so silent- You're like a thought.
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR
ANYTHING, BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE
STAIRS.
This is Tom, still listening, still liking the discussion, still profiting.
This is Tom, thinking I should get off my computer and go do something productive, like fly to the Dominican Republic.
More Pics Than You Have Time To Look AT "Anyone who thinks this place is over moderated is bat-crazy anarchist." -Ben, Airsix "Warning: No dive masters are going to be there, Just a bunch of old fat guys taking pictures of fish." -Bassman
dsteding wrote:
Sounds great, seriously--and you know I respect you as a diver. This stuff always degrades to a personal level. Let's bring it back to the Chatterton post you quoted:
Personally, I think the Extended Range course is not just valuable training but important to diver development.
He seems to be saying to me that extended range is important--perhaps even necessary--to diver development. I disagree, I think that is a bit of an antiquated perspective, and I say that with respect.
I think it's more a matter of how Chatterton looks at diving, in general. If you know anything about the man you know that he's a great believer in "progressive development". You probably wouldn't consider his approach to wreck penetration a very good idea either ... but it works well for him.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix
Guy's, we all have a little bit different points of view. I'm a TDI Adv Nitrox / Deco Procedures / Tri-mix Instructor. Notice I didn't say Extended Range - When I did my Instructor Course I saw no need for my being able to teach it nor did my IT (Mel).
No, I don't advocate deep air but, I'm not afraid of it either. I prefer to start using mix after 130' when diving OC and much beyond 100' on CC (it's cheap on CC).
I haven't taken the time to read the SB post in question nor do I plan to.
I believe the progression of a combined Adv/Eanx/Deco and then Tri-mix makes logical sense if done correctly. With TDI, there is no minimum depth requirement for Adv Nitrox/Deco so I do several dives less than 100' to practice and do drills then we start doing 100' to 130' dives for deco. There isn't any need to go deeper at that level. We'll go deeper on Trimix where we are going to do a couple 150ish dives then 150' - 200' . With a good instructor, and prepared student, this is a logical progression.
With regards to the Extended Range course, I think it's something who's time has probably past and it will eventually fade away but these things take time. Especially when you have other places in the world that think differently than we do. Just read some of the other boards and look at what people are paying for Helium. Sometimes it's in excess of $1000 per bottle. With those prices, deep air doesn't look so bad anymore.
When looking at agency class offerings, I really think we have to move beyond the US and think globally because just because we in the US don't approve of something doesn't mean it's not a standard elsewhere.
I still have customers who refuse to wear a BC and will not think twice about diving an AL 80 on a working dive to 140'.
Dave Mitchell
_______________________________
It's OK to hijack my threads!
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Grateful Diver wrote:
I think it's more a matter of how Chatterton looks at diving, in general. If you know anything about the man you know that he's a great believer in "progressive development". You probably wouldn't consider his approach to wreck penetration a very good idea either ... but it works well for him.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
So, maybe he should say Deep Air was a good part of his development? I'd have no issues there. It just seems that he's such a prominent figure that people will respect what he says without scratching beneath the surface. I'm fine with multiple paths--lots of ways to skin a cat. Really. He was just saying one of the "important" steps on the path to being a technical diver is deep air.
Obviously, many people have deep air experience and value it. Some probably have it and don't recommend it. Some only have tastes of it on the margins, and know they don't need it. A diver considering technical training (which is the way I think the OP was intending this discussion to go) needs to see all those paths. Chatterton was defining one path as the only valid path, sound familiar?
OK - gotta run, but if this thread were to turn south and away from the realm of ideas, this would be the place.
More Pics Than You Have Time To Look AT "Anyone who thinks this place is over moderated is bat-crazy anarchist." -Ben, Airsix "Warning: No dive masters are going to be there, Just a bunch of old fat guys taking pictures of fish." -Bassman
I wonder if this comment comes derives from his history with the Father Son crew that died on the Uboat, because they couldn't afford trimix, and being cave divers (if I remember right), hadn't done deep dives on air, as well as the other divers who had lost their lives on air. It may seem pointless now, because we have the gas, but for how long will we be able to afford the He?
My $0.02 is that it's def preference on this class, as we now have the gas available for trimix, and heliox, but if the diver ever envisions him/herself having to do a deep dive on air, then it would be a good class to take, instead of doing it "in flight".
Grateful Diver wrote:You probably wouldn't consider his approach to wreck penetration a very good idea either ... but it works well for him.
And those ideas recently killed 3 men on the Oriskany.
I beg to differ- those guys weren't doing it the way JC does it, as far as I can tell.
True. Mostly they thought they were doing "progressive penetration" in the proud NE wrecker white beard tradition. The reality is that they were impatient, used a silly strobe and no continuous line.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
dsteding wrote: do you need to go to 180 to evaluate these risks? .
No, but I was thinking that someone (like John Rawlings for example) with several 180' dives on air is going to be far less anxious and much more comfortable at those depths than someone that has never been there before. I'd see the experience level as much more likely to produce a euphoric narcosis than a dark nasty narcosis.
dsteding wrote:
Point being, I think I can effectively evaluate the risks of deep air in Truuk or Bikini without taking a deep air class.
Absolutely. I'm not advocating a deep air class in any way shape or form. However, I still believe that someone with experiece in those conditions and depth ranges is better able to evaluate risks than someone that has never "been there, done that". This is true wether we're talking about deep air or diving the Admiral Sampson on mix and scooters.
defied wrote:I wonder if this comment comes derives from his history with the Father Son crew that died on the Uboat, because they couldn't afford trimix, and being cave divers (if I remember right), hadn't done deep dives on air, as well as the other divers who had lost their lives on air. It may seem pointless now, because we have the gas, but for how long will we be able to afford the He?
My $0.02 is that it's def preference on this class, as we now have the gas available for trimix, and heliox, but if the diver ever envisions him/herself having to do a deep dive on air, then it would be a good class to take, instead of doing it "in flight".
D(B)
The Rouse's were both deep air and trimix certified, it was a required course progression back then. They had quite a few deeper air dives under their belts. They skipped the He fills because they were on a budget and essentially died from panic after being trapped by a collapse. They had gas aplenty but they were "done done". Just goes to show you that even working up to these kinds of depths "in a class" isn't going to help you make sound decisions when impaired by N2 and CO2 and presented with a novel problem to solve (the collapse).
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
boydski wrote:However, I still believe that someone with experiece in those conditions and depth ranges is better able to evaluate risks than someone that has never "been there, done that". This is true wether we're talking about deep air or diving the Admiral Sampson on mix and scooters.
The Rouses were smart, considered their options, and died with gas on their backs doing what I'm sure in advance seemed like a reasonable plan to them. So I'm not sure deep air classes neceassarily build good judgement/wisdom or sound problem management skills. Some might, some might not. But its not necessarily by design or a function of the gas used as Chatterton believes.
Most days I think I need trimix at work
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
Correct me if I'm wrong here but we're the Rouses at 235' essentially that's 2 ATA beyond 180' which is the lower limit for Extended Range.
Also, the Rouses were killed by inadequate decompression they had dropped their deco bottles and couldn't find them due to the other problems including being narc'd.
Same thing would have happened on tri-mix if they had lost the deco bottles and given the circumstances of his being trapped, in all likelyhood the result might have been the same had they been on tri-mix.
That's why I don't believe in dropping your gas in an OW dive. There's no guarantee that you will be able to get back to it unlike in a cave where usually the path in is the path out.
Dave Mitchell
_______________________________
It's OK to hijack my threads!
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Dmitchell wrote:Also, the Rouses were killed by inadequate decompression they had dropped their deco bottles and couldn't find them due to the other problems including being narc'd.
Same thing would have happened on tri-mix if they had lost the deco bottles and given the circumstances of his being trapped, in all likelyhood the result might have been the same had they been on tri-mix.
They didn't really even look, they panicked and blew to the surface. Still had gas in their doubles. Chatterton himself says how they were totally unable to stay in the water to even do minimal decompression. Someone here will probably disagree with me, but I think the consensus is today that they would not have died on trimix because they would not have been pushed over the mental edge in the first place - even if they had still lost all their deco gas.
Yes it was a bit deeper than the offical extended range limits of today. Probably one reason why they have gotten incrementally shallower over the years. Exley was switching off the evil voodoo helium at 300+ft back in his day. Today people are decoing on 50/25 in the 70-30ft range to reap the benefits of helium on long saturation dive decos.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
Grateful Diver wrote:
I think it's more a matter of how Chatterton looks at diving, in general. If you know anything about the man you know that he's a great believer in "progressive development". You probably wouldn't consider his approach to wreck penetration a very good idea either ... but it works well for him.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
So, maybe he should say Deep Air was a good part of his development? I'd have no issues there. It just seems that he's such a prominent figure that people will respect what he says without scratching beneath the surface. I'm fine with multiple paths--lots of ways to skin a cat. Really. He was just saying one of the "important" steps on the path to being a technical diver is deep air.
Obviously, many people have deep air experience and value it. Some probably have it and don't recommend it. Some only have tastes of it on the margins, and know they don't need it. A diver considering technical training (which is the way I think the OP was intending this discussion to go) needs to see all those paths. Chatterton was defining one path as the only valid path, sound familiar?
Yep ... and I'm in agreement with you there. Been involved in a few discussions with JC on ScubaBoard, and don't always see things his way. He has a way of putting things sometimes ... but I guess from having been involved in those discussions I can kinda see where he's coming from. I don't think he intends to imply that his way is the only way ... but what can you say about a guy who ends every sentence with a question mark anyway, except that written skills aren't his strong suit ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix
Burntchef wrote: who on this board was even diving 16 years ago?
I was! 21 years this year!
I got stuck under Ice for 10 minutes a few weeks ago with a full 100 and only 2' down. I'll tell you what it gets your attention real quick. Much less at 235' in a rusty old sub.
Dave Mitchell
_______________________________
It's OK to hijack my threads!
Great Sites - Flickr and NSOP
I have not been below 130ft on air myself (that was a recreational dive in the Bahamas 10yrs ago) but I can definately see how I would need to have all mechanical tasks wired to function effectively deeper. And how if I looked really smooth and effortless with those tasks that would be one sign of a good diver.
Last edited by CaptnJack on Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
like fly to the Dominican Republic. 
