Techreational

This forum is provided for the further edification of our club members seeking to improve their knowledge and diving skills. (recreational diving only)
User avatar
BASSMAN
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5808
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:55 am

Re: Techreational

Post by BASSMAN »

Grateful Diver wrote:I think there are too many labels ... and those who enjoy using them are almost always looking for some way to differentiate themselves from "the herd". For the most part labels are more divisive than descriptive. That's why I generally don't like 'em.

Why don't we just go diving and quit trying to coin terms to let everyone else know why we're somehow "different" than someone else.
This reminds me of a quote I heard my teenage daughter say.
"Don't lable me, I'm not a can of Soup!"


Okay I've got the answer to my questions. :bow:
Laura :eric: :snorkel: , you have been the most informative on the subject, :thankyouyellow:


Lets go diving! (Next Thursday :evil4: )

I have to admit this has been an interesting post to watch :popcorn:

Keith
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict! :supz:
User avatar
Sounder
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7231
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 2:39 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Sounder »

Yeah, knock it off guys - I'm kind of freaking out here. It started around the Mukilteo thing and then progressed following Jake's death.

There has been a different tone as of late. :grouphug:

I mean, I like it and all... but it's freaking me out a bit. Can't someone call someone else a stroke or something?! I'm not sure my head can handle this! :lalala:
I've heard of "lake-effect" but could we possibly be experiencing a "Jake-effect?"

:angry:
GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!
User avatar
BASSMAN
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5808
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:55 am

Re: Techreational

Post by BASSMAN »

Sounder wrote:Yeah, knock it off guys - I'm kind of freaking out here. It started around the Mukilteo thing and then progressed following Jake's death.

There has been a different tone as of late. :grouphug:

I mean, I like it and all... but it's freaking me out a bit. Can't someone call someone else a stroke or something?! I'm not sure my head can handle this! :lalala:
I've heard of "lake-effect" but could we possibly be experiencing a "Jake-effect?"

:angry:
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this relates to Jake's death. :dontknow: :der:

It was just a simple question, open for discussion.
:book: :smt024 :chat:

Where did Jake fit into this? :dontknow:
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict! :supz:
User avatar
LCF
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by LCF »

Well, I understand not liking the divisions that follow labels. But I will again say that there is a different mindset between what I was taught in open water, and the way people doing staged decompression dives approach their diving. And it's not a bright line, but rather that the deeper or more complex the dive, the more thought ought to go into it, and the more things that you don't know can cause you trouble.

Nowhere in the PADI educational sequence (the one with which I am familiar, both as a student and as someone watching her husband go through instructor training) is gas management taught. But it's integral to technical dive training, and I think it's a good idea for recreational divers doing deeper dives. Similarly, few of the divers I've dived with on tropical tour boats do any kind of skills practice, but technical divers stay current on skills, and I think it's a good idea for people doing deeper or more complex dives that are still within no decompression limits.

I think there is a transition in mindset, and I think it's a good transition for divers who are working close to the limits, and it is taught.
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Grateful Diver »

LCF wrote:Well, I understand not liking the divisions that follow labels. But I will again say that there is a different mindset between what I was taught in open water, and the way people doing staged decompression dives approach their diving. And it's not a bright line, but rather that the deeper or more complex the dive, the more thought ought to go into it, and the more things that you don't know can cause you trouble.

Nowhere in the PADI educational sequence (the one with which I am familiar, both as a student and as someone watching her husband go through instructor training) is gas management taught. But it's integral to technical dive training, and I think it's a good idea for recreational divers doing deeper dives. Similarly, few of the divers I've dived with on tropical tour boats do any kind of skills practice, but technical divers stay current on skills, and I think it's a good idea for people doing deeper or more complex dives that are still within no decompression limits.

I think there is a transition in mindset, and I think it's a good transition for divers who are working close to the limits, and it is taught.
I can see where you're coming from, there's a huge difference in "mindset" between how you were initially taught to dive and how you dive now. I don't think that's a difference between "technical" and "recreational", however.

I think you're seeing it more from the perspective of where you took your initial training ... which is a shop where instructors are encouraged to take a very narrow ... and what they perceive to be "traditional" mindset toward diving. I don't believe that has as much to do with recreational vs tech as it does shop culture.

Back when I was being mentored by Uncle Pug, he used to tell me that I needed to "rethink my approach to that dive". In his own way, he was giving me the same change in perspective that you're talking about. But it had little to do with tech diving, and everything to do with helping me understand the different choices available to me at whatever level I chose to apply them.

He helped me understand that diving's really just a continuum ... rather than a discrete set of different approaches ... and that as we progress to longer, deeper, more complex dive plans it's not because we're getting into some different way of diving, but rather because we're learning to choose better tools, and use better methods, to build on what we've already been doing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
Sounder
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7231
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 2:39 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Sounder »

BASSMAN wrote:
Sounder wrote:Yeah, knock it off guys - I'm kind of freaking out here. It started around the Mukilteo thing and then progressed following Jake's death.

There has been a different tone as of late. :grouphug:

I mean, I like it and all... but it's freaking me out a bit. Can't someone call someone else a stroke or something?! I'm not sure my head can handle this! :lalala:
I've heard of "lake-effect" but could we possibly be experiencing a "Jake-effect?"

:angry:
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this relates to Jake's death. :dontknow: :der:

It was just a simple question, open for discussion.
:book: :smt024 :chat:

Where did Jake fit into this? :dontknow:
Sorry - I was trying to make a humorous observation regarding how recently some folks have had fun with discussion scenerios that, in the past, could have gone down hill.

Jake's thing has nothing to do with it.

My attempt at communicating it fell flat. #-o
GUE Seattle - The official GUE Affiliate in the Northwest!
User avatar
BASSMAN
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5808
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:55 am

Re: Techreational

Post by BASSMAN »

No worries,It's all good! Hey!
When are you going to join in on a Thursday dive? :smt064

I might be coming up to the North end next month. :boucegreen:
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict! :supz:
User avatar
LCF
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by LCF »

as we progress to longer, deeper, more complex dive plans it's not because we're getting into some different way of diving, but rather because we're learning to choose better tools, and use better methods, to build on what we've already been doing.
Absolutely agreed!

But Bob, wouldn't you agree with me that the majority of people who get certified to dive are taught a very similar curriculum, and a similar mindset to what I was originally taught?
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
User avatar
Grateful Diver
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5322
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 7:52 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Grateful Diver »

LCF wrote:
as we progress to longer, deeper, more complex dive plans it's not because we're getting into some different way of diving, but rather because we're learning to choose better tools, and use better methods, to build on what we've already been doing.
Absolutely agreed!

But Bob, wouldn't you agree with me that the majority of people who get certified to dive are taught a very similar curriculum, and a similar mindset to what I was originally taught?
Yes ... but locally I see that changing with some of the new instructors we've gotten over the past four or five years. For the most part, the instructors who teach the way you learned have been doing it for a while, and are mentally "stuck" in an earlier era.

I don't see that as a distinction between "recreational" and "tech" so much as simply an evolution in how we think about diving. Even people who choose a more "traditional" training path will ... through experience or mentorship ... eventually adapt their mental approach as they get more skilled and start doing more advanced types of dives.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix

Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
User avatar
ljjames
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2725
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:46 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by ljjames »

and this progression that bob mentions is the number one reason to not diss 'the other guys'

i remember being told outright that i was gonna kill my stupid self, by someone who is now a very active extended range diver.
----
"I survived the Brittandrea Dorikulla, where's my T-shirt!"
User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10250
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Joshua Smith »

The funny thing about PNW diving is that a lot of our OW divers end up in a Hogarthian config almost right out of the gate- we have a lot of people that look for all the world like they're heading out to dive the Doria every time they splash (and, yes, I am definitely guilty of this- I've done a few 40-60' dives on my CCR lately, because it's all I have. Freaking ridiculous). Many or our recreational divers are about halfway to a technical mindset after a year or so. Which is great- I think we grow some of the best divers in the world here. "If you can dive here, you can dive anywhere...." etc, etc. But it does kind of make the lines blurry. When I see a diver wearing a hog rig and doubles, sporting a 50 watt HID light, I have no idea if he or she is trained through full trimix, or OW/ AOW. I don't really think it's like that in Florida, but I've never been, so what do I know?

I like Bob's idea that it's just a progression. But I also favor the old definition of "tech."

-Planned deco dives- depth, run time, gas usage, gasses other than air, all planned before you dive, with contingencies for lost gas, buddy seperation, etc. Key element is planning to go into mandatory decompression- a "soft cieling."
-deeper than 130'.
-overhead environments.

Works for me. You can find weird, slippery, in between stuff- like ice diving. To me, that would be a technical dive. And a rec diver does not become a tech diver because they bounce past 130'. That's just a rec diver breaking the rules. (You know who you are- and the Scuba cops are gonna getcha.) Others might disagree. It's like the old Supreme Court Pornography quote: "I'm not sure I can tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it."

So why do we need yet another term for the dives we're doing, anyway?
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by CaptnJack »

Joshua Smith wrote:The funny thing about PNW diving is that a lot of our OW divers end up in a Hogarthian config almost right out of the gate- we have a lot of people that look for all the world like they're heading out to dive the Doria every time they splash (and, yes, I am definitely guilty of this- I've done a few 40-60' dives on my CCR lately, because it's all I have. Freaking ridiculous). Many or our recreational divers are about halfway to a technical mindset after a year or so. Which is great- I think we grow some of the best divers in the world here. "If you can dive here, you can dive anywhere...." etc, etc. But it does kind of make the lines blurry. When I see a diver wearing a hog rig and doubles, sporting a 50 watt HID light, I have no idea if he or she is trained through full trimix, or OW/ AOW. I don't really think it's like that in Florida, but I've never been, so what do I know?
When I learned to dive in 1993 (4?) this was definately not the case. I learned in a jacket BC, some gawd awful fins, a wetsuit, snorkel, big old dangly console etc etc. If I hadn't sold this gear to raise a tiny bit of cash and clear out my garage I might still be able to dive that stuff :angelblue:

I think there are quite a few people still learning this way, I see my old gear out there alot.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
BDub
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:39 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by BDub »

Joshua Smith wrote:So why do we need yet another term for the dives we're doing, anyway?
For the c-card....duh! :evil4:
http://www.frogkickdiving.com/

"It's a lot easier when you're not doing it" - CaseyB449

"There needs to be more strawberry condoms. Just not on my regulator" - DSteding
defied
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2057
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:14 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by defied »

Techreational Certification - $350.00

Without this card, if you have the slightest hint of knowing what you are doing in cold water exposure, we will not fill your air.
I can see it now... 0|

D(B)
User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10250
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Joshua Smith »

Oh, same here. And within a year I was rockin' a BP/W, HID light, doubles....and from what I see around here, it's not uncommon for a new diver to start diving right after class with at least *some* gear they thought was uber-kewl when they started, and be laughing (or crying- it depends) about it within a year.

CaptnJack wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:The funny thing about PNW diving is that a lot of our OW divers end up in a Hogarthian config almost right out of the gate- we have a lot of people that look for all the world like they're heading out to dive the Doria every time they splash (and, yes, I am definitely guilty of this- I've done a few 40-60' dives on my CCR lately, because it's all I have. Freaking ridiculous). Many or our recreational divers are about halfway to a technical mindset after a year or so. Which is great- I think we grow some of the best divers in the world here. "If you can dive here, you can dive anywhere...." etc, etc. But it does kind of make the lines blurry. When I see a diver wearing a hog rig and doubles, sporting a 50 watt HID light, I have no idea if he or she is trained through full trimix, or OW/ AOW. I don't really think it's like that in Florida, but I've never been, so what do I know?
When I learned to dive in 1993 (4?) this was definately not the case. I learned in a jacket BC, some gawd awful fins, a wetsuit, snorkel, big old dangly console etc etc. If I hadn't sold this gear to raise a tiny bit of cash and clear out my garage I might still be able to dive that stuff :angelblue:

I think there are quite a few people still learning this way, I see my old gear out there alot.
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
User avatar
Paulicarp
Aquanaut
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:08 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Paulicarp »

I have yet to buy my first piece of dive gear, and I've done nothing beyond textbook work so far. I've wanted to dive for many years but have not made the commitment to do it until January of this year. Since then, I've read a basic textbook and an advanced textbook both older but comprehensive, and I've completed the SDI online training and passed the written with a 94%(not worth the time it took me to do it, and that was only 22 hrs).

In just a short time I've migrated very far in my thinking on what classes I'm interested in and what gear I will buy when I'm ready. Personally, I realize I have a lot of limitations as a brand new diver, but I am optimistic that I will progress to doing deep dives, wreck penetration, scooters, etc. Could I buy the jacket BC kit with the dive computer and the air 2 as my "octo" with set of uber kewl smoke on the water splitfins? Yes, I could, and I would be ecstatic just to be able to breathe air under water. But I also want to be able to get on the Diamond Knot, and I'm willing to do the work and develop the skills that it takes to get me there.

OK, the very first day I put a reg in my mouth, I am a "recreational" diver? Yes, but alot of the diving that I hope to someday be able to do requires an approach to fundementals that is not the same as the diver that wants to get certified while on vacation in cozumel over the course of 4 margaritas and has no intention of going deeper than 20 ft. Some people don't want to worry about decompression and they don't want to have to think about what their SAC is. Cool. They should be taught to dive within boundaries and guidelines that will keep them safe so they don't have to think any more than necessary. As far as I'm concerned, every dive I do is a decompression dive, it's just that at this stage of my training I'm limited to decompressing at 1ATM. I want to know all the "whys" and I want to learn how to go beyond those limitations when my training and experience is sufficient to let me move on. So I'm looking at gear in a whole new way than I did a month ago.

If you asked me a month ago what the coolest piece of equipment on the market is, I would have either said "Atomic SS1 safe second," or some dive computer costing over $700. Today, I have no intention of buying either one of those, and the imprex "PRO" that I was keen on doesn't look as PRO to me now as it did at first. I thought that a 7ft primary hose was crazy, until I heard an explaination of how it's used and why. I know that I don't NEED it yet, but some day soon I hope to be doing diving that I will feel that I need it for, so why not buy it long the first time around instead of a short one now and a long one next year?
User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10250
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Joshua Smith »

That's cool, Pauli- I'm glad you're doing the research. I have yet to dive the knot myself, but I will. Please do us all a favor though: Don't get too far ahead of yourself. Build experience. Learn the basics before you plunge on ahead.

Keep in mind, this advice is coming from me, the "Too Far, Too Fast" poster child- 2006, 2007, AND 2008. Since I probably won't be going for my "Full Cave, Rebreather, Lemon Wedge Sidemount" cert this year, 2009 is up for grabs.
I was the irritating guy in the pool who was asking my instructor if she could teach me wreck penetration while we were all lined up in the shallow end, practicing putting the regs in our mouths, breathing with our faces underwater.

The flip side of "Don't go too fast" is "you're ready when you're ready." (for more training.) That's between you, your instructor, and your dive buddies. And no one else.

Get your OW cert finished, and dive, dive, dive.

Drop me a line- I'll come dive with you.
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
User avatar
Paulicarp
Aquanaut
Posts: 646
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:08 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Paulicarp »

Joshua Smith wrote:Please do us all a favor though: Don't get too far ahead of yourself. Build experience. Learn the basics before you plunge on ahead.
got it :salute:

In the words of BigFame, "Nothing wrong with asking questions and doing homework. I sat in on an Intro to Tech class and on a Tech 1 class before I had even gotten one dive in beyond my OW classes. I think it is a great way to see why some of he why's make sense down the road."

I think in the context of this thread, my point is that we have more than our share of great dives in the northwest area that require more than a simple "recreational" aproach to diving, and with the growth in availability of mixed gasses and the introduction of scooters they are more reachable by the skilled recreational diver than they were just 15 years ago. So I'm inclined to think that the number of those who start out from the very beginning with a somewhat "technical" approach is bound to grow as a result of those advances, and thus the line between "recreational" and "technical" is bound to become blurred.

--Pauli
User avatar
Pez7378
I've Got Gills
Posts: 3256
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:09 am

Re: Techreational

Post by Pez7378 »

Paulicarp wrote:
Joshua Smith wrote:Please do us all a favor though: Don't get too far ahead of yourself. Build experience. Learn the basics before you plunge on ahead.
got it :salute:

In the words of BigFame, "Nothing wrong with asking questions and doing homework. I sat in on an Intro to Tech class and on a Tech 1 class before I had even gotten one dive in beyond my OW classes. I think it is a great way to see why some of he why's make sense down the road."

I think in the context of this thread, my point is that we have more than our share of great dives in the northwest area that require more than a simple "recreational" aproach to diving, and with the growth in availability of mixed gasses and the introduction of scooters they are more reachable by the skilled recreational diver than they were just 15 years ago. So I'm inclined to think that the number of those who start out from the very beginning with a somewhat "technical" approach is bound to grow as a result of those advances, and thus the line between "recreational" and "technical" is bound to become blurred.

--Pauli
Off topic, but fitting for the direction this conversation has taken. There is some good advice here for the aspiring new diver.

http://www.divematrix.com/showthread.php?t=6486
User avatar
BASSMAN
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5808
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:55 am

Re: Techreational

Post by BASSMAN »

Gee, I'm starting to think a good definition of Techreational is a "Pacific Northwest Diver Technique/Philosiphy" (sp?)
What a fun thread! =D>
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict! :supz:
defied
I've Got Gills
Posts: 2057
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:14 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by defied »

BASSMAN wrote:Gee, I'm starting to think a good definition of Techreational is a "Pacific Northwest Diver Technique/Philosiphy" (sp?)
What a fun thread! =D>
But wouldn't that be PNDTP? PaNDaToP? PouNDTaP? PacNorWesDivTechPhi?

D(B)
User avatar
BASSMAN
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5808
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:55 am

Re: Techreational

Post by BASSMAN »

defied wrote:
BASSMAN wrote:Gee, I'm starting to think a good definition of Techreational is a "Pacific Northwest Diver Technique/Philosiphy" (sp?)
What a fun thread! =D>
But wouldn't that be PNDTP? PaNDaToP? PouNDTaP? PacNorWesDivTechPhi?

D(B)
:der: :dontknow: :lalala:
#-o You must have spent some time in the millitary :shootself: :salute:

Let me guess, Your the guy who see's a line forming and goes there and stands in it. :looking: :looking: :looking: :looking: :uh:

After only 4 years in the Navy, I learned the valuable acronym...
Never Again Volunteer Yourself :evil4:
Hi, my name is Keith, and I'm a Dive Addict! :supz:
User avatar
Tom Nic
I've Got Gills
Posts: 9368
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:26 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by Tom Nic »

This has really been a great thread - thoughtful answers, pretty clear for the most part, opinions shared respectfully, etc. etc. I've enjoyed reading it.

Can I hold up this thread as an example of dialog having "progressed" to a really good place on this board? Perhaps I'm being a bit naive, and I realize that at any moment someone could lose their minds :eek: :extinguishflame: and begin flaming away as their hot button got pushed, but I for one have really enjoyed the discussion.

=D>
More Pics Than You Have Time To Look AT
"Anyone who thinks this place is over moderated is bat-crazy anarchist." -Ben, Airsix
"Warning: No dive masters are going to be there, Just a bunch of old fat guys taking pictures of fish." -Bassman
User avatar
BDub
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:39 pm

Re: Techreational

Post by BDub »

I don't see the need for another label or term, but to me, techreational would be more along the lines of a recreational dive where you're exceeding MDL or NDL's (whatever you want to call it) and deco'ing on backgas instead of a deco gas (which, to me, is a tech dive).
http://www.frogkickdiving.com/

"It's a lot easier when you're not doing it" - CaseyB449

"There needs to be more strawberry condoms. Just not on my regulator" - DSteding
User avatar
Marc
Extreme Diving Machine
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:51 am

Re: Techreational

Post by Marc »

BDub wrote:I don't see the need for another label or term, but to me, techreational would be more along the lines of a recreational dive where you're exceeding MDL or NDL's (whatever you want to call it) and deco'ing on backgas instead of a deco gas (which, to me, is a tech dive).
I agree.
Reporter: "The helmet has a special meaning for many drivers. How important is it to you?"

Raikkonen: "It protects my head."
Post Reply