I need a Pony Bottle

Tom Nic · Post by **Tom Nic** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:19 pm

John Rawlings wrote:
Calvin Tang wrote:Nailer, Bob and I are preemptively spreading the Christmas cheer and you come along and give us that ghastly view of drunken, passed out Santa!

[Sorry for interrupting the thread]
Drunken? Passed out? Heck.....I figured that ol' Saint Nick had been shot!

Shot? Looked like advanced type 2 DCS to me! (He IS Calvin's Santa after his scooter ran away with him, isn't he?!?)

Tom Nic · Post by **Tom Nic** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:24 pm

GillyWeed wrote:
I note that you commented on getting something "inexpensive". When was the last time you found good, quality dive gear in thatcategory?
I was just hoping to stay under $500.

19 CU ft. Pony about $129 at UWS Divers Fair
Mount (sorry, but I forget which one ](*,) ) about $100
Mares Rebel 1st and second stage, about $179 at UWS Divers Fair

It CAN be done! The above gear is not "top of the line", but is certainly quality, safe dive gear. $\:D/$

Tom Nic · Post by **Tom Nic** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:35 pm

CaptnJack wrote:
Tom Nic wrote: I use a 19 cf Pony attached to my tank on my right side with the Reg clipped in the "triangle" in front of me.

I still have an octo on my main 1st stage, coming out on my left side, clipped in the "triangle" on the left side.

(Yes, that's alot of hoses, (3 Regs) but it's working for the kind of diving I do.)
The other issue I have personally with the whole triangle concept is that is necessitates getting vertical in the water - fins down and potentially in the mud. If you're in good trim the triangle is not visible and the OOA diver is going to grab for the reg in your mouth blowing bubbles anyway.

The "triangle" is ONLY about having a reliable and accessible location where I or my buddy KNOW to look for my octo or pony reg. It is NOT about being visible during the course of a dive, but it is really about being reliably "findable". (Both my octo and pony hoses are yellow.) I dive with my buddy but I'm not looking at his chest triangle area all the time, But I know the general area where his octo is if I need to get to it, whether or not I've gotten his attention. And as to being vertical, that only comes when we are in a low or out of air situation when we would want to be facing each other (at least initially) anyway, and trim would be a secondary issue to the air situation at that point. And if I am "surprised" and the OOA diver grabs the reg out of my mouth I am prepared for that as well by practice (and strong teeth!!).

Tom Nic · Post by **Tom Nic** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:42 pm

Nailer99 wrote:My .02:

I carry a 40 cf "slung" on my left side. I thought that having it mounted to my main tank was defenitely going to be for me, but I didn't like it there- it kept throwning my trim off, no matter how I moved my weighting around, and it just never felt "right."

Agreed, Nailer... I would sling anything larger than a 19. My 19 hasn't given me any trim problems mounted on my tank (I'm a pretty large guy, but have several gal friends who are tiny that also do 19's on their tank), but a 30 would be iffy. 40? Definitely sling it!

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:06 pm

Calvin Tang wrote:Nailer, Bob and I are preemptively spreading the Christmas cheer and you come along and give us that ghastly view of drunken, passed out Santa!

[Sorry for interrupting the thread]

All Santas sighted before Halloween will be dealt with in this fashion.

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:51 pm

Careful ... I might decide to leave it up all year ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

BDub · Post by **BDub** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:18 am

[/quote]I really like diving deep- 80-130 fsw always seems to be my favorite part of a dive (or a wee bit deeper, on occasion!)[/quote]

My .02....

Before buying a pony (without voicing an opinion either "for" or "against"), make sure you take the time to figure out what you actually need. As Doug stated earlier, they can provide a false sense of security. Here's an example how...

Nailer, you like diving in the 80 - 130fsw range right? Let's split the difference and say you're diving to 110'. For those of you who attended any of the gas management seminars a couple of months back, refer back the Rock Bottom portion of the workbook.

Running some quick and basic gas management calculations we can arrive at the following...

Nailer's at 110' and is out of air, for whatever reason it may be. If you run through the Rock Bottom calculations, using a 1.5 RMV (which could be very conservative in this instance), we'd find that he'd use around 29.5 cuft of gas to make a safe ascent.

In this scenario, Nailer has enough gas (40cuft pony) to make a proper, safe ascent...IF his pony is full. A 30cuft tank is marginal at best...do you really want to be within .5cuft, especially if you have one of those button/peanut spg's where you can't even see how much air is in your pony? A 19 is clearly not close to enough.

If you'd like to see how I arrived at this number, I can break it down in another post.

Again, my own personal opinions aside, if you decide to use a pony, PLEASE make sure it provides the amount of gas you need for the diving you do.

Brian

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:35 am

Brian, I have some friends in the Bothel area who have expressed interest in Bob's gas management classes in the past. Fed Way is always the wrong direction in icky traffic. If you host something similar sometime this winter, could you please post it here? I'll send them the info.

Thanks,
Richard

GillyWeed · Post by **GillyWeed** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:42 am

19 CU ft. Pony about $129 at UWS Divers Fair
Mount (sorry, but I forget which one ) about $100
Mares Rebel 1st and second stage, about $179 at UWS Divers Fair

I am really going to have to save up for next years divers fair... I was planning on buying my dry suit there next year. They need to have another one after christmas so I can spend my Christmas money on gear... I don't know if I can wait that long for the pony system. If I like Bob's sling system I might start buying a piece at a time. What I hate about that is that you have gear that just sits there and you cant use it because you don't have all the parts.. It's a toy you cannot play with and that's no fun. ](*,) Thanks for all the good discussion!

Holly

thelawgoddess · Post by **thelawgoddess** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:01 am

hey captnjack, the federal way seminar didn't work out for me either, but i was able to go to bdub's in kenmore. really good stuff ... really makes you think about things. i learned how to dive with bdub and we were introduced to gas mgmt from the get-go, so i thought it was something everyone was taught ... and i am still surpised when i come across divers whose gas mgmt consists of something like diving until they hit 500 psi. when we bring one of them along with us, we end up doing their gas mgmt for them - partly for their sake, but in my mind it's more for my own. i mean, what good will they be to me if something happens to my rig and i need to share their air when they barely have enough left for their own return? anyway, the thought of having a pony has crossed my mind for various reasons, and i think if i were to ever get one, it would be a 40cf.

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:09 pm

I think the biggest things to think about with any pony setup are going to be:

1. can you determine how much gas is left? can you determine how much gas is left underwater?

2. can you see/feel if the first stage/valve or second stage is free flowing?

3. can you reliably deploy the reg? will it always be where you think it should be?

4. can you manipulate the valve underwater if it was not turned on or if it rolled off (rolloffs are also not only encountered in a cave -- descending a line to a wreck can roll off a valve if you snag the line with the valve on the way down)

Basically the gas needs to get from the dive shop compressor down to your emergency at depth, and it needs to be usable. #1 and #2 are about getting the gas there, #3 and #4 are about making sure it is usable.

I also just had a great experience with a pony bottle today... My Argon bottle lacks a button gauge (I think I really need to remedy this, since it means I don't check the pressure anywhere near often enough) and my tank was totally drained when I checked it at Cove 2 this morning -- but I borrowed an Al19 pony bottle with air in it, which worked perfectly (although about 60 mins into the dive I started to wish I'd gotten an Ar fill the day before, and after my bottom timer rolled past 100 minutes I was shivering pretty good...)

So, pony bottles aren't all bad... =)

BDub · Post by **BDub** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:22 am

CaptnJack wrote:Brian, I have some friends in the Bothel area who have expressed interest in Bob's gas management classes in the past. Fed Way is always the wrong direction in icky traffic. If you host something similar sometime this winter, could you please post it here? I'll send them the info.

Thanks,
Richard

Will do Richard....I imagine I'll probably be doing one sometime in November or December.

I'll keep you posted.

Sergeant Pepper · Post by **Sergeant Pepper** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:17 pm

I didn't read this entire post, but I did read a few comments that concerned me. I can't count the number of times that I stopped to look at some great nudibranch, turned around to realize that my buddy was 20 ft away from me. In an emergency 20 ft could be a real problem depending on where in the breath you are and what the circumstance is. While I dont currently have a pony bottle, and I DO BELEIVE that an attentive buddy is a great safety necessity, I will be getting a pony as soon as finances will allow.

Too much equipment = too much to think of.
Pony Bottle = Good common sense with caveat (used properly).

Post by . » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:05 pm

GillyWeed wrote:
... by inexpencive I kind of was hoping to find a pony from someone who maybe had gotten a bigger tank and didn't need their bottle anymore.
...
I was just hoping to stay under $500.
Holly

I bought a new first stage for my pony recently from a diver who had what you were looking for, a perfectly good pony bottle that he didn't need anymore because he went to a larger one. If I still have his info, I will pass it on to you. I found him by searching Craigslist.

$500 should do you just fine. I bought my pony (19cf) used several years ago and it's served me well.

As far as mounting brackets, here's the one I use:

http://www.quickdrawbracket.com/productCat84001.ctlg

The ring part stays mounted on your pony, and the receiver part is threaded through your bc strap and stays on your bc.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:48 pm

I would understand getting >20ft away once, and I would discuss it in a post dive briefing. But I would not dive with a buddy who got >20ft away from me more than once. I value situational awareness very highly - probably even more than actual UW problem solving ability.

GillyWeed · Post by **GillyWeed** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:08 am

Thanks Brinybay,

I haven't looked on Craigslist or ebay. But I could try it. I am wary about buying something from someone I don't know. Not that I know everyone on this board, but at least I probably know someone on this board who knows someone, if you know what I mean...

I would understand getting >20ft away once, and I would discuss it in a post dive briefing. But I would not dive with a buddy who got >20ft away from me more than once.

Captian Jack.. I agree with this as well. However, you cannot always dive with the same person and 20' away is too far away even once if you have a failure... You only get one chance then...

Cheers,

Holly

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:34 pm

GillyWeed wrote:Thanks Brinybay,

I haven't looked on Craigslist or ebay. But I could try it. I am wary about buying something from someone I don't know. Not that I know everyone on this board, but at least I probably know someone on this board who knows someone, if you know what I mean...

I would understand getting >20ft away once, and I would discuss it in a post dive briefing. But I would not dive with a buddy who got >20ft away from me more than once.
Captian Jack.. I agree with this as well. However, you cannot always dive with the same person and 20' away is too far away even once if you have a failure... You only get one chance then...

Cheers,

Holly

If your buddy is 20 feet away from you, throw an OOA on them...

I had this done to me the other day, when I got about 15 feet away from my buddy and pointed the other direction, and right when I was getting *very* uncomfortable about our positioning I got the flashing HID light of an OOA...

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:07 pm

You talkin' to me or Gillyweed?

Good suggestion,

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:24 pm

lamont wrote: If your buddy is 20 feet away from you, throw an OOA on them...

I had this done to me the other day, when I got about 15 feet away from my buddy and pointed the other direction, and right when I was getting *very* uncomfortable about our positioning I got the flashing HID light of an OOA...

I actually look for such situations when I'm diving with my regular buddies now. They don't happen much, but when they do, I think I will always toss an OOA their way.

BTW, Lamont, I signed up for the Back to Basics seminar, thanks for mentioning that a while back. I'm looking forward to it.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:53 am

That's a great suggestion - sure would get buddy's attention for being too far away!

GillyWeed · Post by **GillyWeed** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:45 am

If your buddy is 20 feet away from you, throw an OOA on them...

That's assuming that they are actually looking at you to see the OOA which is the case with me when my buddy is 20' away it means he is NOT paying attention.. OR you have to take in to consideration that you can even see your buddy at all 20'.. We are diving in the Puget Sound right? I like the idea of throwing it on my sometimes less than attentive buddy..

It might teach him a lesson... hmmm. Still need a pony bottle though just for the fact that I do dive sometimes with a guy that has mild ADD..

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:51 am

I agree 20ft is oftentimes at the margins of visibility. You and Sarg. Pepper need new buddies IMO

Would you go rock climbing with a buddy who sometimes held the belay rope?

GillyWeed · Post by **GillyWeed** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:55 am

I agree 20ft is oftentimes at the margins of visibility. You and Sarg. Pepper need new buddies IMO

Would you go rock climbing with a buddy who sometimes held the belay rope?

I agree I need a new buddy sometimes too.. But a good buddy is hard to find sometimes..

I wouldn't go rock climbing at all (probably)...I can swim but I cannot fly.

Ok, well maybe I would rock climb, but I wouldn't rock climb with my current dive buddy that's for sure!

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:29 am

GillyWeed, you've gotten tons of suggestions here, so take this for what it is worth. You certainly seem to be thinking things out, which I think is the core of being a safe diver.

Is it possible, however, to chat with your buddy? It seems to me that people dive like that not because of some urge to be unsafe, but simply because they don't know any better. I certainly didn't until I started to dive with Bob and some of the DIR types that really emphasize teamwork and buddy skills.

My first dive with Lynne (TSandM over on Scubaboard) was on one of the
FifthD buddy dives. Among other things, she briefed me on where she wanted me (I think her exact words were "stay where I can see you, and definitely don't ride my shoulder) and how to communicate with my light. After a few dives with those types of divers, I realized that was how I wanted to dive, and that I felt more comfortable when I knew exactly what procedures and methods would be used.

I was lucky because people caught me before I devloped bad habits, but good buddy skills were something I really only became aware of after my OW course (PADI, in Thailand). It may be a bit more difficult with your current buddy, because people do get set in their ways. That being said, this is a sport where we can kill ourselves fairly easily . . . so if you have serious safety concerns then raise them with your buddy. Even if this is an issue of comfort, raise it with your buddy, it seems to me that lots of accidents happen because people are not comfortable, and things roll downhill from there. Breaking the chain of an accident can start by talking things out before the dive.

If that doesn't work, find new dive buddies. I'll dive with you, and I know there are others here that will do so as well.

GillyWeed · Post by **GillyWeed** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:32 am

dsteding...

I have 'chatted' with my buddy a few times. Usually after the dive while throwing something at him... I don't really know if he can help himself.. I mentioned ADD, and I do believe he may have a slight adult version of this.. He is avid about safety above water and then when we get down he kind of forgets.. But not all the time. Yes, we are in a sport were we can easily kill ourselves, but that's why I would like to be as self sufficient as possible.

Let's face the other fact that some people have the personality to look out for others and some have the personality that needs to be looked after. Should someone who needs looking after not be able to do the best thing in the world (diving) because they have attention defficit disorder? It's a good debate. I am not trying to put myself in danger either, but I think that it is a more reasonable risk if I am self sufficient and can rely on myself for back up air. And I can then be a little freer with my hyperactive buddy to let him be himself. Besides, I know that if he is acting particularily bad I can always call the dive. And then hit him on the nose with the paper... Or throw an OOA at him.. That really is a good idea..

Is it possible, however, to chat with your buddy? It seems to me that people dive like that not because of some urge to be unsafe, but simply because they don't know any better. I certainly didn't until I started to dive with Bob and some of the DIR types that really emphasize teamwork and buddy skills.

Sometimes a riskier diver needs a safer diver to keep them in check. And to teach them safer practices so that each time they go out they are a little better and a little better.. Just like your scenario with Bob... You didn't know any better. But people don't learn things overnight. Well some do, but not most. And unfortunately some people do dive with an urge to be unsafe. They say they don't but sometimes machismo or competitive nature gets the better of people.

I will continue to have "chats' with my buddy and try to teach him better diving practices. (I still need to learn them myself I am only on dive 60).. I happen to think he is a pretty nice guy (above water) and would like him to stick around awhile. So if I don't look after him who will? And If I am looking after him.. Who is looking after me?.... Me, that's who.

I know a lot out there are probably going to disagree with me but that's my opinion and I am sticking to it. And if I dove with them I would be watching their back as well. Even if my back was exposed..

Thanks,

Holly

Northwest Dive Club

I need a Pony Bottle

Re: Pony