Tacoma Equipment Dive on Saturday

[BASSMAN]

Which one did you miss?

:luv: :queenliz:
And maybe a few others.

You had to ask

[Grateful Diver]

One more little tidbit of context ... the "don't dive deeper than the cubic feet in your tank" is intended as an easy-to-remember rule of thumb to help new divers with their dive planning. In the seminar ... as in my AOW class ... it is presented as such. It was never intended as a hard and fast "law" that applied to everybody in all cases.

In most things that we do, when we first start out, applying rules of thumb helps keep us out of trouble as we develop better skills. As those skills develop, those rules of thumb may or may not continue to apply ... but they're there to help keep us safe until we've got the tools to craft better decisions based on experience and applied knowledge.

Diving's a very dynamic activity ... and it's not so much that "rules are meant to be broken" as it is that "rules are meant to be applied intelligently" ... in this case, by reviewing the risks and deciding as individuals whether or not we're prepared to deal with them. It's often perfectly valid to conclude that a rule doesn't apply to you ... but before drawing that conclusion, it helps to understand why the rule exists in the first place ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BASSMAN]

Guilty as charged. I dove to 127' on my 100 cu ft tank and had no pony bottle.
But I did have 1 Kirby with doubles and a Pony!
If I do that dive again, I would like to have a 130 cu ft tank. It would just feel more comfortable.
Kirby with Doubles was good too!
Future purchase...a pair of 130's!


Keith

[Tangfish]

Constructive criticism of other members is strongly discouraged unless explicitly asked for by a poster. In other words, do not give advice to others unless it’s explicitly asked for by that person.

[Shaker100]

Wow. I never thought my little post would set this whole thing off. I think the gas management horse has been throughly beaten in the last few days, so I will avoid kicking it on my way off the dive board tonight. I thought I would post to let you know I went to 100 ft and am still alive. I also learned there are some really open minded people in the NW Dive Club and some strong willed ones too. I respect all of your opinions, as I am sure you respect mine and others with whom you might disagree.

Oh, Someone was wondering, so I will say that I dive with a 30 cu pony bottle, and a seperate spare air device. My dive buddy ended up using a 119 cu steel tank.

[rjarnold]

Tangfish, are you serious or was that sarcasm? Maybe I'd find that "rule" in the forum guidelines or whatever if I looked into them, but I certainly hope not.

I would think that until new divers stop visiting this board, we should always give constructive criticism (it is, afterall, how we learn and become better divers, isn't that an important goal of this board?). If someone understands gas management and still wants to do it their way, that's absolutely fine and his/her philosophy on gas management should be respected.

[Norris]

I think you are missing the point. I would also suggest looking at the "rules" though.
Many people dont respond well to people pushing their opinions, gear configs, or suggestions on them when not asked. This is what happened in this thread considering someone wanted to do a 100fsw dive on an AL80.
The rule of not diving deeper than the cubic feet of your tank is a "guideline" and a sound one at that. This doesnt mean that diving to 100fsw with an 80 is certain doom, it is just a guideline. So the op of this thread wasn't asking for opinions, or asking for suggestions, they were simply organizing a dive and of course some people feel compelled to put their 2psi in concerning the planned dive and that was clearly against the board's TOS.
I personally dont feel that we should offer constructive critisism unless it is asked for. Not everyone that learns to dive wants to be mentored or babysat. Not all divers are so inept that they absolutely need to follow a herd and have their hands held every dive. The divers that I am referring to are the ones that would certainly take some offense to people shaking their finger at them as they preach how what they are doing it WRONG.
So I understand this particular TOS and appreciate that Calvin has reminded everyone of it.

My 2psi

[rjarnold]

I don't think I'm missing the point at all - what if this person was newer to diving and didn't know that diving to 100 feet on an ally 80 was considered by some to not be the best choice? Do I have to specify in every post I write that if someone thinks that I have an error in my calculations they should feel free to comment? Is it so hard for someone to post that they understand the risks of the their proposed plan? Some peoples lives may have been saved if someone would have stood up and said 'Hey, you know that you might be want to consider x."

[Norris]

I don't think I'm missing the point at all - what if this person was newer to diving and didn't know that diving to 100 feet on an ally 80 was considered by some to not be the best choice? Do I have to specify in every post I write that if someone thinks that I have an error in my calculations they should feel free to comment? Is it so hard for someone to post that they understand the risks of the their proposed plan? Some peoples lives may have been saved if someone would have stood up and said 'Hey, you know that you might be want to consider x."

Again...there was nothing dangerous about this dive. The op didn't say "We are going to 100 feet with no ponies and plan to spend an hour or to 500 psi whichever comes first. People then, made their "what if" assumptions and threw their OW guidelines at the poster while at the same time tightening their super SCUBA capes. At no time did the OP ask for guidance and if someone was that concerned maybe PM the op and ask about it.

[airsix]

I'm not trying to make trouble, and Rick, I hear you. However, Rachel has a very valid argument too. If you see or hear of someone planning to do something you think puts them in a degree of peril they are possibly unaware of should we just sit silently in the name of tolerance? I would much rather people inform me when they think I'm headed for some trouble than to watch me get hurt (or killed?) and walk away saying to themselves "Well I saw that coming, but I didn't want to hurt his feelings."

I don't think PM's are the solution either. What about the 15yr old OW student that reads a thread and thinks "Well that must be the way to do it." because the warnings and mentoring was done by PM.

I don't think there is anything wrong with unsolicited advice if it is regarding safety, is given to protect the recipient, and is done in the right tone. That last part is important. It's Calvin's board, so I'll live by Calvin's rules. I'm just stating my opinion.

Let this serve as my standing letter of authorization. Members of Northwest Dive Club are hereby granted invitation to critique, advise, council, judge, evaluate, and peer review my diving activities in public forum and in private so long as said activities are conducted for the purpose of improving my skill, personal safety, safety of others around me, and for the enhancement of my diving and diving related experiences. These privileges remain in effect until explicitly revoked. As my friends I expect you to speak up when you see me screwing up.

[Dashrynn]

Let this serve as my standing letter of authorization. Members of Northwest Dive Club are hereby granted invitation to critique, advise, council, judge, evaluate, and peer review my diving activities in public forum and in private so long as said activities are conducted for the purpose of improving my skill, personal safety, safety of others around me, and for the enhancement of my diving and diving related experiences. These privileges remain in effect until explicitly revoked. As my friends I expect you to speak up when you see me screwing up.

well said, and i agree (even though i know its gonna happen anyways ) just so much as it factual and not mythical advice. I like for experience to be my teacher, and theory be the tuitor.

[Grateful Diver]

Well ... there's advice, and then there's opinion ... the difference being how you decide to state it. I've been known to have strong opinions about diving practices. I've also learned ... even through some exchanges on this board ... that how you put things makes a difference in how it will be received. An example ... something that occurred earlier today.

I was down at Sund Rock with lologrande ... we were gearing up on that wonderful new bench they've got down there, and another pair of divers was gearing up next to us. Something about their mannerisms suggest "new divers" to me ... so I decided to pay attention to what they were doing ... strictly as an observer. But one of the things I observed was that the woman not only didn't have her BCD inflator hose connected ... she didn't even have a BCD inflator hose on her regulator. So I asked about it.

She and her dive buddy (who I assume was a husband or boyfriend) told me they were reasonably experienced warm-water divers, but very new to cold water. This was to be their first post-class drysuit dive. When I asked about not hooking up the BCD, he said "What for ... we were trained to use our drysuit for bouyancy control". I mentioned that you still needed a BCD for surface swimming ... and someone on the other side of them mentioned that it would be a good idea to have your BCD inflator active in case your suit flooded. He decided at that point to put the hose on.

At no time did either of us say anything judgmental ... nor try to tell them they should be doing it differently. We just gave them options ... and reasons why ... and let them decide.

See, when you approach someone from the perspective that they're doing something wrong, it makes them defensive ... and usually makes them not want to hear what you're saying. People are really good at rationalizing what they're doing ... even when you try telling them why it's better to do it some other way. But expressing your opinion as options leaves it up to them to decide ... and most people want to decide to do what's safer, or easier, or more comfortable. Or they might have a perfectly legitimate reason for doing it their way ... a reason that either doesn't apply to how you dive, or just something that's different. Nothing wrong with that.

When Billy and I ended our dive we met them at the bench again ... they'd gotten out of the water just a few minutes before we did. I asked how their dive went, and they said they'd had a great time.

Mission accomplished ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[lamont]

We haven't had an gas mismanagement OOA fatality in awhile now, and I don't know that talking about it on the boards is causing the community awareness to go up, but I really can't see that it hurts to talk about it. Even if it starts of with an inflammatory comment in a thread its still people thinking about it. I think bob's approach is going to be better received, but I'd rather see a bunch of yelling and screaming about it than just see silence on the issue.

[spatman]

If you see or hear of someone planning to do something you think puts them in a degree of peril they are possibly unaware of should we just sit silently in the name of tolerance?

"possibly unaware of".

It would probably be best to find out the person's training and skill level by getting to know more about them, even just a little through a few follow up posts, before assuming the person is either a newbie or a moron.

[cardiver]

Or both.....

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk

[Joshua Smith]

Tangfish, are you serious or was that sarcasm? Maybe I'd find that "rule" in the forum guidelines or whatever if I looked into them, but I certainly hope not.

I would think that until new divers stop visiting this board, we should always give constructive criticism (it is, afterall, how we learn and become better divers, isn't that an important goal of this board?). If someone understands gas management and still wants to do it their way, that's absolutely fine and his/her philosophy on gas management should be respected.

If you go back and look at Tangfish's post, you'll see that the entire post is a link to NWDC's Terms Of Service, and that, yes indeed, it is so written. The way I look at it, it's cautioning us NOT to pass judgment too quickly. If someone is planning something dangerous, out of pure ignorance, it's just common sense to say something.(Although, there are polite ways to do this- "you're an idiot", and "you're gonna die" are examples of the wrong approach).

That said, I've seen many examples of divers getting stampeded by the scuba cops on this board. The OP wanted to do a 100' dive, and mentioned he would be using an AL 80. So what? The fact that we're now on our third page of commentary about a benign post says a lot to me. One thing it tells me is that he'll probably never invite anyone to go diving with him on this board again, and who could blame him?

[BASSMAN]

One thing it tells me is that he'll probably never invite anyone to go diving with him on this board again, and who could blame him?

Ouch!
I would dive with him!
After I'm back to diving..."Stupid Back thing!"

[cardiver]

One thing it tells me is that he'll probably never invite anyone to go diving with him on this board again, and who could blame him?

Ouch!
I would dive with him!
After I'm back to diving..."Stupid Back thing!"

When will that be?

[rjarnold]

If you go back and look at Tangfish's post, you'll see that the entire post is a link to NWDC's Terms Of Service, and that, yes indeed, it is so written. The way I look at it, it's cautioning us NOT to pass judgment too quickly. If someone is planning something dangerous, out of pure ignorance, it's just common sense to say something.(Although, there are polite ways to do this- "you're an idiot", and "you're gonna die" are examples of the wrong approach).

That said, I've seen many examples of divers getting stampeded by the scuba cops on this board. The OP wanted to do a 100' dive, and mentioned he would be using an AL 80. So what? The fact that we're now on our third page of commentary about a benign post says a lot to me. One thing it tells me is that he'll probably never invite anyone to go diving with him on this board again, and who could blame him?

Since a lot of it is about the post in question, it tells me that there's something controversial about that post, not about the original poster's "benign" post. Perhaps I should have started a new thread questioning Tangfish's post, but I didn't. It seems more beneficial for such a written statement to be about not harping on a person's decision once questioned. You don't need to be a moron or a newbie to make a mistake. If I screwed up my dates and was diving somewhere in the Tacoma Narrows at a time when there was going to be a ton of current, I'd hope someone might point that out. If I replied and said that I wanted to dive during crazy current, then I'd expect everyone to respect that. At least if I died, you'd know that someone said something, and you'd know that I knew what I was heading into. I really feel that the original statement that Tangfish posted may keep people from speaking up when they probably shouldn't, and it is possible to provide better wording for what you call "scuba police" from stampeding other divers.

[Joshua Smith]

Maybe so. Feel free to take it up with the folks who run the board.

[Sounder]

Maybe so. Feel free to take it up with the folks who run the board.

Rather liberating, eh??

[Tangfish]

Tangfish, are you serious or was that sarcasm? Maybe I'd find that "rule" in the forum guidelines or whatever if I looked into them, but I certainly hope not.

I would think that until new divers stop visiting this board, we should always give constructive criticism (it is, afterall, how we learn and become better divers, isn't that an important goal of this board?). If someone understands gas management and still wants to do it their way, that's absolutely fine and his/her philosophy on gas management should be respected.

Yes, I absolutely am serious about that rule, and it's very clearly spelled out in the TOS. There are many different approaches to diving. As a result, one person or certifying agency may have a completely different standard of what is considered "safe" diving than another, even when it comes down to the color of equipment. I don't want this forum to become a venue for arguments about such inane things, and I firmly believe that every person has the right to dive the way they were instructed and/or the way that they choose to.

Whether or not the OP dives to 100' on an AL80 is a decision that they have to make for themselves. If they are a certified diver and not blatantly exceeding the boundaries of their training and experience, or posting maliciously false safety-related information, then they are just as entitled as anyone else is to posting about their dives. If anyone thinks that certifying agencies or instructors aren't doing their jobs by rating people to dive to X depth with Y certification, then that's a matter to take up with those parties directly.

This forum is not a substitute for proper training in the real world. It can be a good resource in many ways (particularly in finding dive buddies), but it is not and never was intended to be a place where you go and find out whether or not you're capable of doing a particular dive. For that, you should consult your dive instructor.

As far as the possibility of a 15 year old reading about some dive and then going and doing it themselves - this forum is also not a substitute for common sense (adolescent or otherwise) or sound parenting. The same catastrophic scenario could result from 15 year olds learning about car racing, putting mentos in coca cola, operating a backhoe, making human slingshots, etc. on the internet.

Frankly, I find it arrogant and rude when people wag their fingers at others who aren't diving "up to their standards", and offer up unsolicited "constructive criticism". I guess the policy is an extension of my own view on the subject of personal freedom vs. being told what to do "for your own good".

Bottom line: don't tell other people how to dive. Just be a good diver yourself (i.e., set a good example), and if so inclined, offer a helping hand when someone asks for assistance or advice.

New divers who are unsure about things or simply lack experience are greeted warmly and offered friendly advice by NWDC members, whenever they ask for assistance. This is and has always been a great thing about this community. Please don't take it a step too far by treating someone like a n00b in need of counseling if that person doesn't voluntarily identify themselves as such. It's a respect thing.

[Tangfish]

Let this serve as my standing letter of authorization. Members of Northwest Dive Club are hereby granted invitation to critique, advise, council, judge, evaluate, and peer review my diving activities in public forum and in private so long as said activities are conducted for the purpose of improving my skill, personal safety, safety of others around me, and for the enhancement of my diving and diving related experiences. These privileges remain in effect until explicitly revoked. As my friends I expect you to speak up when you see me screwing up.

Ben, you're totally going to get yourself and all of your dive buddies killed with that attitude, man.

(now THAT was sarcasm)

[cardiver]

[CaptnJack]

So its Sunday, the weekend is mostly over - as well as this thread...

Shaker100 how did the dive go?